Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
At 11:38 AM 06/06/2006, joeuser wrote: Anyone know how to go about reselling Apple computers? LOL! I looked into selling iPods and walked away after Apple demanded to see my books. T
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Can't you buy them through TechData? Thane Sherrington (S) wrote: At 11:38 AM 06/06/2006, joeuser wrote: Anyone know how to go about reselling Apple computers? LOL! I looked into selling iPods and walked away after Apple demanded to see my books. T
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
At 10:15 AM 07/06/2006, Ben Ruset wrote: Can't you buy them through TechData? You have to be Apple Authorized. T Thane Sherrington (S) wrote: At 11:38 AM 06/06/2006, joeuser wrote: Anyone know how to go about reselling Apple computers? LOL! I looked into selling iPods and walked away after Apple demanded to see my books. T __ NOD32 1.1583 (20060607) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Thane Sherrington (S) wrote: At 09:30 AM 05/06/2006, Chris Reeves wrote: Rendering 2d for your video card, as someone pointed out is child's play. Having it continuously in a 3D enabled mode means it's using more power; more heat; more chances for a nice graphics crash. Not sure what great benefit there is in that. And how many laptops have 128MB of video RAM or more? Not many. So Vista isn't for laptops, clearly. Of course, they're looking to the future, when we all buy new ones. :) They are looking to the future...and eventually, most folks will get another one, but there are always plenty of new folks entering the laptop market. They'll like the new stuff and won't give a hoot about vidram...
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Personally, I want my resources to be consumed by the applications I run, not the underling operating system. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Q. Martin Sent: 06 June 2006 06:47 To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. You guys kinda surprise me. Many of you have top-notch systems and components, yet you want an OS that supports mostly minimal hardware. Why? Vista represents an OS designed to run on and fully utilize the type of hardware that we see sold today. Big memory vidcards and lots of system ram are the norm, as are super fat HDs, etc. *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office. This firm is not authorised by the Financial Services Authority. However, we are included on the Register maintained by the Financial Services Authority so that we can carry on insurance mediation activity in the UK, which is broadly the advising on, selling and administration of insurance contracts. This part of our business, including arrangements for complaints or redress if something goes wrong, is regulated by The Law Society. The Register can be accessed via the Financial Services Authority website at www.fsa.gov.uk/register.
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Anthony, this is where I think you're missing the point. I don't mind something that requires a lot of resources, etc. Everything eventually has to upgrade.What I and others are contending is that the system resources required in order to get what we get are outrageous. In other words, the new GUI basically sucks. It is not as though Aero provides you with features that make me say my goodness! I can't believe I didn't have this before. Will most users sit and press Windows-Tab to watch the sliding windows go by for infinity? I doubt it. I think more users will be unhappy with the fact that things like theme management, which is completely editable in WindowsXP is virtually impossible to edit within Vista. So, cutesy desktops etc. are gone. While people will like the new functionality of a Media Center purposes built in, the new Media Center Interface adds some functionality that we do want. At the same time, by changing the menuing system the way in which they have, those who bought Microsoft's MCE Keyboard will find that it takes MORE keystrokes to access common features then it does in the current version of Media Center. Aero's improved Networking Services are nice, but remember, for users of the Basic Aero Home, most of that functionality will not ship with the product at all. In the end, a big part of buying in is evaluating what you are getting for what you pay. What the base problem most of us have isn't just the fact that the system requirements went up, it's that what we get for those increased system requirements just isn't very good. If Microsoft offered MS-BOB and told me it was the next generation but had incredible system requirements, the fact that it had higher eye candy but sucked wouldn't matter. So, we get eye candy in Vista, but most of the functionality changes do nothing to enhance the ability of the user to make the best use of the OS. The end user is now: * Locked out of major desktop changes * Made to use more keystrokes for many activities * Provided a much more stark Windows Update which provides users almost no information as to what they download or are installing without multiple clicks. * Creates a reverse swing Start-Menu that while pretty, suffers when a user has a large number of applications installed. In otherwords, Vista as of right now is an OS with high requirements that presents (I'm using Ultimate) a super-dumbed down interface where functionality is limited. If I thought the increased system requirements got me something, I wouldn't complain as much, but I'm not seeing where it gets me anything. In fact, just the reverse. More then that, as many of us are systembuilders here, system requirements are important to how we conduct business. The requirement of a 128MB dedicated DX9 video card means for many that new machines sold right now will struggle with Vista. That can come back to haunt you. People love to buy a PC around $400-$500 which is why companies like Dell, etc. flog the hell out of them. But in the end, small OEMs will be the ones to hear complaints when those same boxes sold today struggle with Vista in 9 months. CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Q. Martin Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 1:00 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. Thane Sherrington (S) wrote: At 09:30 AM 05/06/2006, Chris Reeves wrote: Rendering 2d for your video card, as someone pointed out is child's play. Having it continuously in a 3D enabled mode means it's using more power; more heat; more chances for a nice graphics crash. Not sure what great benefit there is in that. And how many laptops have 128MB of video RAM or more? Not many. So Vista isn't for laptops, clearly. Of course, they're looking to the future, when we all buy new ones. :) They are looking to the future...and eventually, most folks will get another one, but there are always plenty of new folks entering the laptop market. They'll like the new stuff and won't give a hoot about vidram...
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
rather save the resources for the games :-} fp At 10:46 PM 6/5/2006, Anthony Q. Martin Poked the stick with: You guys kinda surprise me. Many of you have top-notch systems and components, yet you want an OS that supports mostly minimal hardware. Why? Vista represents an OS designed to run on and fully utilize the type of hardware that we see sold today. Big memory vidcards and lots of system ram are the norm, as are super fat HDs, etc. -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Know when to fight and when to run.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
It won't run on my almost six month old laptop. But I guess that's old hardware. :( Anthony Q. Martin wrote: You guys kinda surprise me. Many of you have top-notch systems and components, yet you want an OS that supports mostly minimal hardware. Why? Vista represents an OS designed to run on and fully utilize the type of hardware that we see sold today. Big memory vidcards and lots of system ram are the norm, as are super fat HDs, etc.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
My $1700 laptop only has an Intel i855GME video card. It will only use up to 64MB of RAM. I have 2GB of system ram installed. Foo on me for buying an Inspiron 700m. Gary VanderMolen wrote: My $600 Compaq Presario V2404US laptop runs Vista just fine, including the Aero glass effect. Initially it had only 512 MB RAM but I increased that recently to 1.5 GB, which did result in speedier operation. Of that RAM, 128 MB is being used by the integrated graphics processor, so initially the OS had only 384 MB available. The integrated graphics chip is an ATI Radeon Xpress 200M which fully supports all of Vista's special effects. Gary VanderMolen - Original Message - Meh, even 90% of todays high end laptops of today won't be able to run Vista with full effects.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Exactly go to dell.com and find how many laptops offer 128MB of dedicated DX9 memory :). Or if UMA 256MB CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless -Original Message- From: Ben Ruset [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 09:17:51 To:The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. My $1700 laptop only has an Intel i855GME video card. It will only use up to 64MB of RAM. I have 2GB of system ram installed. Foo on me for buying an Inspiron 700m. Gary VanderMolen wrote: My $600 Compaq Presario V2404US laptop runs Vista just fine, including the Aero glass effect. Initially it had only 512 MB RAM but I increased that recently to 1.5 GB, which did result in speedier operation. Of that RAM, 128 MB is being used by the integrated graphics processor, so initially the OS had only 384 MB available. The integrated graphics chip is an ATI Radeon Xpress 200M which fully supports all of Vista's special effects. Gary VanderMolen - Original Message - Meh, even 90% of todays high end laptops of today won't be able to run Vista with full effects.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Anyone know how to go about reselling Apple computers? -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key)
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Yeah, I'm serious... joeuser wrote: Anyone know how to go about reselling Apple computers? -- Cheers, joeuser (still looking for the 'any' key)
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
There is seriously GOOD money in doing authorized Apple repair. joeuser wrote: Yeah, I'm serious... joeuser wrote: Anyone know how to go about reselling Apple computers?
