[Hardhats-members] Updated VA Demo for Cache

[Nancy Anthracite]

I have just today received and updated VA Demo (the one online at 
www.va.gov/vista) and I have not installed it or written instructions for 
installing it, but it is available for the adventurous among you.  I plan to 
install it, write instructions and port it to GTM in due time.  Anyone who 
wants to beat me to any of that, please do!  

Send me an email if you would like it.
-- 
Nancy Anthracite


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Re: [Hardhats-members] == OT: Vonage ==

[Joseph Dal Molin]

I use Primus here in Torontofor over a year nowit has had the 
odd minor glitch but overall it is excellent. I am saving at least 
$150-200 a month in long distance charges.


Joseph

Kevin Toppenberg wrote:
I really wanted to use it.  I even bought a telephone-ip adapter.  Only 
then I found out that my telephone number that I would be given would be 
in a different area code from where I live (i.e. they have no local 
access points.)  So I never signed up.


I read a review in a computer magazine that put AT&T's VOIP service #1 
and Vonage #2


Kevin


On 12/1/05, *Alberto Odor* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Sorry for the Off Topic post.

Is there anybody using Vonage VoIP services. Would like to hear your
experience

 


Alberto





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[Hardhats-members] CCHIT Pilot Testing

[Nancy Anthracite]

I'm predicting we will  need to get *VistA and VistA* through this.

CCHIT is ready to begin pilot testing of its proposed criteria and
inspection methods for certifying EMRs
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article.cms?articleId=37800
-- 
Nancy Anthracite


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[Hardhats-members] VistA users each with their own userid. Was: Device attributes

[Cameron Schlehuber]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of K.S.
Bhaskar
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:02 PM
To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Device attributes

On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 10:44 -0800, Greg Woodhouse wrote:

> That being said, I think you are right that it would be preferable from
> a security point of view to use OS level security and auditing, but
> VistA wasn't designed this way, and it's not trivial to retrofit this
> model onto VistA. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I do not see how your
> model can work.

[KSB] Let me turn this around because you know more about VistA than I
do.  What do you see as not working if each user has his/her own UNIX
userid?  [Note that there may still be a user vista under which a
nightly backup is launched under cron, or which owns processes that
serve CPRS GUI clients that connect at a TCP port, etc.  But regular
users who login to the system would not use vista.]

[Cameron Schlehuber] VistA doesn't prevent what you're describing.  At the
SLC Office of Information field office, each developer has their own userid
to the VMS system.  Most have a menu at the OS level that gives them choices
of what account they wish to drop into.  Some take them directly to the
VistA login, others drop them directly to programmer mode.  By the same
token a production user could have the OS take them directly to the VistA
login.  Since most users wouldn't like to have to know two different userids
and passwords, one pair for the OS userid and another pair for VistA, one
could set up the shell to pass in to VistA the user's unique ID and skip the
VistA access/verify challenge and go right to their assigned menu (along
with setting up the error trap, etc.)



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Re: [Hardhats-members] == OT: Vonage ==

[Kevin Toppenberg]

I really wanted to use it.  I even bought a telephone-ip
adapter.  Only then I found out that my telephone number that I
would be given would be in a different area code from where I live
(i.e. they have no local access points.)  So I never signed up.

I read a review in a computer magazine that put AT&T's VOIP service #1 and Vonage #2

Kevin
On 12/1/05, Alberto Odor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:













Sorry for the Off Topic
post.

Is there anybody using
Vonage VoIP services. Would like to hear your experience

 

Alberto

[Hardhats-members] Java Enterprise System

[Greg Woodhouse]

>From the San Francisco Chronicle:

Sun Banking on Open Source

Sun Microsystems Inc. said Wednesday that it will give some of its key
software to customers for free, hoping to catapult its popularity with
businesses and developers. 

The Menlo Park company will no longer charge for the Java Enterprise
System, along with some other programs, marking a big financial gamble
for a company that has struggled financially in recent years. 

To make money, Sun executives said they are banking on customers paying
for support and services for the various programs, which are used for
everything from managing business software to e-mail to making data
from different sources compatible. 

Jonathan Schwartz, Sun's president, said the free offer would expand
Sun's reach to as many users as possible, in effect getting the
company's foot in the door for future business. He denied that the
strategy could eviscerate the company's revenues -- which are heavily
reliant on selling servers -- and instead emphasized that big
corporations are invariably willing to pay for support and services for
software they use in case it needs fixing or upgrades. 

"We're going to be driving for volume first and foremost, then figuring
the right service to monetize that volume," Schwartz said. 

The decision to give away the Java Enterprise System and the other
software follows an earlier move this year by Sun to make its Solaris
10 operating system available for free. Executives called that decision
so successful, with 3.4 million registered licenses issued since
February, that they wanted to expand upon it. 

In addition to making various software products free on Wednesday, Sun
said it will further embrace the open source model, giving away the
source code to software so that developers can customize code, make
fixes and create new programs. No dates were disclosed for when the
code would be available, however. 

