[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
"Claus Reinke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > then again, Jane Austen was happy enough writing about her > characters not being "one and twenty", so perhaps that is just a > lost art?-) > I'm quite content as long as I'm not "four twenty nineteen". -- (c) this sig last receiving data processing entity. Inspect headers for past copyright information. All rights reserved. Unauthorised copying, hiring, renting, public performance and/or broadcasting of this signature prohibited. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 20:59 +0200, Henning Thielemann wrote: . . . > Interesting to know what jokes are told about Germans. 8-] So, do English > professors save their prepositions for the end of a lecture? This seems peculiarly apropos: I lately lost a preposition. It hid, I thought, beneath my chair, And angrily I cried "Perdition! Up from out of in under there!" Correctness is my vade mecum And straggling phrases I abhor. Still, I wonder, what should he come Up from out of in under for? - Morris Bishop -- Bill Wood ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
Claus Reinke wrote: Germans have no problems with sentences which though started at the beginning when observed closely and in the light of day (none of which adds anything to the content of the sentence in which the very parenthetical remark you -dear reader- are reading at this very moment while wondering whether the writer -dear me- is ever going to reach his point -if, in fact, there is a point (of which one cannot always be entirely sure until one has stored and processed the whole construct from beginning to end and thought it over carefully at least once more because who knows, sense appears here and there, now and then, to this one and that one, and how are you, Mr. Wilson? Unmatched open parentheses. you mean as in returning from a different context than the one we decended into? we'd never do such a thing, honestly!-) then again, Jane Austen was happy enough writing about her characters not being "one and twenty", so perhaps that is just a lost art?-) Oh, I see the matching closing parentheses now. Perfect... 72MB freed by GC in 2.3ms. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
> So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated > (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and > write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the > stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. My German professor told us a story, set in WWII: Two British pilots shot down behind enemy lines, who had received very thorough training on German culture, current sports, etc., successfully blended in with the native Germans for some time until someone noticed them in a cafe writing down the sum on their bill in left-to-right order. They were summarily shot. Not that I have any idea whether this is based on truth or not, or whether Germans, in fact, write the last two digits in reverse order. Also, Claus's reply gives me a headache. Eric ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On 14 May 2008, at 2:13 PM, Claus Reinke wrote: It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German pronunciation is completely uniform from 13 to 99. http://www.verein-zwanzigeins.de/ So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. Germans have no problems with sentences which though started at the beginning when observed closely and in the light of day (none of which adds anything to the content of the sentence in which the very parenthetical remark you -dear reader- are reading at this very moment while wondering whether the writer -dear me- is ever going to reach his point -if, in fact, there is a point (of which one cannot always be entirely sure until one has stored and processed the whole construct from beginning to end and thought it over carefully at least once more because who knows, sense appears here and there, now and then, to this one and that one, and how are you, Mr. Wilson? If the latter, does this imply that Germans have a harder time with tail recursion? you mean as in returning from a different context than the one we decended into? we'd never do such a thing, honestly!-) then again, Jane Austen was happy enough writing about her characters not being "one and twenty", so perhaps that is just a lost art?-) Murthered, by the same revolutionaries who destroyed the rest of the world Jane Austen wrote about. jcc ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German pronunciation is completely uniform from 13 to 99. http://www.verein-zwanzigeins.de/ So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. Germans have no problems with sentences which though started at the beginning when observed closely and in the light of day (none of which adds anything to the content of the sentence in which the very parenthetical remark you -dear reader- are reading at this very moment while wondering whether the writer -dear me- is ever going to reach his point -if, in fact, there is a point (of which one cannot always be entirely sure until one has stored and processed the whole construct from beginning to end and thought it over carefully at least once more because who knows, sense appears here and there, now and then, to this one and that one, and how are you, Mr. Wilson? If the latter, does this imply that Germans have a harder time with tail recursion? you mean as in returning from a different context than the one we decended into? we'd never do such a thing, honestly!-) then again, Jane Austen was happy enough writing about her characters not being "one and twenty", so perhaps that is just a lost art?-) claus ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