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Exactly go to dell.com and find how many laptops offer 128MB of dedicated DX9 memory :). Or if UMA 256MB I don't know about Dell, but HP/Compaq has plenty of inexpensive laptops with 128MB of shared memory, which works fine on Vista. Typical example: http://tinyurl.com/lxwzn Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
One very important thing to consider is that when running Aero Glass, the VGA card is being utilized. That makes the power consumption go up. For desktops that's fine, but for laptops --- Greg Sevart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. But the big claim to fame of Aero is a completely 3D rendered desktop. Gone is the 2D mode--your desktop is rendered just as any modern game is. This, naturally, consumes a lot more memory and GPU resources. I'm very curious to see what else can be done now that the interface is truly 3D... Honestly, I think one of the biggest advantages of Vista will be moving the audio driver out of kernel mode and into user mode. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reboot computers just because the sound driver hiccupped. Printing is also supposedly new, finally getting away from the old buggy spooler used for years. The new network stack is supposedly more responsive, too... I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic. Make no mistake, though: Vista probably won't be going on my machine until SP1. Greg __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
- Original Message - From: Chris Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista This reminds me of the horrible rip-off of customers who make the mistake of buying XP Home OEM when they really need XP Pro OEM. If Microsoft uses an upgrade path with Vista that is similar to XP look for huge rip-offs. Here is the scenario I have seen customers face and some took the bait: Customer orders a new computer with XP Home which is $90.00 on his invoice from me (I line item quote new computers) Customer changes his mind a week later and wants XP Pro which sells for $180.00 in the local stores, the Upgrade version. Customer asks me for advice. My Windows XP Pro OEM kits are $150.00. Can't do that as the computer is not new anymore, so it legally does not qualify for my OEM kit, but requires the Upgrade version. Customer now pays $180.00 to upgrade from XP Home OEM to XP Pro Upgrade version. Total outlay for Windows hits $270.00 in a week! Rip-off or what? If the upgrade path for Vista is anything like the upgrade path for XP, either make the right choice the first time, sell the computer and buy another new one, or get screwed royally in the pricing to upgrade. Of course I called Microsoft and raised hell and was told, Your only option to install XP Pro on that existing computer is the Upgrade version. Case closed and Microsoft wins again, $270.00 for one computer because the customer made the wrong choice in the beginning. Chuck
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
So you think the system requirements for software should never increase? 512 megs of ram isn't that uncommon these days. As to Aero, whats wrong with requiring full DX 9 hardware with 128 megs of ram? You don't need to run Aero to use Vista so they were right in designing Aero for the future, remember its a complete redesign of the UI to move it all into 3d and better to do it all at once then a small piece at a time. No need to design it so it can run on less powerful hardware as that would limit it from its full potential. Think about it from the perspective of a programmer, should they be forced to target the UI they make for their apps to run on a multitude of UI renders? Wouldn't it be much better for them to assume an Aero UI can take advantage of everything? - Original Message - From: Ben Ruset [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. I have access to the Vista betas via my company's MSDN subscription. I've played with some of the previous betas and pretty much came to the same conclusion as Chris. First off, the system requirements are a joke. One of the nice things about previous versions of Windows is that they would run (slowly, perhaps) on systems with low amounts of RAM. I once had Windows 2000 Server running on a P2-300 with 128MB of RAM, running as an Active Directory domain controller in a production environment. Vista requires 512MB of RAM as a minimum. Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. The UI changes are extremely frustrating. The stanard File - Edit - View menus on explorer windows are gone. You have to dig through some menus to enable them. The new start menu is pretty bad as well. I didn't really look into Device Manager at all, as the system supported all of my hardware right out of the box. I also didn't care about encrypting my file system, so I can't comment about any of Chris's experiences there. XP, I believe, is pretty much the pinnacle of Windows development. Vista is mostly XP with some eyecandy, IE7, and a lot of frustrating usability changes. I don't think people are going to rush out and say HEY I GOT TO UPGRADE TO VISTA like we saw with Win95 (or even to an extent with XP.) Vista will move units only because OEM's will preload it. Playing with Vista has made me more interested in desktop Linux. I'm typing this in Thunderbird from SuSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10 RC1. It's actually the first Linux I can say that I have played with that things mostly just work. Novell has invested a LOT of RD into making Desktop Linux much, much better. I think SLED 10 would be great on a lot of corporate desktops. Maybe in 2-3 more releases it may be ready for Joe Consumer. Unlike Vista, I can actually *USE* the 3D desktop effects (XGL). I'm just afraid of having to support Vista when it comes out. It will be the first version of Windows that I won't know inside and out. -ben
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Tough, if you are pre-installing correctly they had the option at 1st boot to accept the EULA decide if home was what they wanted. Assuming they have not activated I dare say you could uninstall OEM Home (taking back the COA media) and do a fresh OEM Pro install without any issues. Personally I never recommend home simply because of the missing security settings but would not feel bad if the customer is too lazy or stupid to to take time to understand why before plunking down the money for the cheaper home version. People want pastries but are only willing to pay Pop Tart prices, yet do not seem to understand the difference until they taste the Pop Tart and realize it's no pastry. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Here is the scenario I have seen customers face and some took the bait: Customer orders a new computer with XP Home which is $90.00 on his invoice from me (I line item quote new computers) Customer changes his mind a week later and wants XP Pro which sells for $180.00 in the local stores, the Upgrade version. Customer asks me for advice. My Windows XP Pro OEM kits are $150.00. Can't do that as the computer is not new anymore, so it legally does not qualify for my OEM kit, but requires the Upgrade version. Customer now pays $180.00 to upgrade from XP Home OEM to XP Pro Upgrade version. Total outlay for Windows hits $270.00 in a week! Rip-off or what? snip
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
I also agree that Vista is bad, more bloat, more requirements, more confusion and not much extra functionality.although I am kind of forced to upgrade to it as I dual-boot MCE2005 and XP64 (and its becoming an annoyance), which Vista will roll into one product for me. The 512MB memory requirement I am in no way surprised at, the requirements always go up and 1GB is entry-level for most people these days. The 128MB graphics card for Aero is surprising though, I just can't imagine what they could put in a UI that would seriously require that much video card memory..the mind boggles on that one. Perhaps they cannot judge a cards 3D performace too well and are saying all cards with 128MB or more are generally powerful enough for the features they are implementing? Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office. This firm is not authorised by the Financial Services Authority. However, we are included on the Register maintained by the Financial Services Authority so that we can carry on insurance mediation activity in the UK, which is broadly the advising on, selling and administration of insurance contracts. This part of our business, including arrangements for complaints or redress if something goes wrong, is regulated by The Law Society. The Register can be accessed via the Financial Services Authority website at www.fsa.gov.uk/register.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
