Re: [modules] classloader/jit interface

[Ahmed Saad]

On 6/25/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So this API is really for the classes Method, Field and Class, rather
> than a bigger C API.  Does this make it harder for other languages to
> use or implement?  (I have to admit it's going to take a few to start
> thinking in C again...)

hmmm actually this leads back to two questions (for which there aren't
clear answers in previous threads)

1. what would be the implementation language? (or the anticipated
modular architecture  would also be language-independent)
2. which current VM implemention would we start refining as a core for
Harmony? (or we would write it from scratch)


-- 
-ahmed

If you can give me any information about how to 
study/work/live in the states or just a start 
point, I'd be really grateful if you do so.

Re: Harmony site now up http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/

[Ahmed Saad]

isn't JIRA enough? 

On 6/17/05, Mark Wielaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> We have bugzilla for Harmony now (thanks dims):
> http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Harmony
> 
>

[sidenotes] Platform of Platforms

[Ahmed Saad]

Hi all,

Please note that I'm not by any means trying to raise a debate of any kind 
I'm just trying to brain dump some thoughts about future development 
platforms.

I thought I'd share a "strange" thought that bubbled up in my mind while i 
was in the metro (aka the underground or the tube). I think what stimulated 
this idea are a set of articles i read about interoperability between java 
and .net. The emphasize here is on code-level interoperability not through 
any XML-based protocols (web services). Another thing is how each of the two 
platforms is trying to port in the best of the other. From tools or 
libraries (Ant -> NAnt, JUnit -> NUnit, etc) to Web development paradigms (
ASP.NET  WebForms -> J2EE JSF). I know the that under the 
hood WebForms and JSF are totally different but they essentially deliver the 
same: Web applications based on an event model with Page Controllers and can 
be visually designed by drag-and-dropping components in a visual editor. The 
two platforms are heading to the same place: productivity, performance, 
completeness. Did i miss somthing? oh yeah, being Cross-Platform. Both Java 
and .NET are built around machines abstraction runtimes. Sun offcially 
release JREs/JDKs for Windows, Linux and Solaris. Microsoft? .NET only for 
Windows ( but the shared source CLI (Common Language Infrastructure) can be 
build on Windows, FreeBSD and Mac OS X [
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=3a1c93fa-7462-47d0-8e56-8dd34c6292f0&displaylang=en].
Mono [http://www.go-mono.com] is taking, driven by Novell, .NET development 
on Unix-likes by a storm. Let's get back to our code-level interoperability 
talk. I think i only have to mention two projects to get to my point: the 
.NET-based JVM implementation known as IKVM [http://www.ikvm.net/] (which 
ships now with Mono) which makes such interoperability a snap, and 
Mainsoft's Grasshopper [http://www.mainsoft.com/], quoting their site:
"Grasshopper is a Visual Studio .NET(r) plug-in, which enables you to use C# 
or Visual Basic .NET(r) to develop cross-platform ASP.NET
applications that run on Linux
(r) and any platform running Apache Tomcat."

Now i finally come to the strange idea. What if someday, somehow, somewhere 
we come to the point where a platform could be developed atop these 
platforms!! Let's call it PX or Png (sure that would be a "next generation" 
platform :). So you write applications for PX and using PX Class Library 
(which is will be engineered to provide unified interface to the underlying 
Java/.NET class library)

I know it's a totally weird idea but who knows!!! Comments are welcome, for 
sure, and you all have a nice day. 

Regards,
ahmed

Re: [Legal] Requirements for Committers

[Ahmed Saad]

On 6/8/05, Steve Blackburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have never looked at non-free implementations, but I am interested to
> know what this means for those of us who have extensive exposure to
> implementations such as Kaffe (GPL) or Jikes RVM (CPL).  My reading of
> it is that I can't work on any part of Harmony for which I am tainted by
> my Jikes RVM exposure without permission from the copyright holder of
> Jikes RVM.  Is that right?

Same goes here!!  here is the story.. i got two books (Programming the
Java Virtual Machine and Inside the Java Virtual Machine).. i started
reading about VM internals... and i thought i'd download kaffe or
jikes RVM source code to look at their implementation and to play a
little after reading some chapters from one of these books... will i
be able to contribute to harmony vm if i do such?

