Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 +, bluechr...@hotmail.co.uk said: > Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular > as Windows in the desktop market. Does it matter? Google runs on Linux; Amazon runs on Linux; there is considerable pressure from Government for more Public Sector Linux adoption. It isn't going away any time soon. > The majority of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting > with Linux+ with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. Why do you want Linux qualifications? It's a serious question. If the company you have decided you want to work for has said they'll only consider those with an appropriate Linux qualification, fair enough - but I suspect you haven't chosen who you want to work for. So start with that. Research the kinds of companies you want to work for. Contact them. Convince them that you are utterly determined to work with Linux, but you currently lack experience and qualifications, and ask their advice. If you can, arrange an informal chat with a manager there. Ask if you can do a week's work experience there. When you know what is required to get the job you want with the company you want, pursue that. > I would say that I enjoy Linux more Then don't work with Windows. If you do nothing else, do work that you love. > So how did you guys learn Linux? By using it. By setting myself challenges, and solving them. By improving some of the documentation. By breaking it and fixing it. > Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Yes. > Sent from my iPhone Not that dedicated to Linux then, are you? First job, then: find out how to stop your iPhone telling everyone you're using one. I'm serious. We get people applying for jobs, and sending CVs in in Word format. That doesn't (yet) automatically rule them out, but it tells us a lot about them before we've even looked at the CV. -- Love Linux? We want to hear from you! http://www.tiger-computing.co.uk/jobs/linux-support-consultant/ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On 13/02/13 16:31, Ally Biggs wrote: > Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as > Windows in the desktop market. > > Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal > attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration. > > I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently am > having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority of my > thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ with the > eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go down the > Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server 2012 admin > certs. > > Has anyone been in a similar situation? > I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually > feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way > through the GUI in Windows. > > Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I > probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related > tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. > > The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for > everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for > the home user i.e same package manager and packages. > > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average > user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending > hours finding the solution into a community. > > The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often > get a dismissive response. > > Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the > transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a couple > of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. > > So how did you guys learn Linux? > Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key areas > to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I go down > the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me resolve the > tug of war it is driving me mad :) > > > Sent from my iPhone Yes indeed. I chose hardware specialization, reasoning that all kinds of software is developed, to run on hardware, which is primary, and relatively easily replaceable, eg. if your OS of choice, won't wear a particular graphics card, or the fixed disc is too small .. So a hardware specialist basically builds & rebuilds, until they find a good mix, and matches the software to that. It's the hobbyist's approach, originating in garages and sheds Linux is growing - but this is not helped -- rather, hindered, on the one hand, by egotistical showoff-exclusivity, and on the other hand, by the lack of community-minded publicists, prepared to give their precious, irreplaceable time & effort to helping Win-addicts kick their habit, for a far smoother, faster, more device-friendly Linux OS, which doesn't burn out the hardware. The community of Linux users need to move beyond cleverness, and obsession with technicity, back to a humane concern and fellow-feeling for the as-yet ignorant .. We were all there once. But dependency is crippling. So we climbed out of that pit Last week a massive nationwide hacking campaign erupted. The only platform seriously affected, was the M$ WinDoze one. Linux installs seem, so far, relatively unaffected. Whether this is because journalling filesystems are less well-known to the hacktivistes, is not yet clear. But the message is: the OS of the millions, is grossly insecure. Routers notwithstanding ! Files vanished from drives. Enormous clusters of unmoveable files had appeared, and were detected. An IDS is now essential, if a Win system is connected to the net. And that will slow everything to a crawl .. Everyone I know, is in process of being warned to ditch their Win installs, & repair immediately to Linux. ( Free help is gradually being provided ) It is unclear whether the corporates have grasped this. Having been asked, government doesn't seem to know who is responsible. Investigations are currently under way. The findings may well be kept under wraps. SysAdmins have difficult choices facing them. Do they continue supporting what are effectively, legacy ( inherently-insecure ) OSS, acquired in cheap deals, or do they advocate more secure systems, hardening them with encryptions, and all the other paraphernalia of statutory Paranoia Inc. ? About a decade ago, CRYPTOME posted details of several of the NSA hacker holes in the Win registry. None of this ever seemed to affect corporate policie
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