Sun has no immediate plans to make some of its other software open
source, including its Java SE, used to write other programs. 

The free model has gained a lot of traction in the technology industry
with the proliferation of Linux, open source software that is available
for free from many companies but often comes with optional paid support
and services. 

Some customers have preferred the open source model, saying that it
keeps them from being locked into a single provider, such as Microsoft,
whose software code is proprietary. Companies have also said that
updates and fixes of open source applications seem to happen faster
because of the large community of developers that works on the
software. 

In business software, Sun trails rivals IBM, BEA and Microsoft. Sun's
change in strategy is seen as a way to try to bolster its business,
which has been historically dependent on selling computer servers. 

The Java Enterprise System, which costs $140 per user per year, was
generating roughly $100 million a year in revenue for a company that
had $11.1 billion in revenue fiscal year 2005. Prior to Wednesday's
announcement, Sun already offered some of its Java software for free to
companies with fewer than 100 employees. 

As part of Wednesday's announcement, Sun also said it will bundle some
of its software into a single package, Solaris Enterprise System,
creating an alternative to Microsoft Windows. 

Sun shares fell 12 cents to close at $3.77 in Nasdaq trading Wednesday.


E-mail Verne Kopytoff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Page C - 1 
URL:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/01/BUGTPG0Q401.DTL






===
Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
--Philip L. Wadler


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Lambda abstration in "MUMPS"

[Greg Woodhouse]

--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Continuing...
> 
> To say that we want functions to treated as values seems a different
> point than saying that to accomplish this would require the converse
> situation of values being treated the same as functions (i.e.
> requiring an entry in the symbol table.

This is where the recursive aspect of computability theory enters the
picture. In any programming language, you will express a functions in
some way, so that you have a template for carrying it out. That doesn't
make much sense does it? We can return to this point if you like, but
the essential point is that you need language allowing you to talk
about what you're doing without having to explicitly enumerate the
things you might do (give them names). It isn't an essential point just
now.

> 
> > We need a
> > way to create *anonymous* functions. If we introduce LAMBDA as a
> kind
> > of place holder, a keyword standing place of the function name,
> 
> Again I am lost.  Isn't the name of the function already a
> placeholder
> for it's entry point?  

No, it's not a placeholder, it's a name for a function. Going back to
the example of ordinary integers, 2 is not a placeholder for a number,
it is a name we assign to a specific number. In

SUCC(N)  ;
  Q N+1

the N "acts like" a placeholder for an arbitrary integer, but in
reality it consumes a slot in your symbol table, and if you don't later
NEW it, you'll run into trouble with

SUCC2(N)  ;
  D
  .;bunch of stuff
  .;including
  .;S N=3
  Q N+1

then you'll run into trouble. That probably seems rather trivial, but
it does illustrate a mechanism through which unwanted coupling between
your code and the environment in which it runs can arise.

> It sounds like you are talking to a feature
> such as "function pointers" that exist in pascal (and c++ I think),

Not in standard Pascal, anyway, but function pointers are part of C
(and, of course, C++).

> whereby a variable can hold a reference to (or more exactly the
> address of) a function.  And the language ensures proper placement of
> the parameters on the stack etc during call.

But no, I'm not talking about function pointers here. Function pointers
*do* allow you to do many things like express functions acting on other
functions (in a limited way), but functions are never first class
values. What function pointers really do is gived you a way of
indirectly invoking code that is statically defined elsewhere. 

Maybe this is an overly esoteric example (in reality, it is very
fundamental), but suppose we were able to define a function Y (called
the fixed point combinator, or sometimes the "paradoxical operator")
that when applied to a function f returns (if it returns at all) a new
function Y f that *fixes* f. There are many ways to do this, but the
most famous is

> (define Y
(lambda (z)
  ((lambda (f) (f f))
   (lambda (f)
 (z (lambda (x) ((f f) x)))

(Does your head hurt? That definition certainly makes my head hurt!)

Okay, we've defined Y. What's it good for? Remember that the factorial
function (n! = 1 * 2 * ... * n) satisfies

fact(n) = n * fact (n - 1), if n > 0

But, more to the point, this is a way of *transforming* a function
according to a definite rule and getting the same function back. Supose
that all we know about the factorial is that it satisfies this rule,
and we're not smart enough to figure out that multiplying the integers
from 1 to n will work. What can we do? Well, let's express our
transformation rule in Scheme

> (define f
(lambda (g)
  (lambda (n)
(cond
  ((= n 0) 1)
  (else
   (* n (g (- n 1
> 

Now, let's apply Y to f and call the result fact

> (define fact (Y f))
> 

What can we do with fact?

> (fact 0)
1
> (fact 1)
1
> (fact 2)
2
> (fact 3)
6
> (fact 4)
24
> 

(If you find the definition of Y overly obscure, don't worry. You don't
really need it to follow the example. The only thing that matters is
that if finds a fixed point of f, i.e.f (Y f)) = f .)

Now, if you can find a way to do that with function pointers, I'll be
impressed!

