Re: [Haifux] CD logos
Regarding the first 3 CDs they are truely Redhat CDs. The last CD contains redhat updates and a few more things which are by no means redhat. I do think we should add an inner cover(at least for the updates CD) making it abundantly clear, that this CD was not compiled by RedHat but does contain the RedHat updates(from redhat) and was designed(by haifux) for use on redhat 9 systems. I think if we make it clear enough what we did we should be on solid legal ground. Meir. P.s I didn't hear any other sugestions as for what to do with the CDs. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Haifux] CD logos
Read the Red Hat FAQs. -Original Message- From: Maor Meir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 12:16 PM To: RAVIA Cc: Shachar Shemesh; Haifux Subject: Re: [Haifux] CD logos Regarding the first 3 CDs they are truely Redhat CDs. The last CD contains redhat updates and a few more things which are by no means redhat. I do think we should add an inner cover(at least for the updates CD) making it abundantly clear, that this CD was not compiled by RedHat but does contain the RedHat updates(from redhat) and was designed(by haifux) for use on redhat 9 systems. I think if we make it clear enough what we did we should be on solid legal ground. Meir. P.s I didn't hear any other sugestions as for what to do with the CDs. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Haifux] CD logos
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Haim Ravia wrote: Read the Red Hat FAQs. /me is reading the FAQ. There is nothing unclear about this: The updates CD is not the problem: it is the three RH cds. We, in this case hamakor, which is the legal body, is selling CDs, and getting money. It does not matter that we get little money for it. We are re-distributing RH, with their trademark, which is what is important here. The code is here to redistribute. But they do not let us re-distribute the RED HAT ITSELF. So we can: 1. replace the red hats (e.g. pink tie linux, or ourselves) In this case, the updates CD will be fine as it is. 2. choose another distro. At this point in time, it would be a headache with the updates. 3.Break the law. I do not think this is a good option. This is like when Moore declared that the DVD of Revolution OS will be distributed un-coded (without CSS), and somebody jumped and said: I can burn it, does anybody want a copy. I think we, of all people, should be able to play along, and prove that you can make money from free software. If people insist on getting the RED HAT trademark, when they can have the source, then RED HAT deserve the money. Their trade mark is the one which has earned that. And we are not here to steal it. Not covering my behind, Orna. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Haifux] CD logos
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Orna Agmon wrote: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Haim Ravia wrote: Read the Red Hat FAQs. /me is reading the FAQ. There is nothing unclear about this: The updates CD is not the problem: it is the three RH cds. We, in this case hamakor, which is the legal body, is selling CDs, and getting money. It does not matter that we get little money for it. We are re-distributing RH, with their trademark, which is what is important here. The code is here to redistribute. But they do not let us re-distribute the RED HAT ITSELF. So we can: 1. replace the red hats (e.g. pink tie linux, or ourselves) In this case, the updates CD will be fine as it is. OK, how? we have 300 Redhat CDs, they have the redhat name on logo both on the outside and in the software on them. Throwing them out seems like a bad idea. What did Actcom do with Mandrake? they burned there own Mandrake CDs didn't they? and last year with the redhat CDs? did we break the law then as well? we sold Redhat CDs with the redhat name printed on them and on the software inside. I am trying to think more of what is right then what is legal(mainly because I know very little about legal), It is wrong to take credit for other peoples work, and it is wrong to claim something is someone elses work when it isn't. I think if we make it clear what we did, we should be in the right. However if someone has a practical plan for being legal as well I am listening. Meir. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Haifux] CD logos
Couldn't agree more (although I ache the loss of a potentially good case :) -Original Message- From: Orna Agmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 12:54 PM To: RAVIA Cc: 'Maor Meir'; 'Shachar Shemesh'; 'Haifux' Subject: RE: [Haifux] CD logos On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Haim Ravia wrote: Read the Red Hat FAQs. /me is reading the FAQ. There is nothing unclear about this: The updates CD is not the problem: it is the three RH cds. We, in this case hamakor, which is the legal body, is selling CDs, and getting money. It does not matter that we get little money for it. We are re-distributing RH, with their trademark, which is what is important here. The code is here to redistribute. But they do not let us re-distribute the RED HAT ITSELF. So we can: 1. replace the red hats (e.g. pink tie linux, or ourselves) In this case, the updates CD will be fine as it is. 2. choose another distro. At this point in time, it would be a headache with the updates. 3.Break the law. I do not think this is a good option. This is like when Moore declared that the DVD of Revolution OS will be distributed un-coded (without CSS), and somebody jumped and said: I can burn it, does anybody want a copy. I think we, of all people, should be able to play along, and prove that you can make money from free software. If people insist on getting the RED HAT trademark, when they can have the source, then RED HAT deserve the money. Their trade mark is the one which has earned that. And we are not here to steal it. Not covering my behind, Orna. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD Logos - we have explicit permission