RAM, yes 512MB is the norm. Not that you should pay the ass-raping prices vendors want to upgrade to 512MB, 1 stick, etc... but you should have that even if you have to buy the system with lowest RAM upgrade 3rd party. Desktop? Screw that, name one good reason to use the 3d to render a 2d desktop? I had not thought of it, but the laptop thing with more power consumption makes sense. Personally I even ramp my CPU down to max battery when I am not going to do CPU intensive stuff. Worst thing they did with XP was that start menu locking you into MS only themes, oh and the brain-dead Home version. Eli Allen wrote: So you think the system requirements for software should never increase? 512 megs of ram isn't that uncommon these days. As to Aero, whats wrong with requiring full DX 9 hardware with 128 megs of ram? You don't need to run Aero to use Vista so they were right in designing Aero for the future, remember its a complete redesign of the UI to move it all into 3d and better to do it all at once then a small piece at a time. No need to design it so it can run on less powerful hardware as that would limit it from its full potential. Think about it from the perspective of a programmer, should they be forced to target the UI they make for their apps to run on a multitude of UI renders? Wouldn't it be much better for them to assume an Aero UI can take advantage of everything?
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
What does aero give you? Simple answer: http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=114694 - Original Message - From: warpmedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. RAM, yes 512MB is the norm. Not that you should pay the ass-raping prices vendors want to upgrade to 512MB, 1 stick, etc... but you should have that even if you have to buy the system with lowest RAM upgrade 3rd party. Desktop? Screw that, name one good reason to use the 3d to render a 2d desktop? I had not thought of it, but the laptop thing with more power consumption makes sense. Personally I even ramp my CPU down to max battery when I am not going to do CPU intensive stuff. Worst thing they did with XP was that start menu locking you into MS only themes, oh and the brain-dead Home version.
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Here's the way it went down at the MS Partner's meeting though - (Microsoft/AMD TechTour) the basic statement: 512MB will -barely- run Windows Vista and they noted the real minimum requirements should be: A processor 2.5Ghz (or Equiv) and higher 1GB of RAM 256MB DX9 Video Card So there you go. They noted that Vista was designed to take advantage of more then 128GB of system memory, so hey, 1GB was nothing a starting point ;) And that most power users would want 4GB and More :) CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eli Allen Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 6:46 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. So you think the system requirements for software should never increase? 512 megs of ram isn't that uncommon these days. As to Aero, whats wrong with requiring full DX 9 hardware with 128 megs of ram? You don't need to run Aero to use Vista so they were right in designing Aero for the future, remember its a complete redesign of the UI to move it all into 3d and better to do it all at once then a small piece at a time. No need to design it so it can run on less powerful hardware as that would limit it from its full potential. Think about it from the perspective of a programmer, should they be forced to target the UI they make for their apps to run on a multitude of UI renders? Wouldn't it be much better for them to assume an Aero UI can take advantage of everything? - Original Message - From: Ben Ruset [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. I have access to the Vista betas via my company's MSDN subscription. I've played with some of the previous betas and pretty much came to the same conclusion as Chris. First off, the system requirements are a joke. One of the nice things about previous versions of Windows is that they would run (slowly, perhaps) on systems with low amounts of RAM. I once had Windows 2000 Server running on a P2-300 with 128MB of RAM, running as an Active Directory domain controller in a production environment. Vista requires 512MB of RAM as a minimum. Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. The UI changes are extremely frustrating. The stanard File - Edit - View menus on explorer windows are gone. You have to dig through some menus to enable them. The new start menu is pretty bad as well. I didn't really look into Device Manager at all, as the system supported all of my hardware right out of the box. I also didn't care about encrypting my file system, so I can't comment about any of Chris's experiences there. XP, I believe, is pretty much the pinnacle of Windows development. Vista is mostly XP with some eyecandy, IE7, and a lot of frustrating usability changes. I don't think people are going to rush out and say HEY I GOT TO UPGRADE TO VISTA like we saw with Win95 (or even to an extent with XP.) Vista will move units only because OEM's will preload it. Playing with Vista has made me more interested in desktop Linux. I'm typing this in Thunderbird from SuSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10 RC1. It's actually the first Linux I can say that I have played with that things mostly just work. Novell has invested a LOT of RD into making Desktop Linux much, much better. I think SLED 10 would be great on a lot of corporate desktops. Maybe in 2-3 more releases it may be ready for Joe Consumer. Unlike Vista, I can actually *USE* the 3D desktop effects (XGL). I'm just afraid of having to support Vista when it comes out. It will be the first version of Windows that I won't know inside and out. -ben
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
So far, outside of the winkey-tab alt-tab replacement, I haven't seen any enormous advantage to a 3d environment. Transparent windows(?) Hell, I could do that now with stardock if I wanted. I somewhat get conceptually where they are trying to go. Part of the bigger problem I think they face is that what has changed (look/feel) will take a consumer relearn on some level, and in the end doesn't actually provide much in the way of functionality improvement. Ie, it's not more intuitive or saving people tons of time, it just seems like a change for change sake. Meanwhile, the real things under the hood that could change I haven't seen. Moving drivers is a neat issue, Greg, but when you're constantly using 3D rendering on a video card it means you are far more likely to have that video card throw an error out at you. Rendering 2d for your video card, as someone pointed out is child's play. Having it continuously in a 3D enabled mode means it's using more power; more heat; more chances for a nice graphics crash. Not sure what great benefit there is in that. The network functionality has improved somewhat but because of the new difficulties in re-configuring Windows Firewall and the integrated Windows Defender, network usage can now be an uber-annoyance. Continually prompting users to allow this or allow that. I get the idea, it basically lets them off the hook if a machine gets hosed hey, you allowed for that to happen, but there should be an easier way to turn all of that crap off. And I don't mean allowing programs or websites; I mean start Windows Device Manager and before hand you get prompted every time allow this program to run? Hell, it's a freaking MS program! The layout of the start menu, which works as a swing-back design is fine for those who don't have a lot of programs they use on a frequent basis, but will become quickly infuriating to those who do. And instead of allowing for a flip back to an XP/2003 look start menu, classic flips you back to the traditional 98 menu. I could go on. But I have a feeling it's time to get serious about investigating other options. CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Sevart Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:06 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. But the big claim to fame of Aero is a completely 3D rendered desktop. Gone is the 2D mode--your desktop is rendered just as any modern game is. This, naturally, consumes a lot more memory and GPU resources. I'm very curious to see what else can be done now that the interface is truly 3D... Honestly, I think one of the biggest advantages of Vista will be moving the audio driver out of kernel mode and into user mode. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reboot computers just because the sound driver hiccupped. Printing is also supposedly new, finally getting away from the old buggy spooler used for years. The new network stack is supposedly more responsive, too... I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic. Make no mistake, though: Vista probably won't be going on my machine until SP1. Greg
