Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
On Thu, 2012-07-05 at 21:40 +0100, Gordon Scott wrote: No, it hasn't. The option to select which desktop to use at logon time is there and always has been in every release. I'd never, ever, noticed any of it, presumably because when they appear, I'm looking at the password box and I have to say that they're not exactly conspicuous. On my large screens, it's out of my main field of view. It's occurs to me that this is exacerbated by my wearing varifocal glasses, so that things out of the main field of view are also slightly defocussed. That doesn't happen on smartphones, though might on tablets. Gordon. -- Gordon Scottwww.gscott.co.uk 01256-476547 0794-1958207 -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
On 04/07/2012 23:34, Leszek Kobiernicki 1 wrote: On 04/07/12 10:19, Alan Pope wrote: Mark Shuttleworth: It was tough to lead ( snip ) We had done very well just shipping the best of FLOSS, but it clearly wasn't enough. ( snip ) we found industry politics blocked us ( snip ) So, now we know why Unity -- it's hardware-driven -- greed to capture the i-Pad, similar devices + Android, etc. internet phones. The software house isn't in the driving seat, after all. Follow the money .. I think you already knew that ;- Mark Shuttleworth: ( snip) Unity ( snip) was in large part designed to make the tablet / desktop convergence Just as I thought .. Just before the Unity/GUI-wars threads I posted about my fears that the tail was starting to wag the dog and Unity was _exactly_ what I had in mind when I wrote that. Not so long ago the login screen had an 'desktop chooser' option on it, so if you preferred a different WM than the 'standard', you just chose it there. I was disappointed that that had gone (I'm sure I could find how to restore it, but didn't .. life's too short), so went with the flow and used Gnome. I first met Unity when trying to get an urgent job done. I debated 10.04-LTS or the latest version (11.10, maybe?) and decided on the latter. I logged in and say a desktop that was totally, _Totally_, different from the previous one. I spent a little while trying to make sense of what was where and how to add configure the stuff I needed, but just couldn't find them. With now only about an hour and a half to deadline, I dumped it an started over with 10.04.LTS and _just_ configured the machine in time (I mean 10 minutes before before serious ouef sur la visage). I wasn't so much that change; it was such a radical change that for me at least came right out of the blue. OK, mea culpa for not playing safer and sticking with exactly what is familiar, but I simply didn't expect quite such a radical change and no obvious quick-and-easy revert to familiar. Just one reason why that was a bad move is that it means I am now _very_ wary of making that change. I can't afford to lose hours, days, or possibly longer learning everything again. It may be fine for Linux IT support people, it may be fine for newbies and office workers who want web, mail, wordprocessor and a couple of other things. I'm an Electronics Engineer working electronics hardware, mechanical hardware, embedded software and Linux+Windows software, occasionally Mac. I use a huge number of tools, some of which are very complex, some of which are only on Windows. If I were not careful and pragmatic, I could spend all my time learning new tools and none of my time designing products and earning a living. Change and change management is with me every hour of every working day. But I can only cope with so much change at any one time! I _will_ admit to being a GOM... The first thing I do on any OS I install is turn off as many special effects, sounds, blinks, flashes, wallpapers, 'glass' and other distractions as I can. For me they are all time-wasters and obfuscators that I need not. I abhor waiting for fancy sliding menus, zooming bubbles, sliding windows and all the other bling. As I said in my tail dog post, a smartphone/tablet oriented interface is possibly not ideal for a large multiscreen desktop workstation. Gordon. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
On 05/07/12 11:16, Gordon Scott wrote: Not so long ago the login screen had an 'desktop chooser' option on it, so if you preferred a different WM than the 'standard', you just chose it there. I was disappointed that that had gone (I'm sure I could find how to restore it, but didn't .. life's too short), so went with the flow and used Gnome. I believe the MyUnity app (from the Ubuntu Software Centre) happens to include a Gnome session, with or without effects, and is accessed, as other WMs would be, via a click on the Ubuntu logo in the corner of the login window. I first met Unity when trying to get an urgent job done. Not a good time to meet something so radically different, sympathies. I played with Unity a while but steadfastly continued using Ubuntu 10.04 LTS until I was ready to give 12.04 a bit of time. It repays the effort, and although it is hard to describe, I have a clear and increasing like of Unity. When first presented with it though, without a 'Help' function visible (!) it is hard work for anything but initial use. Help: Super keyDash help drag 'help' to the launcher, right click to fix in launcher. The neat way in which Unity manages multiple windows completely escaped me for a couple of months., but is now in regular use. :-) -- alan cocks -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
On 05/07/12 11:16, Gordon Scott wrote: Not so long ago the login screen had an 'desktop chooser' option on it, so if you preferred a different WM than the 'standard', you just chose it there. I was disappointed that that had gone No, it hasn't. The option to select which desktop to use at logon time is there and always has been in every release. Cheers, -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
[Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