A fun at-home project to amaze yourself and friends is to download XAMPP[1] and use it to run a Drupal[2] CMS web-site on an ageing laptop. Amazing! Good preparation for the sort of thing you mention. ATB, Peter [1] http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html [2] http://drupal.org/ On 13 February 2013 23:17, Ally Biggs wrote: > Thank you for all your replies has kind of made me realise that my true > passion is with Linux. I am going to work through my Linux+ videos, thinking > about having Centos running as the main host with KVM running Debian and > using something lightweight like LXDE or XFCE on the Deb box. > > I think my career goal is to be able to deploy Linux based solutions in a > Windows environment for small start ups / charities. So the eventual which is > a long way off :) is to develop a solid understanding of how to replace > windows networking services and deploy Linux server. > > Vic mentioned earlier to use both the GUi and Cli which I will be doing as > Red Hat seems to have some pretty good inbuilt GUI tools for configuration. > > What are people's thoughts on packages like Webmin? Better not to become to > reliant. Or specialised distros such as SME Server or Zentyal > > What do you run Distro wise and why? > > I have to many questions :) I really should attend a meeting I could talk > about this allday. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 13 Feb 2013, at 22:32, "Lisi" wrote: > >> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote: >>> I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had >>> only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses >>> and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and >>> allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu. >> >> When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I >> printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at >> the socket on the wall. The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out >> your Wisden's and read it for a bit". I then gave him a run through. After >> 3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he >> said: "I don't have to. It just works." More recently he said: "Why do >> people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?" >> >> Lisi >> >> -- >> Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk >> Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire >> LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk >> -- > > -- > Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk > Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire > LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk > -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On 13 Feb 2013 22:31, "Lisi" wrote: > I commented on the fact, and he said: "I don't have to. It just works." More recently he said: "Why do people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?" This is a testament to how much work has gone into Linux in the last few years and how outdated most peoples views are about it. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
Thank you for all your replies has kind of made me realise that my true passion is with Linux. I am going to work through my Linux+ videos, thinking about having Centos running as the main host with KVM running Debian and using something lightweight like LXDE or XFCE on the Deb box. I think my career goal is to be able to deploy Linux based solutions in a Windows environment for small start ups / charities. So the eventual which is a long way off :) is to develop a solid understanding of how to replace windows networking services and deploy Linux server. Vic mentioned earlier to use both the GUi and Cli which I will be doing as Red Hat seems to have some pretty good inbuilt GUI tools for configuration. What are people's thoughts on packages like Webmin? Better not to become to reliant. Or specialised distros such as SME Server or Zentyal What do you run Distro wise and why? I have to many questions :) I really should attend a meeting I could talk about this allday. Sent from my iPhone On 13 Feb 2013, at 22:32, "Lisi" wrote: > On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote: >> I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had >> only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses >> and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and >> allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu. > > When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I > printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at > the socket on the wall. The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out > your Wisden's and read it for a bit". I then gave him a run through. After > 3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he > said: "I don't have to. It just works." More recently he said: "Why do > people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?" > > Lisi > > -- > Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk > Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire > LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk > -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote: > I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had > only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses > and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and > allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu. When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at the socket on the wall. The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out your Wisden's and read it for a bit". I then gave him a run through. After 3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he said: "I don't have to. It just works." More recently he said: "Why do people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?" Lisi -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
Hi Ally, On 13/02/13 16:31, Ally Biggs wrote: Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as Windows in the desktop market. Given Windows has ~90%+ market share, I fail to see how mathematically any other distro can be "as popular" as Windows without Windows disappearing completely. Won't happen. However if your question was "will there be a day when Linux has comparable market share to Windows on the desktop" I'd probably say no, but be hopeful that we can get a better chunk of the market than we currently have. Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu. I'd no sooner finished my tea when he said "ok, I think I have got it all" and I left. I've so far had two support requests from him, which was to clarify a webcam issue with Skype and to confirm that he should be installing updates when prompted to. He's still using it. One persons nightmare is another persons dream. The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for the home user i.e same package manager and packages. Because history, ego, momentum and coprorate requirements. The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending hours finding the solution into a community. Same goes for Windows. It's a giant misconception that "Windows = works", "Linux = OMG! It's broken, I need a nerd!". Ordinary people who use Windows have just the same anxiety about their systems as ordinary people who use Linux. They will speak to a techy nerd at work, or someone in their family for support. Same goes for a non-expert using a smartphone (of any ilk) for the first time. I still get requests for Windows support from my father in law, some years after I told him I didn't want to support it anymore. Some of these issues (poor wifi connection, bad printer support, video driver issues) are _exactly_ the same issues that we have on Linux. The way to fix the issue differs, but it's still the same warm body wearing a geeky t-shirt who fixes it, irrespective of the OS or hardware involved. The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often get a dismissive response. Those people are dicks. Avoid them. :) Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. Depends on the book. This is a good one. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubuntu-Made-Easy-Project-Based-Introduction/dp/1593274254/ref=sr_1_1 So how did you guys learn Linux? Installed it and played with it for oh, uhm 15 years or so. Still not an expert. Cheers, -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 + Ally Biggs wrote: Hello Ally, >The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan >and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your >average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal >or spending hours finding the solution into a community. The /real/ (at least, IMO) problem is that nobody needs any qualifications to be able to buy and/or use a computer. I can think of few, if any, equally complex pieces of technology that do not require some sort of required learning. Most often with a test of competence that needs to be passed before one is allowed to go solo. Cars, aeroplanes, you name it... Microsoft and their ilk like to hide the nuts and bolts of their systems because it means a whole industry is created, purely to rectify the horrendous cock-ups many of the computer illiterate unwashed will perpetrate. Computers are difficult. GUIs just make it *look* simple. Frankly, the worst thing to happen to computers was the WIMP interface. At that point, it became inevitable that there would be shedloads or morons running computers, most of whom I wouldn't trust to run their own baths. LUG (well, any computer group really) members are, of course, not in the category I just outlined. Group members are quite knowledgeable when it comes to computers. Some of them prodigiously so. Many have particular speciality skills too, which allows them to assist those that ask for help when they become stuck. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent" Life's short, don't make a mess of it No Time To Be 21 - The Adverts signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] [Admin] Upcoming meetings
On Wednesday 13 Feb 2013 20:04:27 Chris Dennis wrote: > On 11/02/13 18:57, Tim Brocklehurst wrote: > > In April, we are privileged to be hosted at IBM Hursley. > > Will the April meeting also be a 1pm start? > > cheers > > Chris That is yet to be decided. -- Hampshire Linux User Group Chairman -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] [Admin] Upcoming meetings
On 11/02/13 18:57, Tim Brocklehurst wrote: In April, we are privileged to be hosted at IBM Hursley. Will the April meeting also be a 1pm start? cheers Chris -- Chris Dennis cgden...@btinternet.com Fordingbridge, Hampshire, UK -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
I learned initially by running web services and then by implementing a small-scale Industrial Heater (aka a High Performance Compute Cluster) As others have said, what you learn depends entirely what you try to achieve, and it's the trying to achieve something that you need to focus on. Find something that you're not doing now that you think would be "kinda neat" and then try to work out a way of doing it. It's this sort of mentality that developers embody, and as such I think it is the kind of philosophy to exibit that will get the best results back from "the community". About me: I'm a Web Developer who uses Linux (Ubuntu) 99% of the time for work purposes. At home I am often found using OS X but love that I can still pull-up a bash terminal on that. Other times at home I'm on Ubuntu again. I mainly program in PHP and use shell scripting to support my development work-flow. All work's multitude of servers are based on Linux (Gentoo, but I'm spearheading a movement to get these legacy systems replaced with Ubuntu), using a variety of technologies such as Xen, DRBD, Apache SOLr, Apache HTTP, PHP and mySQL. On 13 February 2013 18:45, Tim Brocklehurst wrote: > Some nice fodder for the debate here! Perhaps you'd like to speak Ally. > > On Wednesday 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote: > > Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular > as > > Windows in the desktop market. > > Depends what the "desktop" market is, and what you intend to do with it. I > see > a sort of power-user/home-user split being driven by Microsoft, but I don't > know where this will get them. I use both (Linux & windows) at work, mainly > for Legacy reasons and 1 piece of CAD software. At home I use Linux > (more-or- > less) exclusively. > > > Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal > > attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration. > > > > I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently > > am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority > > of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ > > with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go > > down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server > > 2012 admin certs. > > Do both if you can. If not, improve your Linux skills. However, you may > find > yourself swearing at Windows servers. Also take note that both these > systems > are not things that can be learnt quickly (Some time ago I estimated that > the > kernel took 2000 man-years to write, so you can't expect it to be quick to > learn). You can only learn about parts of these systems by solving your > specific problems. > > > Has anyone been in a similar situation? > Not really, the decision was pretty clear for me when I lost a load of > work at > Uni. Regardless of the quality of Linux I was moving from XP. > > > I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I > actually > > feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way > > through