(as for the classlibrary i never looked at the implementation but i
step in it  when debugging some web applications. and i'm still a
student so no employers or whatever)

-ahmed

Re: [arch] VM Interface

[Ahmed Saad]

On 6/7/05, Archie Cobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
[..]
> > Because it's possible that Sun finds this aspect of Harmony valuable
> > overall, and contributes information to help shape this.
> 
> I highly doubt that will happen (just my opinion though).
> 
> >> Secondly, you can no longer use Classpath as is, so Harmony will have
> >> to create a new fork of the Classpath code. Lots of work, zero forward
> >> progress.
> >
> > No, we won't fork GNU Classpath.  I don't understand why you believe  we
> > have to do this.
> 
> Well, the alternative is to convince the Classpath developers to completely
> rewrite the existing API to match whatever Sun currently does (which is
> unknown, and would probably taint them), and also convince all the current
> VM implementers to change their implementations. As a Classpath developer
> and VM implementer, I even more highly doubt that.
> 
> >> Thirdly, what's to stop Sun from changing things around every release?
> >> Their API is not standardized in any way. It involves "sun.*"
> >> classes, etc.
> >
> > Nothing.
> 
> So you have a moving, undocumented API to support. Sounds fun :-)
[..]

>From what i understood from the GNU Classpath VM Integration Guide, a
classlibrary-VM interface is intended to provide implementation for
some basic classes that are needed by this particular classlibrary to
get the work done, correct me anybody, please? (are there any other
requirements for such interface beyond some hooks? (maybe true for Sun
rt.jar))

Jikes RVM, Kaffe, SableVM, etc [implement Classpath-required
classes]> can use Classpath

Harmony VM [implement Classpath-required classes]> can use Classpath
Harmony VM [implement Sun rt.jar-required classes(??)] ---> can
use Sun rt.jar
Harmony VM [implement X-required classes]> can use X

maybe Harmony would:
1. determine which classes are required by each classlibrary
implementation: GNU, Sun (is this legal), are there any others? btw,
how will we know about Sun's? is src.zip enough ? (i doubt there are
any published docs about this)
2. work out a draft spec about what it takes for a common, well there
was only GUN and Sun, classlibrary-VM interface based on what we found
in Classpath and rt.jar
2. implement adpaters for Classpath and rt.jar (what i mean is that
Harmony spec will introduce a layer to abstract current
classlibrary-vm interfaces)

Apache can take this spec to the JCP and till it's approved the
adapaters will be enough (if sun changed the interface in the next
version we would work on a new adapeter. maybe there would be some
changes in the spec).

i haven't been down to a VM before but can such a thing be achived?

-ahmed

Re: [arch] VM Interface

[Ahmed Saad]

On 6/6/05, Peter Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The reason being that their customers do not
> want to be exposed to differences between rt.jar and GNU Classpath.

oh well aren't both implemented according to a well-designed exported
API. So how there would be differences that would hurt the clients of
this API (assuming that the GUN Classpath got completed and they are
both might be retrofitted to be easily installed in this modular
architecture even if they depend on some native libraries).


regards,
ahmed

Re: Linux Jar file execution

[Ahmed Saad]

hi Gery,

i read that howto a year ago or something but never tired it 
http://www.linuxhq.com/java.html

-ahmed

On 6/2/05, Gerry Steele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone got any thoughts on the possibility of making naively executable
> jars on Linux?
> 
> This is done on Windows through the file extensions mechanism. On Solairis
> they use magic numbers picked up by the kernel AFAIK. I guess a Linux
> implementation will require some kernel work too. I believe this might help
> usability a bit on Linux. It just occurs to me that an Open Source Java has
> a hell of a greater chance of working with the Kernel guys / Linus than Sun
> might ever have. Another point for harmony :).
> 
> Gerry
> 
> --
> Gerry Steele
> 
>

[compiler] JDT batch mode

[Ahmed Saad]

hi all.. as i posted before i was writing a wrapper for JDT to feel like 
"javac" (The TCK requires a JVM to look and feel like the Sun JVM, including 
the java/javac command lines as noted by Stefano Mazzocchi)... i read the 
jasper JDTCompiler class in the tomcat source code ... and i was googling 
for more info about how to programatically compile java sources with JDT... 
i found that JDT developers have already implemented such "batch" wrapper 
meaning so it's already done 
http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/index.cgi/%7Echeckout%7E/jdt-core-home/howto/batch%20compile/batchCompile.html

