Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On 1 July 2012 22:19, Stephen Davies stephen.dav...@ultraconsulting.co.ukwrote: As a professional software developer who has been writing programms since the days of Card Decks, George 3 , SOFOR and paper tape, I find this latest craze on desktops (Gnome 3, Unity Windows 8) rather depressing. (Ignoring the 'touchy feely' of touchscreens that everyone seems to rave ove these days) If they had been around at the birth of GUI/Windowing systems I would have understood them. Now IMHO, this searching and every icon on the desktop idea is frankly so silly, it beggars belief. Just to add some balance to the thread - I recently installed Ubuntu 12.04 on my cousins laptop. It had Windows 7 on it which for some reason can get out on the network but none of the web browsers get a connection - I suspect a virus is causing problems and this was borne out by a malware scan. I offered to install Ubuntu in a dual-boot fashion. I then installed Chrome and Skype (test call made and works using in-built mic and webcam), locked them both in the left-hand launcher and job done. Suspend and resume also works cleanly. All easy, quick and without fuss (I was thankful that Ubuntu made it easy to create a live USB to install from). All in all pretty damn good just works-ness. Her 10 year old son (separate user account created) also took to it and found his way around (finding apps, changing background and even installing things from the Software Centre himself without problems). I think it is these guys that Canonical are aiming for and this is something Alan Pope was trying to highlight in the other thread. Anyway, now she has a working laptop and is happy (the only slight gripe being lack of Facebook Connect in Skype which Windows Skype has). I was glad that there was available a nice looking modern Linux, easy-to-use distro to come-to-the-rescue of non-techie users (fluffies) like this. I could have installed my own distro-of-choice Debian Squeeze on there and everything would also be fine... but then I'd have to fiddle with installing a back-ported version of iceweasel to get smooth fonts back, and faff around getting users to log-in without a password and a bunch of other things to make it more usable for fluffies. This is stuff that we put up with but many others will not. -- GPG Key fingerprint = B323 477E F6AB 4181 9C65 F637 BC5F 7FCC 9CC9 CC7F “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” - Indian political and spiritual leader Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
I was glad that there was available a nice looking modern Linux, easy-to-use distro to come-to-the-rescue of non-techie users (fluffies) like this. I could have installed my own distro-of-choice Debian Squeeze on there and everything would also be fine... but then I'd have to fiddle with installing a back-ported version of iceweasel to get smooth fonts back, and faff around getting users to log-in without a password and a bunch of other things to make it more usable for fluffies. This is stuff that we put up with but many others will not. Interesting. Personally use Debian Wheezy (current testing). I have no gripe with iceweasel's fonts, though I may be less piccy than others, standard install, straight out of the repository. Log-in without password is not hard with either GDM or KDM. And to be honest, password-less login isn't something we all want enabled by default. There are many different options. That's important. There are also a lot of software houses (both proprietary and FOSS) who have an idealised view of how the user should be working, without actually appreciating the requirements that have led to the user working the way they do. Yes, a lot of the interface hardware has been around for a long time. And much of it is very poor for interactive display terminals (for lecture controls for instance). However, it is brilliant when it comes to coding, and engineering type jobs. PLEASE can we realise, that just because there is a new way to do something that is not in itself a compelling argument for doing it. It is however, sensible to consider how we might support it, and add that support into the back-end code. Optional front-ends are great, forcing a front-end on users that they don't like will lose you both current and potential users. It has been mentioned that KDE4 was buggy. Yes, the first release was. However, KDE4 looked very much like KDE3 with some nicer artwork, and (in my opinion) a much-improved launcher (which still has a switch to classic option). The back-end improvements were considerable, but the front-end was familiar. That was why people stuck with it (and many didn't move until about 4.2 anyway). Cheers all, Tim B. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