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
At 08:50 AM 05/06/2006, warpmedia wrote: Personally I never recommend home simply because of the missing security settings but would not feel bad if the customer is too lazy or stupid to to take time to understand why before plunking down the money for the cheaper home version. People want pastries but are only willing to pay Pop Tart prices, yet do not seem to understand the difference until they taste the Pop Tart and realize it's no pastry. What are the missing security settings? T
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Take a look at media center. Aero is not about making windows look better like a new theme in XP, its about allowing the applications themselves to do more in the way they display their UI. - Original Message - From: Chris Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Hardware List' hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:30 AM Subject: RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. So far, outside of the winkey-tab alt-tab replacement, I haven't seen any enormous advantage to a 3d environment. Transparent windows(?) Hell, I could do that now with stardock if I wanted.
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
I should also note, the requirement of DX9 is one part; but it's 128MB of dedicated Video RAM, but if you are using UMA (say an Nvidia 6150 Motherboard, etc.) you will need 256MB mapped to onboard video by their recommendation. CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 6:56 AM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. I also agree that Vista is bad, more bloat, more requirements, more confusion and not much extra functionality.although I am kind of forced to upgrade to it as I dual-boot MCE2005 and XP64 (and its becoming an annoyance), which Vista will roll into one product for me. The 512MB memory requirement I am in no way surprised at, the requirements always go up and 1GB is entry-level for most people these days. The 128MB graphics card for Aero is surprising though, I just can't imagine what they could put in a UI that would seriously require that much video card memory..the mind boggles on that one. Perhaps they cannot judge a cards 3D performace too well and are saying all cards with 128MB or more are generally powerful enough for the features they are implementing? Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office. This firm is not authorised by the Financial Services Authority. However, we are included on the Register maintained by the Financial Services Authority so that we can carry on insurance mediation activity in the UK, which is broadly the advising on, selling and administration of insurance contracts. This part of our business, including arrangements for complaints or redress if something goes wrong, is regulated by The Law Society. The Register can be accessed via the Financial Services Authority website at www.fsa.gov.uk/register.
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
At 09:30 AM 05/06/2006, Chris Reeves wrote: Rendering 2d for your video card, as someone pointed out is child's play. Having it continuously in a 3D enabled mode means it's using more power; more heat; more chances for a nice graphics crash. Not sure what great benefit there is in that. And how many laptops have 128MB of video RAM or more? Not many. So Vista isn't for laptops, clearly. Of course, they're looking to the future, when we all buy new ones. :) T
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
- Original Message - From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. And how many laptops have 128MB of video RAM or more? Not many. So Vista isn't for laptops, clearly. Of course, they're looking to the future, when we all buy new ones. :) In my opinion, operating system upgrades are a huge gamble, pure and simple. The customer bets at least $90.00 (the street price in the stores for Win 95 Upgrade, Win 98 Upgrade, Win Me Upgrade and Win XP Home Upgrade) against the odds of getting $90.00 in value. If it does not work out, Microsoft keeps the $90.00 if the package has been opened. True, Microsoft will allow it to be migrated to another computer if it was never authenticated. Only the high end computers that were purchased close to the tail end of the change by Microsoft from one OS to a new OS, run well with OS upgrades. For example, high end computers purchased in 2005 or 2006 are most likely to take an upgrade to Vista decently. Around Albany, GA over 90% of computers are very low end. The low end ones barely handle the OS that came on them. The problem is the customer does not know this and often buys and upgrade to their OS. Microsoft gets paid twice for the OS on the same computer when it is upgraded. Again, my opinion. I would love to see all those low end computers denied an upgrade by their owners. They can be passed on to the kids or sold, thus providing the poor who can not afford a new computer a used computer. Even if this advice is followed, if the customer does not learn how to spec. a computer and buy well above the low end one, they will get poor performance from whatever OS that comes on it. So what can be worse than a sluggish low end desktop that has received and OS upgrade? A low end laptop that has received and OS upgrade, as they are more sluggish than desktops with the same specs. anyway. Chuck
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
If MS is to be believed from the QA after their tech stop they will offer no 'upgrade' versions at any price break True of both Vista and anyone going from SBS2003 to SBS2003R2 will also pay full boat all over again Unless you purchased within 180 days at which point some sort of mail in rebate / mailed version may be sent to you CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:41:45 To:The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. - Original Message - From: Thane Sherrington (S) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. And how many laptops have 128MB of video RAM or more? Not many. So Vista isn't for laptops, clearly. Of course, they're looking to the future, when we all buy new ones. :) In my opinion, operating system upgrades are a huge gamble, pure and simple. The customer bets at least $90.00 (the street price in the stores for Win 95 Upgrade, Win 98 Upgrade, Win Me Upgrade and Win XP Home Upgrade) against the odds of getting $90.00 in value. If it does not work out, Microsoft keeps the $90.00 if the package has been opened. True, Microsoft will allow it to be migrated to another computer if it was never authenticated. Only the high end computers that were purchased close to the tail end of the change by Microsoft from one OS to a new OS, run well with OS upgrades. For example, high end computers purchased in 2005 or 2006 are most likely to take an upgrade to Vista decently. Around Albany, GA over 90% of computers are very low end. The low end ones barely handle the OS that came on them. The problem is the customer does not know this and often buys and upgrade to their OS. Microsoft gets paid twice for the OS on the same computer when it is upgraded. Again, my opinion. I would love to see all those low end computers denied an upgrade by their owners. They can be passed on to the kids or sold, thus providing the poor who can not afford a new computer a used computer. Even if this advice is followed, if the customer does not learn how to spec. a computer and buy well above the low end one, they will get poor performance from whatever OS that comes on it. So what can be worse than a sluggish low end desktop that has received and OS upgrade? A low end laptop that has received and OS upgrade, as they are more sluggish than desktops with the same specs. anyway. Chuck