We should prepare a small page saying (a) we give no warranties and (b) This distribution does not include support (either technical or developer) services from Red Hat but that such services may be purchased from Red Hat separately. This page will be given to anyone who buys a CD set. Note that we're charging 25NIS for 4 CDs which is the duplication cost plus less than 5NIS handling cost, which is reasonable. On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alon Altman wrote: From http://www.redhat.com/about/corporate/trademark/guidelines/page9.html : Educational Institutions, Not-For-Profits, Linux User Groups and Affiliated Individuals If you are an educational institution, a not-for-profit organization, a user group, or an individual affiliated with or employed by any of those organizations, Red Hat grants you a trademark license with respect to the RED HAT mark for use with the non-commercial redistribution of Red Hat® Linux® in the form you electronically downloaded it from our FTP site or other authorized electronic download sites or as copied from an original disk from Red Hat or its authorized distributors (either from the boxed set or delivered directly to you by Red Hat or an authorized distributor). We consider non-commercial redistribution to be any distribution for which you charge no more than the cost of replicating the CD and a reasonable handling fee. If any copies are to be distributed to individuals outside your organization, either the label or an accompanying printed document must indicate that: (a) the distribution is provided without any warranties (unless you elect to provide those warranties); and (b) this distribution does not include support (either technical or developer) services from Red Hat but that such services may be purchased from Red Hat separately. If you are making copies available for electronic download from your site, these same statements must be prominently displayed prior to any download being initiated. (Authorized FTP or Electronic Download Sites, please see below.) This permission is not applicable to Red Hat® Enterprise Linux® or any Red Hat subscription product. Of course, you are always permitted to redistribute the code without utilizing Red Hat's trademark so long as you otherwise comply with the GNU General Public License and Red Hat's Trademark Guidelines. Please note that if Red Hat feels that an activity falls outside of this limited license or you are not a qualified individual or entity under this provision, Red Hat reserves the right to revoke this limited license. -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- The goal of Computer Science is to build something that will last at least until we've finished building it. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD Logos - we have explicit permission
This clean the first 3 CDs (we only need to fix the instalee forms now...). We still need to fix the updates CD. On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alon Altman wrote: From http://www.redhat.com/about/corporate/trademark/guidelines/page9.html : Educational Institutions, Not-For-Profits, Linux User Groups and Affiliated Individuals If you are an educational institution, a not-for-profit organization, a user group, or an individual affiliated with or employed by any of those organizations, Red Hat grants you a trademark license with respect to the RED HAT mark for use with the non-commercial redistribution of Red Hat® Linux® in the form you electronically downloaded it from our FTP site or other authorized electronic download sites or as copied from an original disk from Red Hat or its authorized distributors (either from the boxed set or delivered directly to you by Red Hat or an authorized distributor). We consider non-commercial redistribution to be any distribution for which you charge no more than the cost of replicating the CD and a reasonable handling fee. If any copies are to be distributed to individuals outside your organization, either the label or an accompanying printed document must indicate that: (a) the distribution is provided without any warranties (unless you elect to provide those warranties); and (b) this distribution does not include support (either technical or developer) services from Red Hat but that such services may be purchased from Red Hat separately. If you are making copies available for electronic download from your site, these same statements must be prominently displayed prior to any download being initiated. (Authorized FTP or Electronic Download Sites, please see below.) This permission is not applicable to Red Hat® Enterprise Linux® or any Red Hat subscription product. Of course, you are always permitted to redistribute the code without utilizing Red Hat's trademark so long as you otherwise comply with the GNU General Public License and Red Hat's Trademark Guidelines. Please note that if Red Hat feels that an activity falls outside of this limited license or you are not a qualified individual or entity under this provision, Red Hat reserves the right to revoke this limited license. -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Loan-department manager: There isn't any fine print. At these interest rates, we don't need it. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Haifux] CD Logos - we have explicit permission