Interesting. Personally use Debian Wheezy (current testing). I have no gripe with iceweasel's fonts, though I may be less piccy than others, standard install, straight out of the repository. Log-in without password is not hard with either GDM or KDM. And to be honest, password-less login isn't something we all want enabled by default. Just wanted to clarify: I use Chrome almost exclusively. The Iceweasel thing is to address ugly font rendering system-wide: http://lovingthepenguin.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/squeeze-fonts-firefox-update.html Log-in without password I found a hassle with Debian. I had to edit /*etc/pam.d/gdm3, add the user to nopasswdlogin group and finally delete their password if they had one set. * * * *I don't want it by default but it would be good to make it easy. This is where Ubuntu excels - in making it easier for fluffies (the Ubuntu download and install security updates automatically thing is another good example). * * * *Yes security is important but there are use cases where no password is fine. I wanted passwordless login for the 10 year old in the example above but not the adult user. However I do enable password less logins on my own machines for my wife and daughter.* -- GPG Key fingerprint = B323 477E F6AB 4181 9C65 F637 BC5F 7FCC 9CC9 CC7F “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” - Indian political and spiritual leader Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On Wednesday 04 July 2012 18:14:08 Imran Chaudhry wrote: Log-in without password I found a hassle with Debian. I set this up regularly for my husband, my granddaughter and myself. I have never had a problem. (kdm, kdm-trinity, gdm with LXDE. also Lubuntu, but I don't remember whether it was there by default or I set it.) Lisi -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 15:18:17 +0100 Ian l...@grody.me.uk wrote: Windowmaker. Has stayed the same for many blue moons. No frills, faffing or fiddling. Ah! Windowmaker, my favourite UI for many years and it was only the complete lack of development that induced me to switch to Debian's default (Gnome) when I moved from 32 bit to 64 bit hardware and had to do a new install for the first time since switching to Debian from RH. When Gnome3 came along and I found it unusable I tried out xfce and lxde and it was, I think, lxde that I liked best, partly because it had a windowmaker feel in having menus pop up with a left click on the desktop. When I used OS/2, before switching to Linux, I'd purchased an alternative desktop from somewhere (I just found the original licence - ObjectDesktop) and that gave lots of reconfigurability that wasn't in the basic Warp. I was quite surprised to get an email from the supplier a couple of years back asking if I wanted an update. -- John Lewis Debian the GeneWeb genealogical data server -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On 02/07/2012 15:18, Ian wrote: Windowmaker. Has stayed the same for many blue moons. No frills, faffing or fiddling. tvtwm? -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On 03/07/12 12:31, john lewis wrote: When Gnome3 came along and I found it unusable I had similar issues. I was happy in Gnome 2 land when rumours of 'Gnome-shell' begsm to surface. Eventually it was available to test etc...so I did. Shortly thereafter I switched to KDE 4 (which funnily enough I'd switched from KDE 3.5 to gnome 2 as I found KDE 4 to be a buggy mess) Fast forward a few years and frustrated with some KDE issues I thought I'd give Gnome 3 a try...and after a week or 2 I found myself liking it. I now use it as my main desktop. As for Unity, I gave it a trial for 2 weeks on 11.10 and just didn't like it, so I'll stick with Gnome 3. Just personal preference, and that's what I like about Linux..not held to one desktop. It could be worse, look at Metro... Glenn -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
One thing I have learned (particularly since I have joined in the Ubuntu QA testing effort for 12.10): never say 'never.' -- Rgds RC Robin Catling Full Circle Podcast On 1 July 2012 23:20, Tim Brocklehurst t...@engineering.selfip.org wrote: Very much with you on this, guys. Touchscreens have thier place, notably for small displays or kiosks (or other places where separate mice etc. are impractical), and the GUI design does change to suit them - as it should. However, the rest of the time (in my case, as near to all the time as makes no odds) I use a monitor, keyboard and mouse. Now, I may be told that this is archaic, but it's actually a pretty good solution which is quick and accurate. And this allows for small icons, and more real-estate for programs. Another thought, you remember the way that RiscOS (particularly 3.7) handled applications? a folder with a ! at the start of the name? and a toolbox of applications on the iconbar? Let's revisit that. That system was nice. At the moment, I'm glad that I'm using KDE. It seems to be an island of sanity in a sea of who can out-do each other lunacy. My 2p. Tim B. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:20:45 +0100, Tim Brocklehurst t...@engineering.selfip.org wrote: Another thought, you remember the way that RiscOS (particularly 3.7) handled applications? a folder with a ! at the start of the name? and a toolbox of applications on the iconbar? Let's revisit that. That system was nice. Actually, the '!' was optional, and a feature of the UI not the backend OS. There were some hacks which allowed you to create application folders which didn't start with a '!'. But it's all very dated now. I still miss the save UX from RISC OS however - drag an icon from your application to the file window in order to save works really well when you have several different applications working out of one directory. RISC OS was probably one reason why I still insist on sloppy mouse focus. The click to focus of Unity (which you can't fix because of where the menus are) is the one thing that prevents me from considering using it. Move the menus and enable sloppy focus, and I'd probably be willing to consider using Unity. -- Be seeing you, Sam. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