It supports all standard javac options...except for "-J option" which passes 
the specified option to the "java" launcher called by javac (can be 
implemented at the native binary for javac) and the "-X" options are also 
supported but using different names ( like "-warn:xx" instead of "-Xlint:xx" 
but the warning names are different ).

for more about compiling with JDT
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-ast/
http://help.eclipse.org/help30/index.jsp?topic=/org.eclipse.jdt.doc.isv/guide/jdt_api_compile.htm

regards,
ahmed

Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/

[Ahmed Saad]

hi all.. you know i think we all should work to bring the spirit of harmoney 
to the open source movement in general... for example as a web developer i 
read about a new php mvc-based framework every couple of days with really 
nothing new to introduce to the scene so if all *similiar* open source 
projects *harmonized* their efforts... i think we will be in a more 
productive/innovative open source world... nevertheless, projects with 
different philosophies about the same thing should just remain separate 
trying to compete with each othersorry for my off subject

On 5/20/05, crispyalien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hi, I just wanted to say that a free opensource VM with do a lot of
> harmonyzation in Java world. This is more or les the missing pice. There
> are some free java VMs but they will never be used in critical by the
> companys to run there applications if it won't be backed-up by a big
> (and well known for it's qality) company/fundation. I think Appache
> fundation cand be that sponsor. I also believe that Harmony should only
> be about VM+classpath. But I could also see the meaning in having a tool
> development pack. This could be done by some other project. Maybe
> Appache could take the lead here too but this is another story.
> 
> best regards,
> Valentin
> 
> Gary Affonso wrote:
> 
> >On 5/20/05 3:38 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>On May 19, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Renaud BECHADE wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Another point that is unrelated, but what about the "packaging" of
> >>>the VM?
> >>>Do we plan to release it with say Eclipse + Server (JSF + IDE +
> >>>object DB or
> >>>O/R mapping + HSQL DB)? (IMHO this is good way to legitimate it)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>No. Why would we do this?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I could see why someone (at least myself) might tend to think in this
> >direction.
> >
> >This project has been called "Harmony" and, well, there's a lot in the 
> Java
> >world that could stand to be "Harmonized". The various ORM solutions, the
> >IDE's, the webapp frameworks, etc. Hell, a good chunk of the "disharmony"
> >with Java right now is serious rift between Sun, which pushes EJB, and 
> the
> >"lightweight" folks who are seeing a shocking (and, IMO, deserved) amount 
> of
> >success with creating and using an EJB alternative (Spring, Hibernate,
> >etc.).
> >
> >I'm not saying I think this Harmony project should try to and harmonize 
> any
> >of those thing. It's got its job cut out for it to "harmonize" the 
> various
> >efforts around...
> >
> > * a JVM
> > * a compiler
> > * a class library
> >
> >...without thinking about the upper layers of the Java stack. I think the
> >scope of this effort is clear to those who are moderately "in the know".
> >
> >But it's not a big surprise (at least to me) that when moderately "out of
> >the know" people hear "Java Harmony" they might think the effort extends
> >beyond just the core components. Indeed, they'll probably assume that it
> >addresses the aspects of Java that are, to many, are the most acrimonious 
> to
> >begin with (EJB vs Lightweight or NetBeans/Swing vs Eclipse/SWT).
> >
> >If nothing else, I'd suggest this be in a FAQ somewhere so that it's 
> clear
> >that "Harmony" intends to address just a small subset of the java world, 
> not
> >even the one that gets the most "acrimony" in the press and on blogs.
> >
> >- Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
>

Re: Developing Harmony

[Ahmed Saad]

>Then, if the VM is written in Java it will be compiled to native code 
using,
>for example, gcj?
>or it will be compiled to byte code and will be interpreted by itself?
>I'm a little bit confused about this topic

same goes here

On 5/18/05, Juan Leyva Delgado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Then, if the VM is written in Java it will be compiled to native code 
> using,
> for example, gcj?
> or it will be compiled to byte code and will be interpreted by itself?
> 
> I'm a little bit confused about this topic
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Developing Harmony
> 
> 
> > Ozgur Akan wrote:
> >> JVM in Java will be the slower then Sun`s JVM. C or C++ is a better
> >> choice.
> >
> > You have to undertand that "written in Java" does *NOT* equate 
> necessarely
> > as "will be run as interpreted bytecode".
> >
> > --
> > Stefano.
> >
> >
> 
>

Re: impatient ;)

[Ahmed Saad]