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Meh, even 90% of todays high end laptops of today won't be able to run Vista with full effects. My laptop runs Vista without Aero just fine. But then again I have 2GB of RAM in it. :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So what can be worse than a sluggish low end desktop that has received and OS upgrade? A low end laptop that has received and OS upgrade, as they are more sluggish than desktops with the same specs. anyway. Chuck
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
At 17:13 6/4/2006, CW, wrote: I've spent the weekend playing with Vista after hearing all the perks and the like from those touting it at the Microsoft meeting here in KC on Thursday. The fundamental problem with Vista is one that I don't think is addressed by Microsoft's continual talk of new features being added. That isn't the problem. The problem is that for power users, so many of the common tasks are made cumbersome to impossible that it defeats a big part of the purpose of upgrading. Thanks for this great review. I think I'll stick with W2K and avoid the authorization hassles of XP, and the obfuscation of Vista. Yeah, agreed, I think I will stick with win2k for now. I might upgrade to Vista when SP1 comes out and alot of the bugs are fixed. Start Here to Find It Fast! - http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names - http://domains.us-webmasters.com/
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Here is a list of the various versions of Vista and some information about them... http://winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions.asp One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista Basically seven commonly available versions, double that so you have 32bit / 64 bit versions. Add in tablet edition, as well as other upgrade versions... Vista makes me think of matrix reloaded. Liked the original can't figure out how they screwed up the sequel CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless -Original Message- From: FORC5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:35:55 To:The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. on a side note I beta test for Duocor and system guardian backup, my source in Japan tells me Vista is giving them fits, backups do not boot being the main one so something else is afoot if even something that should be simple as a backup will not boot. Means a new version of ghost too I'm sure. Me on the fence on this one. fp At 03:13 PM 6/4/2006, CW Poked the stick with: I'm glad that Microsoft danced us up and talked to us about how great Vista would be, and how it would really drive the market. Right now, based on what I have in front of me, I don't see it. With Windows XP betas, Win2k, even Windows 95, you walked out of it saying There are at least 5-10 features that are fundamental OS changes that significantly impact work. Vista isn't any of those. Unlike XP which really changed the way for USB connectivity, brought NTFS home, as well as significant improvements in networking and drive management.. Vista just doesn't seem to bring a single functionality change to Windows that makes you say this is a must have. I keep getting email from MS that intones that hey, it's not functionally complete. Ok, fine. But unless the functionality is a total scrap of the UI as well as a change in the file structure, mapping and networking functionality which right now seem like a throwback in usability, I don't know how adding more things helps this frankenstein. -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Man: There is nothing more miserable and more arrogant.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista Basically seven commonly available versions, double that so you have 32bit / 64 bit versions. Add in tablet edition, as well as other upgrade versions... Vista makes me think of matrix reloaded. Liked the original can't figure out how they screwed up the sequel CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless Here is a list of the various versions of Vista and some information about them... http://winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions.asp -Original Message- From: FORC5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:35:55 To:The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. on a side note I beta test for Duocor and system guardian backup, my source in Japan tells me Vista is giving them fits, backups do not boot being the main one so something else is afoot if even something that should be simple as a backup will not boot. Means a new version of ghost too I'm sure. Me on the fence on this one. fp At 03:13 PM 6/4/2006, CW Poked the stick with: I'm glad that Microsoft danced us up and talked to us about how great Vista would be, and how it would really drive the market. Right now, based on what I have in front of me, I don't see it. With Windows XP betas, Win2k, even Windows 95, you walked out of it saying There are at least 5-10 features that are fundamental OS changes that significantly impact work. Vista isn't any of those. Unlike XP which really changed the way for USB connectivity, brought NTFS home, as well as significant improvements in networking and drive management.. Vista just doesn't seem to bring a single functionality change to Windows that makes you say this is a must have. I keep getting email from MS that intones that hey, it's not functionally complete. Ok, fine. But unless the functionality is a total scrap of the UI as well as a change in the file structure, mapping and networking functionality which right now seem like a throwback in usability, I don't know how adding more things helps this frankenstein. -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Man: There is nothing more miserable and more arrogant.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
On NTFS drives you have NO security tab and thus no way to set security per folder or file. It's synonymous to simple file sharing on the local side in the sense that either you have admin rights or user rights to folder but no tweaking. Bottom line is they dumbed it down and not just the inability to join a domain. Thane Sherrington (S) wrote: At 08:50 AM 05/06/2006, warpmedia wrote: Personally I never recommend home simply because of the missing security settings but would not feel bad if the customer is too lazy or stupid to to take time to understand why before plunking down the money for the cheaper home version. People want pastries but are only willing to pay Pop Tart prices, yet do not seem to understand the difference until they taste the Pop Tart and realize it's no pastry. What are the missing security settings? T
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Aero isn't for current generation laptops, but Aero is just a part of Vista. Plus looking to the future is good, I'd rather have a major new UI API done once that everytime new HW comes out that enables one extra little function. Makes writing code easier - Original Message - At 09:30 AM 05/06/2006, Chris Reeves wrote: Rendering 2d for your video card, as someone pointed out is child's play. Having it continuously in a 3D enabled mode means it's using more power; more heat; more chances for a nice graphics crash. Not sure what great benefit there is in that. And how many laptops have 128MB of video RAM or more? Not many. So Vista isn't for laptops, clearly. Of course, they're looking to the future, when we all buy new ones. :) T
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Things will never seem fair when one product is replaced by another forcing the user to pay again if they want the new stuff. But how is MS any worse then other companies? Want them to be like Apple and be very secretive about what is coming out and when? So a user may buy something without any chance of knowing it will be replaced by something much better tomorrow? Eli - Original Message - If MS is to be believed from the QA after their tech stop they will offer no 'upgrade' versions at any price break True of both Vista and anyone going from SBS2003 to SBS2003R2 will also pay full boat all over again Unless you purchased within 180 days at which point some sort of mail in rebate / mailed version may be sent to you CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