Windowmaker. Has stayed the same for many blue moons. No frills, faffing or fiddling. I do miss the old risc oS ui, as well as the ui in OS/2 warp. The guis these days are going the way of windows and has put me off using them. I still use KDE 2.5.x (kwin on wmaker) as its clean, simple and totally customisable. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Samuel Penn s...@glendale.org.uk wrote: On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:20:45 +0100, Tim Brocklehurst t...@engineering.selfip.org wrote: Another thought, you remember the way that RiscOS (particularly 3.7) handled applications? a folder with a ! at the start of the name? and a toolbox of applications on the iconbar? Let's revisit that. That system was nice. Actually, the '!' was optional, and a feature of the UI not the backend OS. There were some hacks which allowed you to create application folders which didn't start with a '!'. But it's all very dated now. I still miss the save UX from RISC OS however - drag an icon from your application to the file window in order to save works really well when you have several different applications working out of one directory. RISC OS was probably one reason why I still insist on sloppy mouse focus. The click to focus of Unity (which you can't fix because of where the menus are) is the one thing that prevents me from considering using it. Move the menus and enable sloppy focus, and I'd probably be willing to consider using Unity. -- Be seeing you, Sam. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk _ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
[Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
As a professional software developer who has been writing programms since the days of Card Decks, George 3 , SOFOR and paper tape, I find this latest craze on desktops (Gnome 3, Unity Windows 8) rather depressing. (Ignoring the 'touchy feely' of touchscreens that everyone seems to rave ove these days) If they had been around at the birth of GUI/Windowing systems I would have understood them. Now IMHO, this searching and every icon on the desktop idea is frankly so silly, it beggars belief. In 'no' work mode, I use (like most people ) a set of apps that number no more than say 10. Email, Web, Skype, Bittorrent etc I could live with the methodology of the new interfaces if I could have the old menus for those times that I need something out of the ordinary and have ho idea of the executable or icon but I know it belongs in a group associated with a product. A hice hierarcihial tree structure. Very Logical. In work mode the standard set of apps I use goes up considerably. Not all are 'installed via traditional installers in order to save time, I use (on windows Quick Launch (yes you can get it back even on Windows 7/Server 2008) and the Gnome 2 launchpad. One click of the mouse and The app starts. Now what could be more logical or simpler than that? Yet the GUI - Those who must be obeyed Overlords have deemed that I am no longer fit to have this nice easy to use facility. It is almost as if they are telling me that I'm about to be pensioned off so I am only fit to use a Fisher Price Interface. Yes, many of you are thinking that I'm a grumpy old man. That is probably true but IMHO, these designers have taken something that wasn't totally broker and made it only fit for the great trashcan in the sky. I know I'm fighting a losing battle and very soon you won't be able to buy a new computer without one or other of these 'Tellytubby' interfaces or even remove what the manufacturer has installed for you without fear of a knock at the door from the IP Police (my name is not winston smith) but I know one this:- 1) I will never buy a computer that forces me to use Windows 8/Windows-RT Windows 7/Server 2008 will be the last offereings from Microsoft that I ever use. 2) I will never use a computer that has Unity or Gnome 3 configured as the primary Interface unless I can configure it to use something a bit saner and more logical. A plague on all their houses. Stephen D -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