> 
> But M, with indirection, this can also be done.
> 
> EXEC(FN,X)
>   new Y
>   xecute "set Y=$$"_FN_"("_X_")"
>   quit Y
> 

But the problem is the same. Your code still relies on the bindings in
effet at the time of its use. You can't disentangle it from the larger
program.

> ...

> > LAMBDA(X) {$S(+X=0:(X+1),1:BOTTOM) }
> >
> 
>   It seems to me that you are introducing unnecessary complexity. 
> You
> are introducing a new syntax to do something that M syntax already
> provides:
> 
> LAMBDA(X)
>   quit $S(+X=0:(X+1),1:BOTTOM)

No, because LAMBDA isn't a name. You're thinking about it as if it were
a function itself. Perhaps a rough analogy with OOP would be the
difference between a factory method and the objects you create using
it.
> 
>   Note: I'm not sure what you are doing with this function.
>   Input Values ---> Output Values
>     

Re: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

[whitten]

> 
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > PUG>S X="A,B,C,D"
> >  
> > PUG>W $L(X,",")
> > 4
> > PUG>
> > -poo

Greg Woodhouse replied:
> 
> And, of course, using $EXTRACT to retrieve values
> 
> 
> MNT>S X="ABC,DEF,GHI"
> 
> MNT>W $E(2)
> 2
> MNT>W $E(X,",",2)
> AB

I'm not sure what this last example $E(X,",",2) is supposed to show,
since it really is showing that a comma "," evaluates as an integer
to zero (0) and $EXTRACT(X,0,2) is that same as $EXTRACT(X,1,2)
which is the character subsring of X from position 1 through 
position 2, ie: "AB"


> MNT>
> 
> and SET $PIECE to modify them in place
> 
> MNT>S $P(X,",",2)="abc"
> 
> MNT>W X
> ABC,abc,GHI
> MNT>
> 
> are the other two pieces of the puzzle.
> 
> ===
> Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> "Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
> --Philip L. Wadler
> 
> 
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
> 



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Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Nancy Anthracite]

I have some EsiObjects Tutorials from a way back when Greenbelt meeting.  I 
have them right next to my chair, tantalizing me to look at them and try this 
out, but I haven't done it yet. 

When I get home tonight, I will see how big they are.  If you want them, email 
me and I will either upload them to my server or email them to you depending 
upon their size.

On Thursday 01 December 2005 11:24 am, Michael Zacharias wrote:
--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the link.  And I have looked at EsiObjects before (briefly), and
> frankly I find EsiObject in need of a good soundbyte.  I.e. "EsiObjects is
> " And no more than 5 words can go in the blank.  But
> from what I have seen, it just won't fit.
>
> Even now, I just looked at the programmer's reference guide.  It states:
>
> The EsiObjects Runtime Module contains all the components of a
> state-of-the-art object
> oriented database system. This module contains support for the Class
> Development
> Environment and all Application Runtime Environments. It implements:
> • A robust, comprehensive object model implementation based on the
> Smalltalk class
> model. This model implements all the concepts required of a full object
> oriented
> system, particularly, encapsulation, inheritance and polymorphic behavior.
> • A compiler that implements the 1995 ANSI standard M language and
> EsiObjects
> language extensions in support of the object model
>
>
> So it is a runtime module i.e. a separate executable?  Separate from M?
>
> And it has it's own compiler that "extends" the language?  And what is that
> Smalltalk (I'm not familiar with this) implementation?  So would I be
> writing in Smalltalk?

  The parser generator is written using a java based tool called antlr
(http://www.antlr.org).  You write code in a "superset" of the M Language. 
 It is actually quite intuitive to learn and you can pick it up quickly.
 Basically, the compiler "transforms" your code to ansi M.

> When I checked before, it seemed that EsiObjects allowed one to access the
> database in an object oriented way, meaning that globals become objects.
> But this didn't have application with VistA and fileman.

  If I remember correctly (I haven't got an ESIObjects setup with me at
the moment), you can specify whether your objects are persistent or not.  if
you needed to access a Fileman file, you create an object wrapper around that
file.  I believe that ESI has done this in the past, and may have developed a
tool to build these object wrappers automagically.  Intersystems has a
 similar tool to do the same thing in cache.

> I think that if I were to develop a separate application from VistA, then
> EsiObjects would be a very strong tool to have.  I would just have to spend
> some time figuring out how to use it.
>
> But for right now, I am seeing if I can write code in standard M (with no
> fancy tricks) that lets one store data is globals or arrays that then act
> like objects from other languages.

  I have done something similar here at the BCCDC.  I built our Food
Poisoning Management System using an OO metaphor.  Each Food Quality record
 is an "object" so to speak built up from smaller "component objects" (mostly
 lists).  I built an API to access the "member data" based on an existing
 data dictionary.  What I learned from this was that there was a lot of
 upfront effort to get the application developed.  It is providing quite a
 bit of downstream benefit as the app is very easy to maintain.  But through
 the while process, I just kept thinking (I wish I had a tool to do this!!!).

I'll keep monitoring the wiki to sww your progress on this.  I am very
interested in it.