No I don't expect that but when I upgraded from NT 3.5 to NT 4.0 they gave users a discount. When we went from 2000 to 2003 those with 2000 got a price break back Going basically from SBS SP1 to SBS SPe and being forced to pay $700 for something even they even they admit is basically two new items and bug fixes CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless -Original Message- From: Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 19:03:49 To:The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. Things will never seem fair when one product is replaced by another forcing the user to pay again if they want the new stuff. But how is MS any worse then other companies? Want them to be like Apple and be very secretive about what is coming out and when? So a user may buy something without any chance of knowing it will be replaced by something much better tomorrow? Eli - Original Message - If MS is to be believed from the QA after their tech stop they will offer no 'upgrade' versions at any price break True of both Vista and anyone going from SBS2003 to SBS2003R2 will also pay full boat all over again Unless you purchased within 180 days at which point some sort of mail in rebate / mailed version may be sent to you CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Most people can get by fine with just home basic anyway Richard Kim wrote: Not that bad or confusing? I'm sure M$ is not going to give refunds or exchanges of you buy one edition and end up needed another one. Just buy the most expensive, most feature laden one. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eli Allen Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:49 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. While it is bad, its not that confusing. See: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions.asp Only 17 version. Which really isn't that bad as starter is only for developing areas and the N versions are just for Europe. Plus all the editions besides starter have two different versions for 32 bit and 64 bit which are the same feature wise. So in the end only 6 different editions to keep track of in the US (making 12 different versions) 4 business editions and 3 home editions (ultimate falls under both). Tablet functionality and media center are built into the OS (i.e. no different versions like XP is today) the full list is: Windows Starter 2007 Windows Vista Home N (Europe only) Windows Vista Home Basic Windows Vista Home Premium Windows Vista Business N (Europe only) Windows Vista Business Windows Vista Small Business Windows Vista Enterprise Windows Vista Ultimate - Original Message - From: Chris Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista Basically seven commonly available versions, double that so you have 32bit / 64 bit versions. Add in tablet edition, as well as other upgrade versions... Vista makes me think of matrix reloaded. Liked the original can't figure out how they screwed up the sequel CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Greg Sevart wrote: Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. But the big claim to fame of Aero is a completely 3D rendered desktop. Gone is the 2D mode--your desktop is rendered just as any modern game is. This, naturally, consumes a lot more memory and GPU resources. I'm very curious to see what else can be done now that the interface is truly 3D... Ah...we now have a reason to have that nice hardware besides just playing games. Hence, this justifies PC components like $500+ vidcards! This is what the industry needs. Honestly, I think one of the biggest advantages of Vista will be moving the audio driver out of kernel mode and into user mode. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reboot computers just because the sound driver hiccupped. Printing is also supposedly new, finally getting away from the old buggy spooler used for years. The new network stack is supposedly more responsive, too... I'm so sick of the lame print spooler that we'd dealt with for years. I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic. Make no mistake, though: Vista probably won't be going on my machine until SP1. Well, anything that makes computing seem fresh is a good thing, IMO.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Microsoft won a long time ago. Period! :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Case closed and Microsoft wins again, $270.00 for one computer because the customer made the wrong choice in the beginning. Chuck
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Use OLD OSs for old hardware. Vista is a new OS for newer hardware.and increasingly so, newer machines come with stuff that Vista can run on...so it's not really about requiring new hardware, but using the hardware that's already there and/or available... Eli Allen wrote: So you think the system requirements for software should never increase? 512 megs of ram isn't that uncommon these days. As to Aero, whats wrong with requiring full DX 9 hardware with 128 megs of ram? You don't need to run Aero to use Vista so they were right in designing Aero for the future, remember its a complete redesign of the UI to move it all into 3d and better to do it all at once then a small piece at a time. No need to design it so it can run on less powerful hardware as that would limit it from its full potential. Think about it from the perspective of a programmer, should they be forced to target the UI they make for their apps to run on a multitude of UI renders? Wouldn't it be much better for them to assume an Aero UI can take advantage of everything?
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
You guys kinda surprise me. Many of you have top-notch systems and components, yet you want an OS that supports mostly minimal hardware. Why? Vista represents an OS designed to run on and fully utilize the type of hardware that we see sold today. Big memory vidcards and lots of system ram are the norm, as are super fat HDs, etc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also agree that Vista is bad, more bloat, more requirements, more confusion and not much extra functionality.although I am kind of forced to upgrade to it as I dual-boot MCE2005 and XP64 (and its becoming an annoyance), which Vista will roll into one product for me. The 512MB memory requirement I am in no way surprised at, the requirements always go up and 1GB is entry-level for most people these days. The 128MB graphics card for Aero is surprising though, I just can't imagine what they could put in a UI that would seriously require that much video card memory..the mind boggles on that one. Perhaps they cannot judge a cards 3D performace too well and are saying all cards with 128MB or more are generally powerful enough for the features they are implementing? Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 goes wrong, is regulated by The Law Society. The Register can be accessed via the Financial Services Authority website at www.fsa.gov.uk/register.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
That seems reasonable to me. If you're running old hardware, use XP. If you want to run what's typical for sale today and a reasonable price point, get Vista. Gosh, I've been running 2 GB of Ram for almost 2 years now. I bet most of you have too. Chris Reeves wrote: Here's the way it went down at the MS Partner's meeting though - (Microsoft/AMD TechTour) the basic statement: 512MB will -barely- run Windows Vista and they noted the real minimum requirements should be: A processor 2.5Ghz (or Equiv) and higher 1GB of RAM 256MB DX9 Video Card So there you go. They noted that Vista was designed to take advantage of more then 128GB of system memory, so hey, 1GB was nothing a starting point ;) And that most power users would want 4GB and More :)
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
My $600 Compaq Presario V2404US laptop runs Vista just fine, including the Aero glass effect. Initially it had only 512 MB RAM but I increased that recently to 1.5 GB, which did result in speedier operation. Of that RAM, 128 MB is being used by the integrated graphics processor, so initially the OS had only 384 MB available. The integrated graphics chip is an ATI Radeon Xpress 200M which fully supports all of Vista's special effects. Gary VanderMolen - Original Message - Meh, even 90% of todays high end laptops of today won't be able to run Vista with full effects.