the GUI in Windows. > > I like the CLI; also scripting. > > > Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I > > probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related > > tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. > > Depens what the client tasks are. You may find that you don't need Windows > at > all. > > > The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you > have > > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more > for > > everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution > for > > the home user i.e same package manager and packages. > > Awareness? Learning curve? Pre-installation? And many users don't care what > they use, as long as it works for them. > > > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and > > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your > > average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or > > spending hours finding the solution into a community. > > As others have said, that's rare, and, if they're running Windows, often > the > point at which a home user buys a new computer. You are using Linux and > there > IS a helpful community, but it doesn't mean that there are no problems, > only > that there is a chance of fixing things. > > > The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to > be > > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole > > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you > often > > get a dismissive response. > > I try not to be dismissive, but an amount of initial effort goes a long > way. > Think of it like helping a student do homework. Are you willing to give > advice? yes. Are you willing to do it for them? No. > > > Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you ar
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 + Ally Biggs wrote: > So how did you guys learn Linux? by installing it and using it!! > Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key > areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration > if I go down the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please > help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :) I have never used Windows on any computer I have owned (other than the ones my wife uses and I have to fix occasionally for her) I migrated from CP/M to OS/2 to an early version of Linux on a stack of floppies I'd downloaded. I made a permanent move from OS/2 Warp when IBM decided not to support home users any longer and have never regretted the move. As most oldtimers in HantsLUG know I am a bit of a Debian fan(atic). I use the command line for most admin tasks, I do use gui tools from time to time but mc is my best friend ;-) I am not a programmer of any sort and am only just about capable of managing my vps at Bitfolk without needing much help. But I like it that Linux avoids the need to me to pay the Microsoft tax! Having said that I do have a Mac Mini and recently paid for an upgrade to OS/X Snow Leopard. I don't use it a lot but it was a gift and it is enough like a unix box for me to find it acceptable. -- John Lewis Debian & the GeneWeb genealogical data server -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
Some nice fodder for the debate here! Perhaps you'd like to speak Ally. On Wednesday 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote: > Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as > Windows in the desktop market. Depends what the "desktop" market is, and what you intend to do with it. I see a sort of power-user/home-user split being driven by Microsoft, but I don't know where this will get them. I use both (Linux & windows) at work, mainly for Legacy reasons and 1 piece of CAD software. At home I use Linux (more-or- less) exclusively. > Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal > attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration. > > I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently > am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority > of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ > with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go > down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server > 2012 admin certs. Do both if you can. If not, improve your Linux skills. However, you may find yourself swearing at Windows servers. Also take note that both these systems are not things that can be learnt quickly (Some time ago I estimated that the kernel took 2000 man-years to write, so you can't expect it to be quick to learn). You can only learn about parts of these systems by solving your specific problems. > Has anyone been in a similar situation? Not really, the decision was pretty clear for me when I lost a load of work at Uni. Regardless of the quality of Linux I was moving from XP. > I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually > feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way > through the GUI in Windows. I like the CLI; also scripting. > Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I > probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related > tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. Depens what the client tasks are. You may find that you don't need Windows at all. > The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for > everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for > the home user i.e same package manager and packages. Awareness? Learning curve? Pre-installation? And many users don't care what they use, as long as it works for them. > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your > average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or > spending hours finding the solution into a community. As others have said, that's rare, and, if they're running Windows, often the point at which a home user buys a new computer. You are using Linux and there IS a helpful community, but it doesn't mean that there are no problems, only that there is a chance of fixing things. > The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often > get a dismissive response. I try not to be dismissive, but an amount of initial effort goes a long way. Think of it like helping a student do homework. Are you willing to give advice? yes. Are you willing to do it for them? No. > Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the > transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a > couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. Yes and no. The documentation that is there is often quite good in many cases (I cite the QT4 documentation as the best ever written, and the MSDN documentation as some of the worst, second only to CodeGear (formerly Borland C++ Builder), which says "See the MSDN Docs" throughout). However, it might not be simple, and that's often because what you're doing isn't simple. One thing to note here is that error messages in Linux are often a lot more helpful than they are in Windows. > So how did you guys learn Linux? & Has anyone else made the transition > from Windows? I needed to do an interfacing job, and I'd just lost a load of work in XP, so there was some impetus. From there, I tried to understand and solve problems as they arose. Learning happens over time. >Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. > Need some inspiration if I go down the Linux route would I be missing > out on much? Please help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :) Command line is important (obviously) but understand your shell (e.g. bash), and how to script things. Networking is also important, not only at the interface level, but doing som