> Kevin
>
> On 12/1/05, Michael Zacharias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Kevin
> >
> > If you haven't already, check out ESIObjects (http://www.esiobjects.org
> > ).  It
> > is an OO extension to M that uses M as the enabling language (i.e. the OO
> > abstraction is done similarily to what you are doing.  Using M data
> > structures,
> > etc).
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > Excellent.  But I am seeing what can be done without changing the
> > > language definition.  It might get done quicker that way   ;-\
> > >
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > > On 12/1/05, Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Kevin;
> > > >
> > > >Funny you should ask   WorldVistA was started by those of us
> >
> > who
> >
> > > were
> > >
> > > > part of the Object Oriented Working Group of a Task Group, of a
> > >
> > > subcommittee
> > >
> > > > of the MUMPS Development Committee.  This working group long out
> > > > lived
> >
> > (or
> >
> > > > was at least active) the MDC's activity.  You might want to take a
> >
> > look at
> >
> > > > the Object Oriented Check List X3H7.  We have lots of plans for this
> > > > technology.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes;   Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Mess

[Hardhats-members] == OT: Vonage ==

[Alberto Odor]

Sorry for the Off Topic
post.

Is there anybody using
Vonage VoIP services. Would like to hear your experience

 

Alberto

Re: [Hardhats-members] LOCKS

[Greg Woodhouse]

--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You have the XUPROG and XUMGR keys, and they are still locked?
> 
> 
> Kevin

I have these keys, but if I type "??", I still see

You can also select a secondary option:

   Programmer mode [XUPROGMODE]
 **> Locked with XUPROGMODE
  Programmer Options ... [XUPROG]
 **> Locked with XUPROG

That doesn't mean I can't use the options. It just means that they are
locked by the listed keys.

===
Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
--Philip L. Wadler


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Re: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

[Chris Richardson]

The code;
> > MNT>S X="ABC,DEF,GHI"
> > MNT>W $E(X,",",2)
> > AB
because, the resolution of "," is 0, so the statement is actually;
W $EXRACT(X,0,2)
with the result of
AB
because the 0 character is always NULL, "", not $A(0).  The range is three
characters, 0 to 2, but only 2 characters are returned.

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?


> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > PUG>S X="A,B,C,D"
> > >
> > > PUG>W $L(X,",")
> > > 4
> > > PUG>
> > > -poo
>
> Greg Woodhouse replied:
> >
> > And, of course, using $EXTRACT to retrieve values
> >
> >
> > MNT>S X="ABC,DEF,GHI"
> >
> > MNT>W $E(2)
> > 2
> > MNT>W $E(X,",",2)
> > AB
>
> I'm not sure what this last example $E(X,",",2) is supposed to show,
> since it really is showing that a comma "," evaluates as an integer
> to zero (0) and $EXTRACT(X,0,2) is that same as $EXTRACT(X,1,2)
> which is the character subsring of X from position 1 through
> position 2, ie: "AB"
>
>
> > MNT>
> >
> > and SET $PIECE to modify them in place
> >
> > MNT>S $P(X,",",2)="abc"
> >
> > MNT>W X
> > ABC,abc,GHI
> > MNT>
> >
> > are the other two pieces of the puzzle.
> >
> > ===
> > Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > "Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
> > --Philip L. Wadler





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Re: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

[Greg Woodhouse]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what this last example $E(X,",",2) is supposed to show,
> since it really is showing that a comma "," evaluates as an integer
> to zero (0) and $EXTRACT(X,0,2) is that same as $EXTRACT(X,1,2)
> which is the character subsring of X from position 1 through 
> position 2, ie: "AB"
> 

You're right, it was a think-o. I should have written

MNT>W X
ABC,abc,GHI
MNT>W $P(X,",",2)
abc
MNT>

===
Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
--Philip L. Wadler


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Re: [Hardhats-members] LOCKS

[Greg Woodhouse]

--- Thurman Pedigo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have several menu items "LOCKED" with "XUPROG",  "XUMGR" and other
> similar
> locks. I can delete the lock and get at them ok. Somehow I am having
> trouble
> getting them to "unlock" otherwise. Will appreciate suggestions.
> 
>  
> 
> thurman  
> 

This has nothing to do with the LOCK command in the MUMPS language.
Rather, it means that a user needs to hold the XUPROG key in order to
have access to the menu. Keys are a basic security mechanism in VistA,
and programmer access is a very high level of access to a system
(comparable in many ways to being root in Linux), so you almost
certainly do not want to circumvent these protections. If you want a
user to be able to perform actions restricted to people have programmer
access, you should give him or her the XUPROG key. If you want the user
to be able to enter direct (or "programmer") mode from within the menu
system, give the user the XUPROGMODE key. These two keys are almost
always used in conjunction, but there are many things programmers can
do (like modify input transforms) that do not actually require going
into direct mode.

===
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"Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
--Philip L. Wadler


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RE: [Hardhats-members] LOCKS

[Thurman Pedigo]

Have those key assigned. Should have said
I am testing this on VistA Office. I have it working fine in FileMan and a
version of FOIA VistA. I wonder if there are some special locks in Office. I am
mostly checking to see if I can ID the best way to manage (FOIA) patient file,
so we can save a record without all the VA required fields. 