I agree I hate the metro interface, Why Microsoft have decided to include it in There next server o/s god knows, I hate Unity aswell and prefer the look and feel of Gnome 2.0 ( Centos) as I have no intention of owning a tablet I won't be buying a Windows 8 device, Will be using Win 7, Centos and Debian on and will prob invest in a Google nexus 7 when they launch and am still trying to get my hands on a raspberry pi. Keep the Gui simple even better switch it off and use the cli :) Sent from my iPhone On 1 Jul 2012, at 22:19, Stephen Davies stephen.dav...@ultraconsulting.co.uk wrote: As a professional software developer who has been writing programms since the days of Card Decks, George 3 , SOFOR and paper tape, I find this latest craze on desktops (Gnome 3, Unity Windows 8) rather depressing. (Ignoring the 'touchy feely' of touchscreens that everyone seems to rave ove these days) If they had been around at the birth of GUI/Windowing systems I would have understood them. Now IMHO, this searching and every icon on the desktop idea is frankly so silly, it beggars belief. In 'no' work mode, I use (like most people ) a set of apps that number no more than say 10. Email, Web, Skype, Bittorrent etc I could live with the methodology of the new interfaces if I could have the old menus for those times that I need something out of the ordinary and have ho idea of the executable or icon but I know it belongs in a group associated with a product. A hice hierarcihial tree structure. Very Logical. In work mode the standard set of apps I use goes up considerably. Not all are 'installed via traditional installers in order to save time, I use (on windows Quick Launch (yes you can get it back even on Windows 7/Server 2008) and the Gnome 2 launchpad. One click of the mouse and The app starts. Now what could be more logical or simpler than that? Yet the GUI - Those who must be obeyed Overlords have deemed that I am no longer fit to have this nice easy to use facility. It is almost as if they are telling me that I'm about to be pensioned off so I am only fit to use a Fisher Price Interface. Yes, many of you are thinking that I'm a grumpy old man. That is probably true but IMHO, these designers have taken something that wasn't totally broker and made it only fit for the great trashcan in the sky. I know I'm fighting a losing battle and very soon you won't be able to buy a new computer without one or other of these 'Tellytubby' interfaces or even remove what the manufacturer has installed for you without fear of a knock at the door from the IP Police (my name is not winston smith) but I know one this:- 1) I will never buy a computer that forces me to use Windows 8/Windows-RT Windows 7/Server 2008 will be the last offereings from Microsoft that I ever use. 2) I will never use a computer that has Unity or Gnome 3 configured as the primary Interface unless I can configure it to use something a bit saner and more logical. A plague on all their houses. Stephen D -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
On 01/07/12 22:19, Stephen Davies wrote: As a professional software developer who has been writing programms since the days of Card Decks, George 3 , SOFOR and paper tape, I find this latest craze on desktops (Gnome 3, Unity Windows 8) rather depressing. (Ignoring the 'touchy feely' of touchscreens that everyone seems to rave ove these days) If they had been around at the birth of GUI/Windowing systems I would have understood them. Now IMHO, this searching and every icon on the desktop idea is frankly so silly, it beggars belief. In 'no' work mode, I use (like most people ) a set of apps that number no more than say 10. Email, Web, Skype, Bittorrent etc I could live with the methodology of the new interfaces if I could have the old menus for those times that I need something out of the ordinary and have ho idea of the executable or icon but I know it belongs in a group associated with a product. A hice hierarcihial tree structure. Very Logical. I have now got used to Gnome 3 and can understand why they have moved on (I started using Unix 28 years ago). The hierarchical menu system is just old hat now and a more common interface for mobiles and PCs makes sense. Just type what you are looking for and the icons appear, like email or internet. There are some annoyances but I'm sure these will be fixed in later builds. The gone-shell-extensions Application Menu can add the old system back for the die-hards. The interface is aimed at simplicity and I'm sure new users will find it easier to use. John. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] My 2p on the GUI 'Wars'
Very much with you on this, guys. Touchscreens have thier place, notably for small displays or kiosks (or other places where separate mice etc. are impractical), and the GUI design does change to suit them - as it should. However, the rest of the time (in my case, as near to all the time as makes no odds) I use a monitor, keyboard and mouse. Now, I may be told that this is archaic, but it's actually a pretty good solution which is quick and accurate. And this allows for small icons, and more real-estate for programs. Another thought, you remember the way that RiscOS (particularly 3.7) handled applications? a folder with a ! at the start of the name? and a toolbox of applications on the iconbar? Let's revisit that. That system was nice. At the moment, I'm glad that I'm using KDE. It seems to be an island of sanity in a sea of who can out-do each other lunacy. My 2p. Tim B. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