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On 13 February 2013 16:31, Ally Biggs wrote: > > I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I > actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking > my way through the GUI in Windows. > Then it is worth considering following the path you find more enjoyable, at least then you will like your job better and thus work harder at it. The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for > everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for > the home user i.e same package manager and packages. > As others have said, this is because no two people want the same thing. Allot of people love Ubuntu, which is probably the closest thing to what you describe, but allot of others hate it and refuse to use it. > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average > user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending > hours finding the solution into a community. > I don't see this with most of the modern consumer focused distros out there, ubuntu and similar work very hard to make all hardware just work out the box with very little fiddling Unlike windows where you need to get the latest driver from the manufacture before you can even get the device to work. Most of the problems these days are with devices from manufacturers that refuse to play well with linux, there is not much that linux can do about these but despite that they do try hard to get things to work. Since using linux I have had far less problems with drivers then I ever had with windows, I have never needed to purge and reinstall a driver nor do I even need to mess around with config files anymore. The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often > get a dismissive response. > This is not true, or rather it entirely depends on which linux communality you are part of. For example, the community on http://www.kubuntuforums.net is very very helpful and friendly, quite often going that extra mile to help people understand the problem and help them learn more. But other communities such as the Gentoo one can be allot harsher as they expect you to be a more advanced user to begin with. Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the > transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a > couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. > Checkout the Archlinux wiki, it is the best linux wiki around for finding out how something works generally in a very easy to understand fashion. If you are intrested in learning how linux works, rather then just how to use linux I highly recomend attempting to install archlinux in a vm. This will teach you allot about how other distros do things as it does not hide the technical details from the end user, but also keeps their architecture simple and easy to understand. Even just reading their beginners guide (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners'_Guide) you will learn allow about how linux works, which will help you to understand other systems as well. > So how did you guys learn Linux? > Mainly by trial and lots of error :D > Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key > areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I > go down the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me > resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :) All of my computers now run Linux and only Linux and I am much happier for it, Linux can do everything that a windows computer can do and more... Even mainstream gaming is coming to lieux thanks to Valve and Steam and Linux has an alternative for most windows software out there that is often even better then the windows equivalent :) You should focus on what aspects of the system you like, there is no reliance on understanding any one side of linux before you learn another. Though having a good understanding of the shell is a good place to start. Personally I like the KDE environment, so use distros that support this well, I have found kubuntu to be good in the past, but now use Archlinux almost exclusively as I find its simple design and transparency much nicer for a power user and I can now get it to do what ever I want will little to no fuss. -- Michael Daffin -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
Than you for providing me with some insight :) I started with Windows 3.1 and used it since well apart from Windows ME, Vista and 8 didn't really get on with those. Windows 7 was pretty solid for everyday use. I never really had a issue with it and does everything I need it to do. Windows 8 I have heard if you turn off the metro and add the start menu back is a faster booting more stable version of 7 I may give it another go oneday. My first Linux Distro was Debian and then Ubuntu I am now using Red Hat. ( centos)The best out of the box desktop experience I have had for ease of use so far would be Mint. I abandoned Ubuntu after they implemented unity I really couldn't get on with it. Do you ever think Microsoft would go Open source? Or release a minimal cut down version of windows and you pay to add the extras or am I'm talking nonsense because Billy Gates would be losing to much money. I see with there latest server products they have technologies like server core and powershell are they trying to become more like Linux with minimal headless server deployments and administration via scripting. What are your distros of choice and why? Sent from my iPhone On 13 Feb 2013, at 17:34, "Lisi" wrote: > On Wednesday 13 February 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote: >> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as >> Windows in the desktop market. > > It will take a long while in the consumerist "west", but the developing > countries are starting to use it. (Brazil, China, India to name