 

thurman

 













From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Toppenberg
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005
9:54 AM
To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members]
LOCKS



 

You have the XUPROG and
XUMGR keys, and they are still locked?


Kevin





On 12/1/05, Thurman Pedigo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I have
several menu items "LOCKED" with "XUPROG",
 "XUMGR" and other similar locks. I can delete the lock and get
at them ok. Somehow I am having trouble getting them to "unlock"
otherwise. Will appreciate suggestions.

 

thurman 






 

Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Chris Richardson]

Joseph is partially correct.  In that many of the members of the working
group were also some of the last members of the MUMPS Development Committee
(MDC is still sleeping), he is correct.  While many of those in the working
group are also on the board or are officers is merely a coindicence.  The
goals of the working group should not be and are not directly binding on
WorldVistA.  There were members of the working group who are not associated
with WorldVistA.  There are memebers of the board of WorldVistA who have
nothing to do with the working group.  While I am sure that all of the
working group would like to get back to the OO model, there is still much to
be done with VistA.  VistA and MUMPS need to exist for the model the working
group was working with to be built and tested.  This work will be picked up
again, but there are only so many hours and the model needs to have MUMPS
available.

  The OO model is not part of the WorldVistA effort right now, and should
wait for the critical mass for VistA to catch and move forward before the
members of the working group start turning their attentions back to the OO
model.  Both are moving targets, and it is easier if people who understand
both models progress with one to further its development until it is time to
push the other model forward.

   Kevin, the work you are doing is not a waste.  It is bringing you up to
speed on some of the ground we have already covered.  By the way, Kevin,
have you looked at ESI-Objects?

Best wishes;   Chris

- Original Message -
From: "Joseph Dal Molin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps


> ...for clarification ... the "we" Chris is referring to was the MUMPS
> Development Committee.
>
> Joseph
>
> Chris Richardson wrote:
> > Kevin;
> >
> >We were working this technology into a new language which woul work
with
> > MUMPS and other languages equally well. but have more true object
technology
> > involved.   We froze this effort until we could get the VistA
established in
> > the rest of the world before we go back to the new language model.
> >
> >Best wishes;   Chris
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > Excellent.  But I am seeing what can be done without changing the
> > language definition.  It might get done quicker that way   ;-\
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12/1/05, Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>Kevin;
> >>
> >>   Funny you should ask   WorldVistA was started by those of us who
> >
> > were
> >
> >>part of the Object Oriented Working Group of a Task Group, of a
> >
> > subcommittee
> >
> >>of the MUMPS Development Committee.  This working group long out lived
(or
> >>was at least active) the MDC's activity.  You might want to take a look
at
> >>the Object Oriented Check List X3H7.  We have lots of plans for this
> >>technology.
> >>
> >>Best wishes;   Chris
> >>
> >>
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Hardhats Sourceforge" 
> >>Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:51 PM
> >>Subject: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps
> >>
> >>
> >>I am still interested if the array structures that are intrinsic to M
> >>could be leveraged to achieve object oriented code.
> >>
> >>Here is some working code have written around a simple OO framework:
> >>
> >
> >
http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Object_Oriented_Progr
> >
> >>amming_with_M
> >>
> >>The sample program doesn't really show much of the OO abilities. I was
> >>mostly worknig on getting the execution of member functions to work.
> >>But each object has its own variable set and share common methods.
> >>
> >>Let me know what you all think.
> >>
> >>("why?" --> "because!")
> >>
> >>Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >>---
> >>This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log
> >
> > files
> >
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Michael Zacharias]

--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks for the link.  And I have looked at EsiObjects before (briefly), and
> frankly I find EsiObject in need of a good soundbyte.  I.e. "EsiObjects is
> " And no more than 5 words can go in the blank.  But
> from what I have seen, it just won't fit.
> 
> Even now, I just looked at the programmer's reference guide.  It states:
> 
> The EsiObjects Runtime Module contains all the components of a
> state-of-the-art object
> oriented database system. This module contains support for the Class
> Development
> Environment and all Application Runtime Environments. It implements:
> • A robust, comprehensive object model implementation based on the Smalltalk
> class
> model. This model implements all the concepts required of a full object
> oriented
> system, particularly, encapsulation, inheritance and polymorphic behavior.
> • A compiler that implements the 1995 ANSI standard M language and
> EsiObjects
> language extensions in support of the object model
> 
> 
> So it is a runtime module i.e. a separate executable?  Separate from M?

> And it has it's own compiler that "extends" the language?  And what is that
> Smalltalk (I'm not familiar with this) implementation?  So would I be
> writing in Smalltalk?

  The parser generator is written using a java based tool called antlr
(http://www.antlr.org).  You write code in a "superset" of the M Language.  It
is actually quite intuitive to learn and you can pick it up quickly. 
Basically, the compiler "transforms" your code to ansi M.  