>how much value is there in creating another point of entry?

it's not just for devs who will be compiling the class library in harmony. 
it's (or that's what i think) intended to be the "javac" of Hamroy 

On 5/18/05, Matt Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> just a note... it appears that Ant (and thus Maven, I
> assume) can already use the Eclipse JDT compiler when
> properly configured. If by chance one of these
> (Apache) projects is used for builds, how much value
> is there in creating another point of entry?
> 
> -Matt
> 
> 
> --- Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > go for it!
> >
> > -- dims
> >
> > On 5/16/05, Patrice Le Vexier
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > here's a task for those of you who want
> > something to do: wrap the
> > > > eclipse JDT compiler and make it look/feel like
> > javac from the
> > > > command line.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Stefano.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > If there is no objection to use this compiler, I
> > can do that.
> > >
> > > Please, let me know.
> > >
> > > patrice
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas -
> > http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
> >
> 
> __
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
>

Re: Organizing the Mailing List

[Ahmed Saad]

that would be great so people can stop worring about the legal side... and 
if anyone wants to know about the current legal situation s/he could check 
that list.

On 5/17/05, Stuart Still <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I agree. Perhaps though it might be helpful to split into a legal
> and technical list shortly?
> 
> Cheer
> Stuart
> 
> On 17 May 2005, at 16:55, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> 
> > We tend to do this naturally - we put something in the subject line
> > to distinguish. Maybe we'll come up w/ some patterns.
> >
> > One thing to consider is when we get going with things, to split
> > off an architecture list if the volume gets too much. But for now,
> > it's light enough to keep it all here. Comments?
> >
> > geir
> >
> > On May 16, 2005, at 6:48 PM, Bryce Leo wrote:
> >
> >
> >> As harmony is just getting started, there is a great deal of good
> >> suggestions, questions and offers for help. Ever since the Slashdot
> >> announcement I personally think that the number of people whom have
> >> joined and offered their services has clearly gone up and to promote
> >> organization I'm proposing a naming scheme for subject of emails. The
> >> Bulletin board style tags are just to promote reading ease.
> >>
> >>
> >> First lets look at what seem to be the larger topics of discussion.
> >>
> >> [BigCategories]
> >> JVM: The Java Virtual Machine, where to start, different available
> >> codebases and strategies.
> >>
> >> Compiler: Creating a javac like tool.
> >>
> >> Documentation: It's always easier to document as you go along and
> >> well
> >> documented code can save tons of time in tracking down bugs.
> >>
> >> Libraries: Which ones to choose or develop individually
> >>
> >> Tools: The associated java tools, applet viewer, jar, etc.
> >>
> >> Introduction: This would be used for if your'e introducing yourself,
> >> listing prior experience, etc.
> >>
> >> DevPriority: The overall discussion of which parts of harmony should
> >> be developed first.
> >>
> >> Target OS: Seems small but it doesn't belong as a part of any
> >> other so
> >> it gets its own.
> >>
> >> Licensing: Should really be a minor concern for now, once we pick up
> >> steam this issue will be logically sorted out. It's and
> >> inter-dependancy (i apologize if i used the word wrong), choosing a
> >> licence effects our code base choices and visa-versa
> >>
> >> Organization: How things should be organized.
> >> [/BigCategories]
> >>
> >> Below these would be sub-categories that would provide more insight
> >> into the larger topic.
> >>
> >> [SmallCategories]
> >> Suggestion: General suggestion(s) for a particular topic.
> >>
> >> Questions: Questions about a particular topic.
> >>
> >> DevPriority: Probably shouldn't be used yet, would be used for
> >> sub-development. i.e. What order things should be developed for the
> >> compiler.
> >>
> >> Organization: How things should be organized.
> >> [/SmallCategories]
> >>
> >>
> >> So say for example you wanted to send a brand new suggestion for the
> >> JVM the topic of the post would be "JVM--Suggestion" and if you
> >> wanted
> >> to ask a questions about a compiler it would be "Compiler--question"
> >> and so on like that.
> >>
> >> This should be friendly for both threaded and un-threaded mail
> >> clients. And under this system this mail would be
> >> "Organization--Organization" but for now that's irrelevant.
> >>
> >>
> >> I think this system would really help focus the group and allow
> >> people
> >> to easily tune in to what interests them and keep a tab on the
> >> general
> >> flow of the project, while right now things seem a bit "willy-nilly".
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >> --
> >> ~Bryce Leo
> >>
> >>
> >> --Veritas Vos Liberabis--
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> 
>