[H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
I've spent the weekend playing with Vista after hearing all the perks and the like from those touting it at the Microsoft meeting here in KC on Thursday. The fundamental problem with Vista is one that I don't think is addressed by Microsoft's continual talk of new features being added. That isn't the problem. The problem is that for power users, so many of the common tasks are made cumbersome to impossible that it defeats a big part of the purpose of upgrading. I know of numerous users who keep the base icons out on the desktop (my computer, my network, etc.) along with whatever they most frequent. That's a staple within older versions of windows, so the fact that they are there makes it handy. The display properties tool within Windows Vista is garbage. Theme management and creation, as well as icon assignment is virtually non-existant, it simply cannot be done. So, instead, users find themselves dragging icons out of the menus onto a desktop. Yes, I get it, Microsoft has so greatly improved the tools that you don't need them. But what Microsoft forgets is that familiarity is part of it's advantage. While it is great that they move toward an entirely new lookout, the ability to roll back for those who are very familiar with current environments will be a major perk. The failure to provide for it- which so far is exactly where it is going, creates a distance between the user and the OS. Admittedly, I'm someone who likes to pop open a CMD prompt every now and again to fish things out. I grew up on DOS and I still find it at times to be incredibly easier and more efficient to do what I want to do. Vista takes some of that frustration to all new levels. Because of the way in which the management interface and updates are handled, the user is provided minimal information about what kind of updates are being downloaded and what the purpose of them are. To get that kind of information requires a user to manually do so, click INFORMATION and then MORE. Is Aero Cool? Yes, and there are many things that I find interesting about Vista that I think are the right directions. But fundamentally, outside of a change in interface, has Microsoft really altered anything so groundshaking that I say wow ? No, not really. In fact, many of the base components remain completely untouched which makes Vista a Microsoft-Bob like Shell on top of Traditional XP. Yes, I realize there is more to it then that, but let's cover what is not, and will not change: * File System remains NTFS. Yes, there are new options for Disk Encryption - but be prepared, as MS explained to us in a tech meeting, if you use it and your motherboard or another device fails, your data is WORTHLESS. They will never issue a recovery or backdoor because doing so would make the entire technology a joke, so if you use it, be prepared, you better be backing up. This makes it not nearly as convenient, safe or movable as current drive encryption which can allow for a drive to move to a different PC, etc. provided the right codes. * Drive management (WDM) while changed does not provide a more open or user-oriented standard, rather, it further closes the driver standard with regards to authorized drivers, which puts smaller firms innovation in the realm of hardware on the real backburner. * Widgets. Be prepared, Widgets are cool, and there will be tons of them, but as a matter of seriousness, does an analog clock on your desktop really help you that much? Poker? Sodoku? Yeah, maybe not. Microsoft's guide toward widgets and RSS is a neat throw out toward Apple's similar technology within MacOS. In fact, a lot of Vista seems to really work hard to BE MacOS. The problem is, it isn't a very good MacOS, and the interface things we loved about XP are sadly missing. * Management and control functionality are scattered and poorly organized. Within Windows XP, a right click on your desktop puts all options for desktop properties in one application. Within Vista, it brings up a personalize menu featuring five different programs you can chose from, each of which handling one specific function (resolution/theme/screen saver) This turns a function that took one click within Windows XP into a minimum of three clicks in order to view desktop properties. Does this really simplify things? * Speaking of that, even within the current beta we received (5348, there may be a newer one, I'm sure there is, this is what they were handing out however) the device manager is still almost entirely worthless. Even within Windows XP 64, unknown devices are at least labeled somewhat (Epson; FDC-GOLD; etc.) for you to find drivers. Within Vista, it all still remains unknown USB real helpful that is. I'm sure this part will change. * Vista's shutdown/reset routine is laughable. By maximizing the start menu real estate the hibernate button takes, and having a swing out present reset/shutdown, it is
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
At 17:13 6/4/2006, CW, wrote: I've spent the weekend playing with Vista after hearing all the perks and the like from those touting it at the Microsoft meeting here in KC on Thursday. The fundamental problem with Vista is one that I don't think is addressed by Microsoft's continual talk of new features being added. That isn't the problem. The problem is that for power users, so many of the common tasks are made cumbersome to impossible that it defeats a big part of the purpose of upgrading. Thanks for this great review. I think I'll stick with W2K and avoid the authorization hassles of XP, and the obfuscation of Vista. Start Here to Find It Fast! - http://www.US-Webmasters.com/best-start-page/ $8.77 Domain Names - http://domains.us-webmasters.com/
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
on a side note I beta test for Duocor and system guardian backup, my source in Japan tells me Vista is giving them fits, backups do not boot being the main one so something else is afoot if even something that should be simple as a backup will not boot. Means a new version of ghost too I'm sure. Me on the fence on this one. fp At 03:13 PM 6/4/2006, CW Poked the stick with: I'm glad that Microsoft danced us up and talked to us about how great Vista would be, and how it would really drive the market. Right now, based on what I have in front of me, I don't see it. With Windows XP betas, Win2k, even Windows 95, you walked out of it saying There are at least 5-10 features that are fundamental OS changes that significantly impact work. Vista isn't any of those. Unlike XP which really changed the way for USB connectivity, brought NTFS home, as well as significant improvements in networking and drive management.. Vista just doesn't seem to bring a single functionality change to Windows that makes you say this is a must have. I keep getting email from MS that intones that hey, it's not functionally complete. Ok, fine. But unless the functionality is a total scrap of the UI as well as a change in the file structure, mapping and networking functionality which right now seem like a throwback in usability, I don't know how adding more things helps this frankenstein. -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Man: There is nothing more miserable and more arrogant.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista Basically seven commonly available versions, double that so you have 32bit / 64 bit versions. Add in tablet edition, as well as other upgrade versions... Vista makes me think of matrix reloaded. Liked the original can't figure out how they screwed up the sequel CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless -Original Message- From: FORC5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 16:35:55 To:The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. on a side note I beta test for Duocor and system guardian backup, my source in Japan tells me Vista is giving them fits, backups do not boot being the main one so something else is afoot if even something that should be simple as a backup will not boot. Means a new version of ghost too I'm sure. Me on the fence on this one. fp At 03:13 PM 6/4/2006, CW Poked the stick with: I'm glad that Microsoft danced us up and talked to us about how great Vista would be, and how it would really drive the market. Right now, based on what I have in front of me, I don't see it. With Windows XP betas, Win2k, even Windows 95, you walked out of it saying There are at least 5-10 features that are fundamental OS changes that significantly impact work. Vista isn't any of those. Unlike XP which really changed the way for USB connectivity, brought NTFS home, as well as significant improvements in networking and drive management.. Vista just doesn't seem to bring a single functionality change to Windows that makes you say this is a must have. I keep getting email from MS that intones that hey, it's not functionally complete. Ok, fine. But unless the functionality is a total scrap of the UI as well as a change in the file structure, mapping and networking functionality which right now seem like a throwback in usability, I don't know how adding more things helps this frankenstein. -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Man: There is nothing more miserable and more arrogant.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Me on the fence on this one. fp Yeah, the DRM alone is enough to repel me. I just hope they keep supporting XP with service packs. It's been a while since SP2... George --- My project page, comin' at ya: http://www.gammaburst.net Particle Fury: Eye-catching 3D memory benchmark. Over 20,000 downloads. PhoenixSID: FPGA-based digital/analog music synth a'la the C64's 'SID' sound chip. Robotics stuff and more!