> 
> When I checked before, it seemed that EsiObjects allowed one to access the
> database in an object oriented way, meaning that globals become objects.
> But this didn't have application with VistA and fileman.

  If I remember correctly (I haven't got an ESIObjects setup with me at
the moment), you can specify whether your objects are persistent or not.  if
you needed to access a Fileman file, you create an object wrapper around that
file.  I believe that ESI has done this in the past, and may have developed a
tool to build these object wrappers automagically.  Intersystems has a similar
tool to do the same thing in cache.


> 
> I think that if I were to develop a separate application from VistA, then
> EsiObjects would be a very strong tool to have.  I would just have to spend
> some time figuring out how to use it.
> 
> But for right now, I am seeing if I can write code in standard M (with no
> fancy tricks) that lets one store data is globals or arrays that then act
> like objects from other languages.

  I have done something similar here at the BCCDC.  I built our Food
Poisoning Management System using an OO metaphor.  Each Food Quality record is
an "object" so to speak built up from smaller "component objects" (mostly
lists).  I built an API to access the "member data" based on an existing data
dictionary.  What I learned from this was that there was a lot of upfront
effort to get the application developed.  It is providing quite a bit of
downstream benefit as the app is very easy to maintain.  But through the while
process, I just kept thinking (I wish I had a tool to do this!!!).

I'll keep monitoring the wiki to sww your progress on this.  I am very
interested in it.


> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
> On 12/1/05, Michael Zacharias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > If you haven't already, check out ESIObjects (http://www.esiobjects.org
> > ).  It
> > is an OO extension to M that uses M as the enabling language (i.e. the OO
> > abstraction is done similarily to what you are doing.  Using M data
> > structures,
> > etc).
> >
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > Excellent.  But I am seeing what can be done without changing the
> > > language definition.  It might get done quicker that way   ;-\
> > >
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/1/05, Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Kevin;
> > > >
> > > >Funny you should ask   WorldVistA was started by those of us
> > who
> > > were
> > > > part of the Object Oriented Working Group of a Task Group, of a
> > > subcommittee
> > > > of the MUMPS Development Committee.  This working group long out lived
> > (or
> > > > was at least active) the MDC's activity.  You might want to take a
> > look at
> > > > the Object Oriented Check List X3H7.  We have lots of plans for this
> > > > technology.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes;   Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: "Hardhats Sourceforge" 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:51 PM
> > > > Subject: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am still interested if the array structures that are intrinsic to M
> > > > could be leveraged to achieve object oriented code.
> > > >
> > > > Here is some working code have written around a simple OO

RE: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

[Greg Woodhouse]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> PUG>S X="A,B,C,D"
>  
> PUG>W $L(X,",")
> 4
> PUG>
> -poo

And, of course, using $EXTRACT to retrieve values


MNT>S X="ABC,DEF,GHI"

MNT>W $E(2)
2
MNT>W $E(X,",",2)
AB
MNT>

and SET $PIECE to modify them in place

MNT>S $P(X,",",2)="abc"

MNT>W X
ABC,abc,GHI
MNT>

are the other two pieces of the puzzle.

===
Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
--Philip L. Wadler


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Greg Woodhouse]

--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> But for right now, I am seeing if I can write code in standard M
> (with no
> fancy tricks) that lets one store data is globals or arrays that then
> act
> like objects from other languages.
> 
> Kevin

I can tell you what I sometimes do:

1. Create a Fileman file for new classes you require.
2. Write routines containing entry points to serve as methods. The
instance methods should, of course, have a first parameter that is an
IEN in the file. (You can even call it THIS or SELF, if you like).
3. Implement compositions with subfiles and specialization by creating
.01 fields that point to the superclass.

Of course, this could be accomplished using just globals, too.

===
Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Interaction is the mind-body problem of computing."
--Philip L. Wadler


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Re: [Hardhats-members] LOCKS

[Kevin Toppenberg]

You have the XUPROG and XUMGR keys, and they are still locked?

Kevin

On 12/1/05, Thurman Pedigo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:













I have several menu items "LOCKED" with "XUPROG",
 "XUMGR" and other similar locks. I can delete the lock and get at
them ok. Somehow I am having trouble getting them to "unlock"
otherwise. Will appreciate suggestions.

 

thurman  

Re: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

[Kevin Toppenberg]

Thanks Larry.

Kevin
On 12/1/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:PUG>S X="A,B,C,D"PUG>W $L(X,",")
4PUG>-poo

Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Kevin Toppenberg]

Thanks for the link.  And I have looked at EsiObjects before
(briefly), and frankly I find EsiObject in need of a good
soundbyte.  I.e. "EsiObjects is " And no more
than 5 words can go in the blank.  But from what I have seen, it
just won't fit.