Re: Developing Harmony

[Ahmed Saad]

ok a question... hope it's not that silly anyways... if you did the JVM in 
java we would need to compile it (or part of it) to native code... wouldn't 
that be a problem when porting to other platforms? (sorry guys if it's so 
silly)

On 5/17/05, Ozgur Akan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> JVM in Java will be the slower then Sun`s JVM. C or C++ is a better 
> choice.
> 
> Ozgur Akan
> 
> Jónas Tryggvi Jóhannsson wrote:
> 
> >
> >> Question to the floor: if it had to be one of C and C++, which would
> >> you prefer?
> >
> >
> > I can´t think of a single reason why C should be preferred over C++,
> > as C can simply be viewed as a subset of C++. As Java users, all of us
> > appreciate object orientation and understand how it can be used to
> > simplify software and make it more readable. Writing C code in an
> > object oriented manner simply does not give the same level of
> > abstraction C++ can provide.
> >
> > Im however very fond of the idea of writing the JVM in Java. Im
> > beginning to look into the JikesRVM and I really like the idea,
> > especially as it is the language that everyone on this list is
> > familiar with. It would also maximize the quality of the tools that we
> > will provide, as we would be using them to develop our JVM.
> >
> > - Jónas Tryggvi
> >
> 
>

Re: Organizing the Mailing List

[Ahmed Saad]

can we push some priorities rather than running everywhere.. like

1. decide on a language to use: c, c++, java (did i hear pascal)
2 . an architecture 
3. 

According to this architecture we will divide our efforts. So we can focus 
on more specific subjects
and may be we can do more organized studies about how other open similiar 
projects did X or Y and whether we gonna for for them or build it from the 
scratch. We need a priority list and we, i hope all will, can resolve each 
items in order. i think we can get to work faster that way.

comments?

on 5/17/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> We tend to do this naturally - we put something in the subject line
> to distinguish. Maybe we'll come up w/ some patterns.
> 
> One thing to consider is when we get going with things, to split off
> an architecture list if the volume gets too much. But for now, it's
> light enough to keep it all here. Comments?
> 
> geir
> 
> On May 16, 2005, at 6:48 PM, Bryce Leo wrote:
> 
> > As harmony is just getting started, there is a great deal of good
> > suggestions, questions and offers for help. Ever since the Slashdot
> > announcement I personally think that the number of people whom have
> > joined and offered their services has clearly gone up and to promote
> > organization I'm proposing a naming scheme for subject of emails. The
> > Bulletin board style tags are just to promote reading ease.
> >
> >
> > First lets look at what seem to be the larger topics of discussion.
> >
> > [BigCategories]
> > JVM: The Java Virtual Machine, where to start, different available
> > codebases and strategies.
> >
> > Compiler: Creating a javac like tool.
> >
> > Documentation: It's always easier to document as you go along and well
> > documented code can save tons of time in tracking down bugs.
> >
> > Libraries: Which ones to choose or develop individually
> >
> > Tools: The associated java tools, applet viewer, jar, etc.
> >
> > Introduction: This would be used for if your'e introducing yourself,
> > listing prior experience, etc.
> >
> > DevPriority: The overall discussion of which parts of harmony should
> > be developed first.
> >
> > Target OS: Seems small but it doesn't belong as a part of any other so
> > it gets its own.
> >
> > Licensing: Should really be a minor concern for now, once we pick up
> > steam this issue will be logically sorted out. It's and
> > inter-dependancy (i apologize if i used the word wrong), choosing a
> > licence effects our code base choices and visa-versa
> >
> > Organization: How things should be organized.
> > [/BigCategories]
> >
> > Below these would be sub-categories that would provide more insight
> > into the larger topic.
> >
> > [SmallCategories]
> > Suggestion: General suggestion(s) for a particular topic.
> >
> > Questions: Questions about a particular topic.
> >
> > DevPriority: Probably shouldn't be used yet, would be used for
> > sub-development. i.e. What order things should be developed for the
> > compiler.
> >
> > Organization: How things should be organized.
> > [/SmallCategories]
> >
> >
> > So say for example you wanted to send a brand new suggestion for the
> > JVM the topic of the post would be "JVM--Suggestion" and if you wanted
> > to ask a questions about a compiler it would be "Compiler--question"
> > and so on like that.
> >
> > This should be friendly for both threaded and un-threaded mail
> > clients. And under this system this mail would be
> > "Organization--Organization" but for now that's irrelevant.
> >
> >
> > I think this system would really help focus the group and allow people
> > to easily tune in to what interests them and keep a tab on the general
> > flow of the project, while right now things seem a bit "willy-nilly".
> >
> > What do you think?
> > --
> > ~Bryce Leo
> >
> >
> > --Veritas Vos Liberabis--
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>