but a few - > but a few who comprise a large percentage of the world population. > >> Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I >> probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related >> tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. >> >> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have >> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for >> everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for >> the home user i.e same package manager and packages. > > Because it is free as in libre? If I don't want to use Ubuntu (and I don't) > I > can just use something else. Package managers are not all identical as you > own. But how will you standardise when things are free? Vic would probably > take up arms to support the rpm system, as I would the apt. The important > point is that we have the choice. > >> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and >> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average >> user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending >> hours finding the solution into a community. > > There are several good GUI installers, and the shit hits the fan rather > rarely. There is a myth around that Linux drivers are impossible to > find/load, but Windows ones are easy. Last time i installed Windows XP (I > lead a life that is blessedly free of Microsoft) I had to find, download and > burn practically every driver separately. It was a nightmare. I have had > the odd problem with Linux, but nothing like that. Life is slightly more > onerous since my chosen distro Debian decided that th installer had to be > entirely free in both senses of the word, but there are still easy solutions. > >> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be >> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole >> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often >> get a dismissive response. > > In my experience, no-one expects anyone to know anything. They may make > incorrect assumptions, but mostly list members are extremely helpful. You do > get the occasional dismissive idiot, but they are not the norm and I haven't > noticed that attitude on this list for some time. > > Say what you have done to help tourself, and say that you would need help > with > any suggestion that needs the CLI, and you will get a lot of help. Older > people may forget that you have probably had very little experience of the > CLI. Those of us who are longest in the tooth had been using computers for > some time before the GUI was invented. > >> Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the >> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a >> couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. > > You must have picked up the wrong books. I reckon that if I can switch to > Linux, anybody can. There is a *very* easy book in the LUG library, I can't > remember the name. When you want to know what something is, look it up in a > very easy book. That will not give you the answer, but it will give you > enough understanding to be able to look it up in something more informative. > > I made the transition from Windows with an enormous sigh of relief. No-one >
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote: > Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as > Windows in the desktop market. It will take a long while in the consumerist "west", but the developing countries are starting to use it. (Brazil, China, India to name but a few - but a few who comprise a large percentage of the world population. > Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I > probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related > tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. > > The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for > everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for > the home user i.e same package manager and packages. Because it is free as in libre? If I don't want to use Ubuntu (and I don't) I can just use something else. Package managers are not all identical as you own. But how will you standardise when things are free? Vic would probably take up arms to support the rpm system, as I would the apt. The important point is that we have the choice. > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average > user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending > hours finding the solution into a community. There are several good GUI installers, and the shit hits the fan rather rarely. There is a myth around that Linux drivers are impossible to find/load, but Windows ones are easy. Last time i installed Windows XP (I lead a life that is blessedly free of Microsoft) I had to find, download and burn practically every driver separately. It was a nightmare. I have had the odd problem with Linux, but nothing like that. Life is slightly more onerous since my chosen distro Debian decided that th installer had to be entirely free in both senses of the word, but there are still easy solutions. > The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often > get a dismissive response. In my experience, no-one expects anyone to know anything. They may make incorrect assumptions, but mostly list members are extremely helpful. You do get the occasional dismissive idiot, but they are not the norm and I haven't noticed that attitude on this list for some time. Say what you have done to help tourself, and say that you would need help with any suggestion that needs the CLI, and you will get a lot of help. Older people may forget that you have probably had very little experience of the CLI. Those of us who are longest in the tooth had been using computers for some time before the GUI was invented. > Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the > transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a > couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. You must have picked up the wrong books. I reckon that if I can switch to Linux, anybody can. There is a *very* easy book in the LUG library, I can't remember the name. When you want to know what something is, look it up in a very easy book. That will not give you the answer, but it will give you enough understanding to be able to look it up in something more informative. I made the transition from Windows with an enormous sigh of relief. No-one who has not had to live with Windows 95 can understand the true benefit of Linux. My husband tells people: "When she used Windows she was always getting angry with the computer. Now she is using Linux she has to find something else to get angry about." > So how did you guys learn Linux? Took the plunge and leant heavily on HantsLUG. I found that they were endlessly patient and were prepared to say things in words of one syllable, and, if necessary, several times. I'm a slow learner compared with many on this list, so I must frequently have driven them mad. > Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Yes. And I would think that many (most?) have. Lisi -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