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Sounds like good times for x86 Mac users who still need to use windows with boot camp! At least until the next DirectX version comes out Vista only (god forbid) and forces gamers to make a choice. If you want (almost) free legit windows XP (screw 2K) take the 1st college course for MCSE and get XP as part of your learning tools. =) George Pantazopoulos wrote: Me on the fence on this one. fp Yeah, the DRM alone is enough to repel me. I just hope they keep supporting XP with service packs. It's been a while since SP2... George
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
While it is bad, its not that confusing. See: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions.asp Only 17 version. Which really isn't that bad as starter is only for developing areas and the N versions are just for Europe. Plus all the editions besides starter have two different versions for 32 bit and 64 bit which are the same feature wise. So in the end only 6 different editions to keep track of in the US (making 12 different versions) 4 business editions and 3 home editions (ultimate falls under both). Tablet functionality and media center are built into the OS (i.e. no different versions like XP is today) the full list is: Windows Starter 2007 Windows Vista Home N (Europe only) Windows Vista Home Basic Windows Vista Home Premium Windows Vista Business N (Europe only) Windows Vista Business Windows Vista Small Business Windows Vista Enterprise Windows Vista Ultimate - Original Message - From: Chris Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista Basically seven commonly available versions, double that so you have 32bit / 64 bit versions. Add in tablet edition, as well as other upgrade versions... Vista makes me think of matrix reloaded. Liked the original can't figure out how they screwed up the sequel CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless
RE: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Not that bad or confusing? I'm sure M$ is not going to give refunds or exchanges of you buy one edition and end up needed another one. Just buy the most expensive, most feature laden one. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eli Allen Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:49 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. While it is bad, its not that confusing. See: http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_editions.asp Only 17 version. Which really isn't that bad as starter is only for developing areas and the N versions are just for Europe. Plus all the editions besides starter have two different versions for 32 bit and 64 bit which are the same feature wise. So in the end only 6 different editions to keep track of in the US (making 12 different versions) 4 business editions and 3 home editions (ultimate falls under both). Tablet functionality and media center are built into the OS (i.e. no different versions like XP is today) the full list is: Windows Starter 2007 Windows Vista Home N (Europe only) Windows Vista Home Basic Windows Vista Home Premium Windows Vista Business N (Europe only) Windows Vista Business Windows Vista Small Business Windows Vista Enterprise Windows Vista Ultimate - Original Message - From: Chris Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage. One of the other problems vista will face is market confusion. There will be EIGHTEEN different versions of Vista Basically seven commonly available versions, double that so you have 32bit / 64 bit versions. Add in tablet edition, as well as other upgrade versions... Vista makes me think of matrix reloaded. Liked the original can't figure out how they screwed up the sequel CW Sent via BlackBerry from Cingular Wireless
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
I have access to the Vista betas via my company's MSDN subscription. I've played with some of the previous betas and pretty much came to the same conclusion as Chris. First off, the system requirements are a joke. One of the nice things about previous versions of Windows is that they would run (slowly, perhaps) on systems with low amounts of RAM. I once had Windows 2000 Server running on a P2-300 with 128MB of RAM, running as an Active Directory domain controller in a production environment. Vista requires 512MB of RAM as a minimum. Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. The UI changes are extremely frustrating. The stanard File - Edit - View menus on explorer windows are gone. You have to dig through some menus to enable them. The new start menu is pretty bad as well. I didn't really look into Device Manager at all, as the system supported all of my hardware right out of the box. I also didn't care about encrypting my file system, so I can't comment about any of Chris's experiences there. XP, I believe, is pretty much the pinnacle of Windows development. Vista is mostly XP with some eyecandy, IE7, and a lot of frustrating usability changes. I don't think people are going to rush out and say HEY I GOT TO UPGRADE TO VISTA like we saw with Win95 (or even to an extent with XP.) Vista will move units only because OEM's will preload it. Playing with Vista has made me more interested in desktop Linux. I'm typing this in Thunderbird from SuSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10 RC1. It's actually the first Linux I can say that I have played with that things mostly just work. Novell has invested a LOT of RD into making Desktop Linux much, much better. I think SLED 10 would be great on a lot of corporate desktops. Maybe in 2-3 more releases it may be ready for Joe Consumer. Unlike Vista, I can actually *USE* the 3D desktop effects (XGL). I'm just afraid of having to support Vista when it comes out. It will be the first version of Windows that I won't know inside and out. -ben
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
I've been playing with the beta as well, on a pretty good laptop, 512 megs, P4 1.7 gig Mobile processor, 5400 rpm drive, and it's shite. It says this laptop is only a 1 on the hardware scale. Most sub-systems test as 3, but since the graphics is only 32 megs, it downgrades the whole system since I can't run Aero. ;) First thing I did after install was change it to Classic mode, but still don't like it. Too hard to find things when you want to actually make changes. :( I've spent the weekend playing with Vista after hearing all the perks and the like from those touting it at the Microsoft meeting here in KC on Thursday. The fundamental problem with Vista is one that I don't think is addressed by Microsoft's continual talk of new features being added. That isn't the problem. The problem is that for power users, so many of the common tasks are made cumbersome to impossible that it defeats a big part of the purpose of upgrading. -- JRS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please remove **X** to reply... Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
I think that is what they want fp At 07:37 PM 6/4/2006, Ben Ruset Poked the stick with: I'm just afraid of having to support Vista when it comes out. It will be the first version of Windows that I won't know inside and out. -ben -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Earth was interesting, and worth the money I paid for it.
Re: [H] I'm convinced, Vista is garbage.
Areoglass's requirements are also a joke. I'm sorry, but I shouldn't need to have a dedicated graphics controller with 128mb of RAM just to get transparencies, the weird ALT-TAB replacement, etc. I'm running on a 6 month old Dell Inspiron 700m laptop with an Intel 850 graphics chipset. Granted, it's not the best, but I'm sorry, it should be enough to run Vista with at least some of the 3D effects. But the big claim to fame of Aero is a completely 3D rendered desktop. Gone is the 2D mode--your desktop is rendered just as any modern game is. This, naturally, consumes a lot more memory and GPU resources. I'm very curious to see what else can be done now that the interface is truly 3D... Honestly, I think one of the biggest advantages of Vista will be moving the audio driver out of kernel mode and into user mode. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reboot computers just because the sound driver hiccupped. Printing is also supposedly new, finally getting away from the old buggy spooler used for years. The new network stack is supposedly more responsive, too... I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic. Make no mistake, though: Vista probably won't be going on my machine until SP1. Greg