Pertinent to the thread on this list recently, I thought some of you might be interested in what the guy who (currently) bankrolls a lot of the Ubuntu development has to say on the matter. In an open online chat via The Register yesterday:- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/28/mark_shuttleworth_live_chat/ Just thought it might give people some background on things and what direction we're heading. Not trying to stir up the hornets nest, just passing on what the boss says :) Things that rang true for me:- Comment From Nick mr Shuttleworth,regarding your reference on Unity,we can see a slight dislike of experienced and new ubuntu users regarding it's hard to use interface.What are your comments on that matter? Mark Shuttleworth: @Nick, yes, there was a lot of consternation at the change. But we didn't see any way to get from old to perfect new without going through imperfect new, and we felt it was obsolescence if we didn't make the commitment. We had to leave a lot of friends behind, most of them are friends again. Register Gav: what was at stake for UB if that change wasn't made: the embrace of all interfaces, the 2008 reboot, the switch to Unity? was this a make-or-break for Ubuntu? Mark Shuttleworth: It was tough to lead, I can tell you. We had done very well just shipping the best of FLOSS, but it clearly wasn't enough. Back in 2008 we had a very hard time getting anyone to listen on the topic of design, and when we tried to lead, we found industry politics blocked us. So we decided to JFDI, and I'm glad we did. The rest have followed, grumbling. Mark Shuttleworth: Windows 8 is really interesting. Microsoft have realised they need to address all form factors. The Metro work is world class, but the tablet/desktop integration in Win 8 is sucky, in part because they were not willing or able to move the desktop as hard as we were in the shift to Unity. If we had tried to marry Gnome2 and a tablet, you would get Win8 :). So Unity on the desktop was in large part designed to make the tablet / desktop convergence slick. It's been copied by others, but I don't think they understand exactly what they were copying ;) Comment From Big Dave Do you see Linux Mint as a threat and are there any plans to bring Ubuntu closer to Linux Mint with its improved ease-of-use for users? Mark Shuttleworth: @Big Dave, am happy for Mint to be addressing the needs of its users. As a fellow Debian-based distro, we have a lot in common. I think there's a limit to how far you can go if you only appeal to people who are grumpy about change, though, because then you either have to maintain the old, or introduce new change yourself. Mint said they would maintain Gnome2, then stopped. Then said they would offer Gnome Shell Extensions. Then forked Gnome Shell. It's all good and OK, but I think it gets more difficult over time unless you commit to a vision and drive it. And I don't know what that vision is. Cheers, -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
Pertinent to the thread on this list recently, I thought some of you might be interested in what the guy who (currently) bankrolls a lot of the Ubuntu development has to say on the matter. In an open online chat via The Register yesterday:- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/28/mark_shuttleworth_live_chat/ Hi, Is there a full transcript of this chat, or did you type all that in by hand? I cant see one on The Register. chris -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
That is certainly interesting, and I totally missed it on the reg. FWIW, I don't doubt Mr Shuttleworth believes wholeheartedly in the direction he's taking Ubuntu, and no question he has the right to do so but. On 04/07/12 10:19, Alan Pope wrote: SNIP Mark Shuttleworth: Windows 8 is really interesting. Microsoft have realised they need to address all form factors. The Metro work is world class, but the tablet/desktop integration in Win 8 is sucky, in part because they were not willing or able to move the desktop as hard as we were in the shift to Unity. If we had tried to marry Gnome2 and a tablet, you would get Win8 :). So Unity on the desktop was in large part designed to make the tablet / desktop convergence slick. It's been copied by others, but I don't think they understand exactly what they were copying ;) This is where I can't follow his lead. To my way of thinking phone, tablet, POS, PVR, desktop and probably others are totally separate use cases which demand *very* different things from the user interfaces. I feel that those disparate uses should have, at most a subtle, arm's length influence over each other. Chris -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
On 04/07/12 11:03, Chris Liddell wrote: This is where I can't follow his lead. To my way of thinking phone, tablet, POS, PVR, desktop and probably others are totally separate use cases which demand *very* different things from the user interfaces. I agree! I don't think you'll see the same unity on tablets/phones as you see on Desktops. Maybe something 'inspired' by the same UI and using the same underlying guts, so developers can 'write once'.. yeah yeah, we've all heard that before I know :) We can hope. I feel that those disparate uses should have, at most a subtle, arm's length influence over each other. True enough, but there's certainly some merit in having commonality in some components for familiarity sake. Similar ways of accessing settings, or sharing content for example. Rather than having to re-learn the way to do it for 3 different devices from the same vendor. It's certainly a challenge! Cheers, -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Online chat with Mark Shuttleworth
On 04/07/12 10:19, Alan Pope wrote: ( snip _ Mark Shuttleworth: (snip ) We had to leave a lot of friends behind Cutting away at your user-base ? How very wise that is . Mark Shuttleworth: It was tough to lead ( snip ) We had done very well just shipping the best of FLOSS, but it clearly wasn't enough. ( snip ) we found industry politics blocked us ( snip ) So, now we know why Unity -- it's hardware-driven -- greed to capture the i-Pad, similar devices + Android, etc. internet phones. The software house isn't in the driving seat, after all. Follow the money .. Mark Shuttleworth: ( snip) Unity ( snip) was in large part designed to make the tablet / desktop convergence Just as I thought .. Mark Shuttleworth: ( snip ) there's a limit to how far you can go if you only appeal to people who are grumpy about change, though, because then you either have to maintain the old, or introduce new change yourself. Without polling your users. They'll take whatever they're given. Just drive right on ahead, fill up the vacuum behind you, with appeals to sympathy, on account of how tough it was to lead, what with having to inflict all that change, on the unwilling, poor you .. Mint said they would maintain Gnome2, then stopped. Then said they would offer Gnome Shell Extensions. Then forked Gnome Shell. It's all good and OK, but I think it gets more difficult over time unless you commit to a vision and drive it. And I don't know what that vision is. But now we know what /your/ vision is: out with the old, in with the new; at any price. Drag 'em all behind you, willy-nilly. They'll all get used to it ! Cheers, Indeed L -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