Re: Gosling on Harmony

[Ahmed Saad]

The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to Gosling, who 
says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise development 
community regarding the idea of open-source Java."

welcome to the matrix, guys ;)

On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
> 
> Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
>

Re: impatient ;)

[Ahmed Saad]

i'm working on that too.. i'm using args4j to support javac-like option 
parsing capabilites... i'm reading the tomcat Jasper source code to learn 
more about how they did that (the JDTCompiler class)... would be great if 
you wanna share ideas

-ahmed

On 5/17/05, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> go for it!
> 
> -- dims
> 
> On 5/16/05, Patrice Le Vexier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > here's a task for those of you who want something to do: wrap the
> > > eclipse JDT compiler and make it look/feel like javac from the
> > > command line.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Stefano.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > If there is no objection to use this compiler, I can do that.
> >
> > Please, let me know.
> >
> > patrice
> >
> 
> --
> Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
>

Re: Organizing the Mailing List

[Ahmed Saad]

that would be great

On 5/17/05, Bryce Leo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> As harmony is just getting started, there is a great deal of good
> suggestions, questions and offers for help. Ever since the Slashdot
> announcement I personally think that the number of people whom have
> joined and offered their services has clearly gone up and to promote
> organization I'm proposing a naming scheme for subject of emails. The
> Bulletin board style tags are just to promote reading ease.
> 
> First lets look at what seem to be the larger topics of discussion.
> 
> [BigCategories]
> JVM: The Java Virtual Machine, where to start, different available
> codebases and strategies.
> 
> Compiler: Creating a javac like tool.
> 
> Documentation: It's always easier to document as you go along and well
> documented code can save tons of time in tracking down bugs.
> 
> Libraries: Which ones to choose or develop individually
> 
> Tools: The associated java tools, applet viewer, jar, etc.
> 
> Introduction: This would be used for if your'e introducing yourself,
> listing prior experience, etc.
> 
> DevPriority: The overall discussion of which parts of harmony should
> be developed first.
> 
> Target OS: Seems small but it doesn't belong as a part of any other so
> it gets its own.
> 
> Licensing: Should really be a minor concern for now, once we pick up
> steam this issue will be logically sorted out. It's and
> inter-dependancy (i apologize if i used the word wrong), choosing a
> licence effects our code base choices and visa-versa
> 
> Organization: How things should be organized.
> [/BigCategories]
> 
> Below these would be sub-categories that would provide more insight
> into the larger topic.
> 
> [SmallCategories]
> Suggestion: General suggestion(s) for a particular topic.
> 
> Questions: Questions about a particular topic.
> 
> DevPriority: Probably shouldn't be used yet, would be used for
> sub-development. i.e. What order things should be developed for the
> compiler.
> 
> Organization: How things should be organized.
> [/SmallCategories]
> 
> So say for example you wanted to send a brand new suggestion for the
> JVM the topic of the post would be "JVM--Suggestion" and if you wanted
> to ask a questions about a compiler it would be "Compiler--question"
> and so on like that.
> 
> This should be friendly for both threaded and un-threaded mail
> clients. And under this system this mail would be
> "Organization--Organization" but for now that's irrelevant.
> 
> I think this system would really help focus the group and allow people
> to easily tune in to what interests them and keep a tab on the general
> flow of the project, while right now things seem a bit "willy-nilly".
> 
> What do you think?
> --
> ~Bryce Leo
> 
> --Veritas Vos Liberabis--
>

Re: Harmony Project Structure Attempt

[Ahmed Saad]

"In addition to the JVM and classpath, the standard JDK tools must be 
implemented for Harmony. To promote reuse and facilitate deployment, we 
should strive for a single distribution library (called Common Tools Library 
or CTL in the image below) on top of the OAL from the JVM project."

does that mean we will build the CTL from scratch and not adapting other 
open-source impelmentations to guarauntee a clean API?