Even now, I just looked at the programmer's reference guide.  It states:

The EsiObjects Runtime Module contains all the components of a state-of-the-art object
oriented database system. This module contains support for the Class Development
Environment and all Application Runtime Environments. It implements:
• A robust, comprehensive object model implementation based on the Smalltalk class
model. This model implements all the concepts required of a full object oriented
system, particularly, encapsulation, inheritance and polymorphic behavior.
• A compiler that implements the 1995 ANSI standard M language and EsiObjects
language extensions in support of the object model


So it is a runtime module i.e. a separate executable? 
Separate from M?  And it has it's own compiler that "extends" the
language?  And what is that Smalltalk (I'm not familiar with this)
implementation?  So would I be writing in Smalltalk?

When I checked before, it seemed that EsiObjects allowed one to access
the database in an object oriented way, meaning that globals become
objects.  But this didn't have application with VistA and fileman.
I think that if I were to develop a separate application from
VistA, then EsiObjects would be a very strong tool to have.  I
would just have to spend some time figuring out how to use it.

But for right now, I am seeing if I can write code in standard M (with
no fancy tricks) that lets one store data is globals or arrays that
then act like objects from other languages.

Kevin

On 12/1/05, Michael Zacharias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
KevinIf you haven't already, check out ESIObjects (http://www.esiobjects.org).  Itis an OO extension to M that uses M as the enabling language (i.e. the OOabstraction is done similarily to what you are doing.  Using M data structures,
etc).Michael--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Chris,>> Excellent.  But I am seeing what can be done without changing the
> language definition.  It might get done quicker that way   ;-\>> Kevin On 12/1/05, Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Kevin;> >> >Funny you should ask   WorldVistA was started by those of us who> were> > part of the Object Oriented Working Group of a Task Group, of a> subcommittee
> > of the MUMPS Development Committee.  This working group long out lived (or> > was at least active) the MDC's activity.  You might want to take a look at> > the Object Oriented Check List X3H7.  We have lots of plans for this
> > technology.> >> > Best wishes;   Chris> >> >> > - Original Message -> > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > To: "Hardhats Sourceforge" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:51 PM
> > Subject: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps> >> >> > I am still interested if the array structures that are intrinsic to M> > could be leveraged to achieve object oriented code.
> >> > Here is some working code have written around a simple OO framework:> >> http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Object_Oriented_Progr
> > amming_with_M> >> > The sample program doesn't really show much of the OO abilities. I was> > mostly worknig on getting the execution of member functions to work.> > But each object has its own variable set and share common methods.
> >> > Let me know what you all think.> >> > ("why?" --> "because!")> >> > Kevin> >> >> > ---
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log> files> > for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes> > searching your log files as easy as surfing the  web.  DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!
> > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=ick> > ___> > Hardhats-members mailing list
> > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ---> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log
> files> > for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes> > searching your log files as easy as surfing the  web.  DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!> > 
http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click> > ___> > Hardhats-members mailing list> > 
Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members> >>>
> ---> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files> for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes
> searching your l

RE: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

[Larry . G . Carlson]

PUG>S X="A,B,C,D"
 
PUG>W $L(X,",")
4
PUG>
-poo

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin
Toppenberg
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:31 PM
To: Hardhats Sourceforge
Subject: [Hardhats-members] How to count pieces?

It seems like I saw code once that counted pieces,  ie.

"a,b,c,d^e,f"  ---> 5 pieces, using "," as a divider, and 2 pieces,
using "^" as a divider.

It seems like this was done with a Mumps command?
Can someone tell if this is possible?

Thanks
Kevin


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Michael Zacharias]

Kevin

If you haven't already, check out ESIObjects (http://www.esiobjects.org).  It
is an OO extension to M that uses M as the enabling language (i.e. the OO
abstraction is done similarily to what you are doing.  Using M data structures,
etc).


Michael


--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Chris,
> 
> Excellent.  But I am seeing what can be done without changing the
> language definition.  It might get done quicker that way   ;-\
> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/1/05, Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Kevin;
> >
> >Funny you should ask   WorldVistA was started by those of us who
> were
> > part of the Object Oriented Working Group of a Task Group, of a
> subcommittee
> > of the MUMPS Development Committee.  This working group long out lived (or
> > was at least active) the MDC's activity.  You might want to take a look at
> > the Object Oriented Check List X3H7.  We have lots of plans for this
> > technology.
> >
> > Best wishes;   Chris
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Hardhats Sourceforge" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:51 PM
> > Subject: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps
> >
> >
> > I am still interested if the array structures that are intrinsic to M
> > could be leveraged to achieve object oriented code.
> >
> > Here is some working code have written around a simple OO framework:
> >
> http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Object_Oriented_Progr
> > amming_with_M
> >
> > The sample program doesn't really show much of the OO abilities. I was
> > mostly worknig on getting the execution of member functions to work.
> > But each object has its own variable set and share common methods.
> >
> > Let me know what you all think.
> >
> > ("why?" --> "because!")
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log
> files
> > for problems?  Stop!  Download the new AJAX search engine that makes
> > searching your log files as easy as surfing the  web.  DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!
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> > ___
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> > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
> >
> 
> 
> ---
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> 








__ 
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca


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[Hardhats-members] LOCKS

[Thurman Pedigo]

I have several menu items “LOCKED” with “XUPROG”,
 “XUMGR” and other similar locks. I can delete the lock and get at
them ok. Somehow I am having trouble getting them to “unlock”
otherwise. Will appreciate suggestions.