Well,,, I should have read these pages also :( Thanks, Alon. I imagine Haifux should qualify as a Linux User Group so the changed neede are adding a printed document with the content described below. -Original Message- From: Haifux - Haifa Linux Club [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alon Altman Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:51 PM To: Haifux Subject: [Haifux] CD Logos - we have explicit permission From http://www.redhat.com/about/corporate/trademark/guidelines/pag e9.html : Educational Institutions, Not-For-Profits, Linux User Groups and Affiliated Individuals If you are an educational institution, a not-for-profit organization, a user group, or an individual affiliated with or employed by any of those organizations, Red Hat grants you a trademark license with respect to the RED HAT mark for use with the non-commercial redistribution of Red HatR LinuxR in the form you electronically downloaded it from our FTP site or other authorized electronic download sites or as copied from an original disk from Red Hat or its authorized distributors (either from the boxed set or delivered directly to you by Red Hat or an authorized distributor). We consider non-commercial redistribution to be any distribution for which you charge no more than the cost of replicating the CD and a reasonable handling fee. If any copies are to be distributed to individuals outside your organization, either the label or an accompanying printed document must indicate that: (a) the distribution is provided without any warranties (unless you elect to provide those warranties); and (b) this distribution does not include support (either technical or developer) services from Red Hat but that such services may be purchased from Red Hat separately. If you are making copies available for electronic download from your site, these same statements must be prominently displayed prior to any download being initiated. (Authorized FTP or Electronic Download Sites, please see below.) This permission is not applicable to Red HatR Enterprise LinuxR or any Red Hat subscription product. Of course, you are always permitted to redistribute the code without utilizing Red Hat's trademark so long as you otherwise comply with the GNU General Public License and Red Hat's Trademark Guidelines. Please note that if Red Hat feels that an activity falls outside of this limited license or you are not a qualified individual or entity under this provision, Red Hat reserves the right to revoke this limited license. -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Loan-department manager: There isn't any fine print. At these interest rates, we don't need it. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD Logos - we have explicit permission
On Monday 10 November 2003 13:41, Shachar Raindel wrote: This clean the first 3 CDs (we only need to fix the instalee forms now...). We still need to fix the updates CD. The updates CD does not try to be RH Linux, and it is not a modified version of RH. It is no more then updates, made by Rh and Haifux, which fit RH. There is no problem with it. Ez. On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Alon Altman wrote: From http://www.redhat.com/about/corporate/trademark/guidelines/page9.html : Educational Institutions, Not-For-Profits, Linux User Groups and Affiliated Individuals If you are an educational institution, a not-for-profit organization, a user group, or an individual affiliated with or employed by any of those organizations, Red Hat grants you a trademark license with respect to the RED HAT mark for use with the non-commercial redistribution of Red Hat Linux in the form you electronically downloaded it from our FTP site or other authorized electronic download sites or as copied from an original disk from Red Hat or its authorized distributors (either from the boxed set or delivered directly to you by Red Hat or an authorized distributor). We consider non-commercial redistribution to be any distribution for which you charge no more than the cost of replicating the CD and a reasonable handling fee. If any copies are to be distributed to individuals outside your organization, either the label or an accompanying printed document must indicate that: (a) the distribution is provided without any warranties (unless you elect to provide those warranties); and (b) this distribution does not include support (either technical or developer) services from Red Hat but that such services may be purchased from Red Hat separately. If you are making copies available for electronic download from your site, these same statements must be prominently displayed prior to any download being initiated. (Authorized FTP or Electronic Download Sites, please see below.) This permission is not applicable to Red Hat Enterprise Linux or any Red Hat subscription product. Of course, you are always permitted to redistribute the code without utilizing Red Hat's trademark so long as you otherwise comply with the GNU General Public License and Red Hat's Trademark Guidelines. Please note that if Red Hat feels that an activity falls outside of this limited license or you are not a qualified individual or entity under this provision, Red Hat reserves the right to revoke this limited license. -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 - - -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Loan-department manager: There isn't any fine print. At these interest rates, we don't need it. - - Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD logos