On 5/16/05, Listreader account <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I have created an initial attempt at reaching a consensus regarding the
> structure of the Harmony project on
> 
> http://www.jguru.se/jguru/control/Developers/Harmony
> 
> I was convenient and lazy enough to stash all on one page for now.
> Please read through it and post your comments on the dev-harmony list.
> 
> Thanks all,
> 
> ---
> // Lennart Jörelid, Senior J2EE Architect
> // jGuru Europe AB
> // lj __AT__ jguru.se
>

Re: Java

[Ahmed Saad]

hi all... i'm a computer science student located in cairo, egypt with a 
modest experience in c/c++ (wrote some bsd-style sockets and posix stuff) 
and designing web applications with java/php i've just read about 
harmony yesterday on slashdot and i'm just itching to be invloved... and i 
totally agree that there must be an effort to put newbies, like me, on the 
track.. i'll be more backgrouding, doin' research and pushing foreward 
material as much as i can, and i hope i can catch up quickly with gurus down 
here to code more and more
 regards,
ahmed

 On 5/16/05, Patrice Le Vexier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> 
> It would be sad if the list really exponentially divide. I thing such a 
> big
> project need a lot of people, and not only VM or compiler gurus. I think 
> one
> of the big interest of this project is it can elevate the java knowledge 
> of
> the community. But for that, an effort must be made to integrate new 
> comers
> (I definitely am), by providing a good set of documentation and 
> references,
> and may be, when it is possible, eating our own food, to avoid to create a
> gap between peoples who already worked with technologies where are going 
> to
> used, and others who not.
> 
> Some ideas to try to achieve that:
> 
> -providing clear documentations on all aspects we are going to work on,
> -using a set of tool available on all main platforms (don't exclude 
> windows
> people, it a J2SE, not just a server system)
> -try to make it simple, even if the subject is very complicated,
> 
> If I think meritocracy is the best thing to make good piece of software,
> some effort must be made to try to integrate more possible motivated
> peoples. I definitely am too ;)
> 
> patrice
> 
> > -Message d'origine-
> > De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Envoyé : Monday, May 16, 2005 4:40 AM
> > À : harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Objet : Re: Java
> >
> >
> > Mark Brooks wrote:
> > >> Hey, this is an Apache project. There is no lead - we're all peers.
> > >
> > >
> > > Then we are doomed. :)
> > >
> >
> > That's absurd.
> >
> > >> But if you are looking for something to do  how can we figure
> > >> out the viability of this approach, and either park the idea as an
> > >> interesting one but not appropriate for the project, or a good one
> > >> that we'll keep going forward with?
> > >
> > >
> > > I lack the requisite experience to take the lead on this. However, I
> > > think we couldn't really make that determination until someone has 
> done
> > > some high-level specifications and determined what exactly needs to be
> > > done. That requires us to identify preliminary issues regarding the
> > > build environment. Realistically, what is our timeframe here? If we
> > > have 36 months, we might be able to achieve a lot. If somebody is
> > > looking for something in the next 12 months, the project might have to
> > > be scaled back.
> > >
> >
> > Wow... So I'm guessing you've never worked on an open source project.
> > Welcome. Take a look around, you'll find many projects are governed
> > this way and accomplish great things without traditional project
> > management per se.
> >
> >
> > > Exactly what IS Harmony? If the goal is an Apache-licensed J2SE 5.0
> > > implementation, then we have two parts (1) the VM and (2) the class
> > > library. Our requirements tool is the TCK -- but somebody still needs
> > > to reduce that to a series of requirements and specifications so we 
> can
> > > target what needs to be done and estimate how long it will take to do.
> > >
> >
> > So stop complaining and start doing it. There are no appointed leaders,
> > that is not to say there are no leaders. Good leaders take action, set
> > an example and then others choose to follow. The TCK is not our
> > requirements tool per se. Open specifications are our first and
> > foremost tools. There is a reason for this, the TCK is governed my
> > nondisclosure agreements that will only make it open to key contributors
> > most likely Apache members. However, plenty of information is out there
> > that will allow everyone qualified to contribute. how will we filter
> > the qualfied? Frankly the population of this list will exponentially
> > divide once real coding starts :-)
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > > _
> > > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from 
> McAfee?
> > > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andrew C. Oliver
> > SuperLink Software, Inc.
> >
> > Java to Excel using POI
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi
> > Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed.
> 
>