On 02/13/2013 04:31 PM, Ally Biggs wrote: Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as Windows in the desktop market. Not going to happen Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration. I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server 2012 admin certs. There are other Linux certifications. LPI is the other one that comes to mind, but RH seems to be the most recognised. Has anyone been in a similar situation? I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way through the GUI in Windows. Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for the home user i.e same package manager and packages. 1. Why does everybody have the "must use Windows" urge? Default choice, what they use at work, what their friends / family use. It feels like a safe choice. Anything else is for geeks. Also alien mind control. Have you seen Men in Black? Steve Balmer, huh? Not much of a disguise etc. 2. Why don't developers standardise? It's not the nature of free software. Nobody in charge. Everybody has their own ideas of how to do stuff. I wouldn't have it any other way. The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending hours finding the solution into a community. The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often get a dismissive response. Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. So how did you guys learn Linux? Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I go down the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :) Most people learned by using it, bit by bit. Try different distros. Try different desktop environments You can't learn everything at once - figure out how to do things that interest you, so software related to music, graphics, games, or whatever. Use the command line, you'll get used to it. I'm constantly frustrated when GUI tools don't work the way I want them to. Shell scripts are amazingly useful for odd admin jobs. Sent from my iPhone -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular > as Windows in the desktop market. Yes. Not for a while, for sure, but eventually, GNU/Linux will be pervasive. Android/Linux is already getting there. I used to think this would take tens of years, but Microsoft seems to be falling over itself to upset users lately... > I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently > am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority > of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ > with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go > down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server > 2012 admin certs. As far as a career goes, knowing your way round the latest Windows Server will help. Just don't expect it to be a path to instant riches - there are many people out there with those qualifications. Unix-type skills generally command a higher salary, although the work can be harder to find. > I > actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking > my way through the GUI in Windows. Bear in mind that the CLI is not the only way to do things in Linux. It is my preference, but it tends to frighten the horses if you do too much of it in front of a customer. > The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for > everyday use. Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. > Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for > the home user i.e same package manager and packages. Because no-one can determine, for all mankind, what such a distribution would be. Canonical has tried to do something like that, and many people like their distribution. I'm not among that number, so if I get a choice, I'll usually use something else. For any preference you might have, I'll find you ten people who hate it with a passion... > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your > average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or > spending hours finding the solution into a community. That's old, stinky bait someone's thrown you. It's incredibly rare to need to do anything like that anymore. I frequently fix Windows driver problems by using a Linux distribution to get the machine online to download the necessary drivers... > The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often > get a dismissive response. That tends to be because someone thinks you're not trying. If you show you've put the effort in, most (not all, obviously) of the community will fall over itself to help (although some suggestions are not quite as helpful as the poster though they would be). If your request comes over as "my machine is broke, fix it", you'll get short shrift. It's just a case of remembering that these people are putting in their valuable time and skills to help out free of charge; they have no interest in becoming someone's servant. > Documentation is horrendous aswell That's certainly true. > So how did you guys learn Linux? Found a rubbish old machine. Installed RHL on it. Thought up a few projects to do with it. > Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Several times :-) > Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Learn to break down complex problems into component parts. The "Unix Way" is about having each piece of code do one thing, and do it well. You then combine those components to create your natty $thing. HTH Vic. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
[Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice
Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as Windows in the desktop market. Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration. I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server 2012 admin certs. Has anyone been in a similar situation? I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way through the GUI in Windows. Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for the home user i.e same package manager and packages. The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending hours finding the solution into a community. The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often get a dismissive response. Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache. So how did you guys learn Linux? Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I go down the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :) Sent from my iPhone -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