Haim Ravia wrote: While I have my own reservations regarding the Red Hat policy, let me offer you the following simple guideline: what is right = what is legal. Not trying to open an old discussion again, but I would like it explained again, if you can. As far as I understand Trademark law - once RedHat decided a given thing is called RedHat Linux 9, they have no way of forcing me to use or not use it a given way. As long as I'm not trying to attribute the name RedHat 9 to something it isn't, there is nothing they can tell me to do or not to do. The fact that they have an FAQ does not change that, except to agree that certain things are agreed by all to be ok. In particular, if their FAQ claims that I cannot do something, or must do something only under certain conditions, this claim holds no binding on me unless Trademark or Copyright law also says I must get permission from them. Furthermore - RedHat themselves distribute RedHat Linux 9 as free downloads from their site, without any accompanying support. As such, it is them (the trademark holder) that decided that the specific ISOs can be called RedHat Linux 9. Unless copyright law says I cannot distribute them (and I think there is a clear consensus here that this is not the case), I can distribute them AND call them RedHat Linux 9, because that's what they are. Am I missing something here? Is there even a reason that some HTML page on their web site should have a legal holding on me in this case? I'll just add that I heartily recommend that this be the last time we (Hamakor) duplicate any CD that has any trademark owned by RedHat related to it (Fedora included - did you know Fedora comes with a EULA? It tries to enforce those same things that Trademark law doesn't cover via contract. I think RedHat made my list of proprietary software vendors now - they sure act like one). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/ -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD logos
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Furthermore - RedHat themselves distribute RedHat Linux 9 as free downloads from their site, without any accompanying support. As such, it is them (the trademark holder) that decided that the specific ISOs can be called RedHat Linux 9. Unless copyright law says I cannot distribute them (and I think there is a clear consensus here that this is not the case), I can distribute them AND call them RedHat Linux 9, because that's what they are. Am I missing something here? Shachar, Here's the missing link, as far as I understand it: you're not distributing abstract code, but rather a physical medium, and bitwise identity between two media does not make the products identical, just like molecular identity between two products does not make them identical. This is why manufacturers of generic pharmaceuticals are not allowed to use brand names, despite the fact that their products are exact copies of the original. You can consider your copies to be a generic distro, identical to Red Hat in all aspects that are relevant to the user. I don't understand the legal implications of the trademark permission for non-profits. I wonder what would happen if a pharmaceutical company gave a similar exemption, say gave blank permission to use their brand name to all manufacturers who distribute the product at-cost in developing countries; I don't know how this would affect their defense of the trademark against for-profit generic manufacturers. -Ron. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD logos
Nice. I'm impressed. Way to go. On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Alon Altman wrote: Hi, The CD designs for the Linux day are available at http://www.haifux.org/newcomers/cd-logo/ Alon -- Adir Abraham Technion's Advisors Group and Public PC Farms Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Haifa, Israel ICQ# 1841481 Cel# +972-53-243438, +972-55-481245 KeyID: 0xD8DC85C7 Fingerprint: 138D 8F41 7A06 44A0 3DBB 9DC3 FE8B 2658 -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com mQEPAzLax/sAAAEIAK2bI8utornDYd5LdU+/TABNmqXneiXuLx4j8OKD2GjfS/O8 E6nrX69ot4uU5ryjp5h+7VHBZqCQz+8VC8ly2ANtycejAc82gllVC96fbA+Y6uuN uI9aXkwNqhphmmQZIVaOZDRAo9//1zX9r41xY+8rKSQuNcp+FPD/A5Itng0xhsfS KkCV4tT0mGpiydUHFrugk/bouXPYwUHXSnHp/mPdGsjgqipezHPzCWIn3xcJjk2/ tjd5/ym+arWpKW5nvTuvalcMi2DIcEilSrT5NLwgeuh3eqitYOc9WTiMNMvUiVcP sucJkdxNwjEX9MgD/bLY9wT/13brqxk71tjchccAEQEAAbQnQWRpciBBYnJhaGFt IDxhZGlyQHZpcGUudGVjaG5pb24uYWMuaWw+iQEVAwUQMtrH+6sZO9bY3IXHAQGb 0gf9FwrJBKaTP0yvf3+vwtB+9ftS0woz1TawJwflC5EoHJs7D/5GzkAaRV82RSkH P9fSHmM+LUB0huBBK1qtNyXHWIjQTmYwFYC8Oen4q0Fyze7cloSnpD1rVjI0HoCO UU8bbz0Iseizdjhnl2PTItQ+dkKzLcww1jW5iPXOWd1o8/8s2aebhrpDRO8BfAYg H29jhmDtuVQDPgFfkN/kP+xpHQplMN5Qh1oP22f+Wyg8sVvSv8P7cM+88u46FHi3 zvHpVnZKIBtKhksnH1PYXtz7FvS7vA+MbpM47kgmQGL5Ygig0pUUbBCGlzmg2Hvd 262YCdVYNwpIjQWBLJI8orea0Q== =dgNP -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD logos
On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Alon Altman wrote: Hi, The CD designs for the Linux day are available at http://www.haifux.org/newcomers/cd-logo/ Alon Very pretty. I like the updates design more, though. But- what about RH wishing people to avoid the usage of the trademark RedHat when re-distributing it? Is this thing already in order? Or does this relate only to the Enterprise edition? Orna. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] CD logos
Aren't we limited to 3 or 2 colors? I counted few more on that design, and simple dithering filter will make it look really bad. On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Alon Altman wrote: Hi, The CD designs for the Linux day are available at http://www.haifux.org/newcomers/cd-logo/ Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://alon.wox.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint =A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