 

thurman  

Re: [Hardhats-members] Fileman.rsa for Cache

[Nancy Anthracite]

You are right. Now the whole package is 966KB, so I can email it to most.  

On Thursday 01 December 2005 08:46 am, Gregory Woodhouse wrote:
On Nov 30, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Nancy Anthracite wrote:
> I made an ANSI file for importing George Timoson's Medsphere Fileman
> enhancements into VistA on Cache and it needs some folks to test it
> all out.
> I have the file on my server and instructions for using it, so if
> you are
> interested, send me an email.  The file is 2.9 megs.
> --
> Nancy Anthracite

Since the file is just text (and code at that!), it should be highly
compressible.

===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Prediction is difficult, especially of the future."
--Niels Bohr




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-- 
Nancy Anthracite


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Fileman.rsa for Cache

[Gregory Woodhouse]

On Nov 30, 2005, at 9:40 PM, Nancy Anthracite wrote:


I made an ANSI file for importing George Timoson's Medsphere Fileman
enhancements into VistA on Cache and it needs some folks to test it  
all out.
I have the file on my server and instructions for using it, so if  
you are

interested, send me an email.  The file is 2.9 megs.
--
Nancy Anthracite


Since the file is just text (and code at that!), it should be highly  
compressible.


===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Prediction is difficult, especially of the future."
--Niels Bohr




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Re: [Hardhats-members] Lambda abstration in "MUMPS"

[Gregory Woodhouse]

On Nov 30, 2005, at 6:09 PM, Kevin Toppenberg wrote:




I'm afraid I can't reply in detail right now (I have a train to  
catch), but perhaps I can hint at a response.


You are correct that functional programming doesn't add any  
expressive power in the sense that any program that can be written in  
a functional language can also be written in an imperative language,  
if (and that's a big if) you mean by this that it's possible to write  
a program in (say) MUMPS that computes the same result. In computer  
science, this is sometimes called the Church-Turing thesis. It's not  
a theorem (or a provable result), but rather a kind of working  
assumption. But aside from that, the fact that you can write  
compilers for functional languages *does* prove that you can develop  
programs in other languages that compute the same result.


But are they really the same? I've been struggling for a medical  
analogy, and I think functional programming is a kind of "minimally  
invasive computing". The result of not using a minimally invasive  
technique may be "the same", but only after the patient heals!




On 11/27/05, Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

A basic feature of functional languages is that functions are values,
just like numbers and strings, and they, too, can be returned from
other functions. This is not possible in MUMPS (except in a  
limited way
via indirection), so to illustrate the idea, it is necessary to  
invent

some syntax. In normal MUMPS, a function that adds 1 to its parameter
can be written

ADD1(X)  ;
Q X+1

But ADD1 isn't a value. I can't, for example define a function

ADD1(ADD1)


I'm lost here.  First, you initially defined your function to take an
input parameter (X).  So at least your example should be like this:


ADD1(X)  ;
Q X+1



ADD1(ADD1(X))


And in mumps, wouldn't this be accomplished via below?

S Y=$$ADD1($$ADD1(X))



That's correct, but notice that you could only express the function  
composition (applying one function to the result of another) by  
adding an explicit parameter (X). In other words, composition is  
something that can only be expressed *in the context of its actual  
use*. In other words, even in this simple example, you find yourself  
having to do some cutting and suturing that really isn't necessary.


===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"The most profound technologies are those that disappear."
--Mark Weiser






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Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps

[Joseph Dal Molin]

...for clarification ... the "we" Chris is referring to was the MUMPS 
Development Committee.


Joseph

Chris Richardson wrote:

Kevin;

   We were working this technology into a new language which woul work with
MUMPS and other languages equally well. but have more true object technology
involved.   We froze this effort until we could get the VistA established in
the rest of the world before we go back to the new language model.

   Best wishes;   Chris

- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps


Chris,

Excellent.  But I am seeing what can be done without changing the
language definition.  It might get done quicker that way   ;-\

Kevin



On 12/1/05, Chris Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Kevin;

  Funny you should ask   WorldVistA was started by those of us who


were


part of the Object Oriented Working Group of a Task Group, of a


subcommittee


of the MUMPS Development Committee.  This working group long out lived (or
was at least active) the MDC's activity.  You might want to take a look at
the Object Oriented Check List X3H7.  We have lots of plans for this
technology.

   Best wishes;   Chris


- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Hardhats Sourceforge" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: [Hardhats-members] Object Oriented(OO) in Mumps


I am still interested if the array structures that are intrinsic to M
could be leveraged to achieve object oriented code.

Here is some working code have written around a simple OO framework:



http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Object_Oriented_Progr


amming_with_M

The sample program doesn't really show much of the OO abilities. I was
mostly worknig on getting the execution of member functions to work.
But each object has its own variable set and share common methods.

Let me know what you all think.

("why?" --> "because!")

Kevin


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