Henning Thielemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Of course, we write down 243, realize the mistake and rewrite the > number. :-) Actually, many pupils have problems with the mixed order > of digits and give solutions like this one in examinations: >8 * 8 = 46 > because they write the digits as they speak them. That's one of the > reasons the mentioned assocation was founded for. > Funny enough you never hear stories about pupils writing 7 + 7 = 41 -- (c) this sig last receiving data processing entity. Inspect headers for past copyright information. All rights reserved. Unauthorised copying, hiring, renting, public performance and/or broadcasting of this signature prohibited. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: On 2008 May 14, at 14:34, Dan Weston wrote: So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. If the latter, does this imply that Germans have a harder time with tail recursion? Stacking, surely: recall the joke about the German professor who saved all his verbs for the end of the lecture. :) Interesting to know what jokes are told about Germans. 8-] So, do English professors save their prepositions for the end of a lecture? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On Wed, 14 May 2008, Dan Weston wrote: Henning Thielemann wrote: http://www.verein-zwanzigeins.de/ So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. Of course, we write down 243, realize the mistake and rewrite the number. :-) Actually, many pupils have problems with the mixed order of digits and give solutions like this one in examinations: 8 * 8 = 46 because they write the digits as they speak them. That's one of the reasons the mentioned assocation was founded for. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On 2008 May 14, at 14:34, Dan Weston wrote: So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. If the latter, does this imply that Germans have a harder time with tail recursion? Stacking, surely: recall the joke about the German professor who saved all his verbs for the end of the lecture. :) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [EMAIL PROTECTED] system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [EMAIL PROTECTED] electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
Henning Thielemann wrote: On Tue, 13 May 2008, Achim Schneider wrote: Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German pronunciation is completely uniform from 13 to 99. http://www.verein-zwanzigeins.de/ So I've always wondered, if you are writing down a number being dictated (slowly) by someone else, like 234, do you write the 2, then leave space and write the 4, then go back and fill in with 3? Or do you push the 4 onto the stack until the 3 arrives, and write 34 at once. If the latter, does this imply that Germans have a harder time with tail recursion? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
Henning Thielemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, 13 May 2008, Achim Schneider wrote: > > > Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like > >> the usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. > >> > > So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German > > pronunciation is completely uniform from 13 to 99. > > http://www.verein-zwanzigeins.de/ > Dammit! Don't affirm the stereotype that any group of like-minded Germans forms an association to affirm importance and ultimately get drowned by the "well I don't care at all" mentality of the rest. -- (c) this sig last receiving data processing entity. Inspect headers for past copyright information. All rights reserved. Unauthorised copying, hiring, renting, public performance and/or broadcasting of this signature prohibited. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On Tue, 13 May 2008, Achim Schneider wrote: Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German pronunciation is completely uniform from 13 to 99. http://www.verein-zwanzigeins.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On 2008-05-13, Andrew Coppin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Aaron Denney wrote: >> On 2008-05-12, Andrew Coppin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> (Stupid little-endian nonsense... mutter mutter...) >>> >> >> I used to be a big-endian advocate, on the principle that it doesn't >> really matter, and it was standard network byte order. Now I'm >> convinced that little endian is the way to go, as bit number n should >> have value 2^n, byte number n should have value 256^n, and so forth. >> >> Yes, in human to human communication there is value in having the most >> significant bit first. Not really true for computer-to-computer >> communication. >> > > It just annoys me that the number 0x12345678 has to be transmuted into > 0x78563412 just because Intel says so. Why make everything so complicated? > > [Oh GOD I hope I didn't just start a Holy War...] On the other hand I appreciate that the consecutive memory locations containing [1][0][0][0] are the number 1, no matter whether you're reading a byte, a short, or an int. -- Aaron Denney -><- ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On Tue 2008-05-13 22:14, Achim Schneider wrote: > Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the > > usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. > > > So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German pronunciation > is completely uniform from 13 to 99. I would argue that 100n+11 to 100n+19 are special cases in both German and English, but only 100n+11 to 100n+15 in Spanish. In any case, the order of the digits is dependent on where the decimal falls. If the ordering is pure little endian (not x86 halfway) or big endian, the bit order is not dependent on the width of the field. Converting breaks this nice property. Convention is to write numbers in big endian and it would be nice if there were fewer exceptions. Yet another argument for ISO 8601 dates. A somewhat dramatic change would be to put the exponent first in scientific notation. Alas, this seems unlikely to happen. Jed pgplDGBP5qgGn.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the > usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. > So you claim that you pronounce 14 tenty-four? In German pronunciation is completely uniform from 13 to 99. -- (c) this sig last receiving data processing entity. Inspect headers for past copyright information. All rights reserved. Unauthorised copying, hiring, renting, public performance and/or broadcasting of this signature prohibited. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
Am Dienstag, 13. Mai 2008 21:28 schrieb Aaron Denney: > On 2008-05-13, Ketil Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> This, of course, is because `od -x' regards the input as 16-bit > >> integers. We can get saner output if we regard it is 8-bit integers. > > > > Yes, of course. The point was that for big-endian, the word size > > won't matter. Little-endian words will be reversed with respect to > > the normal (left-to-right, most significant first) way we print > > numbers. > > Right. Because we print numbers backwards. Try hebrew or arab then, they have the least significant digit first in reading order :) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On 2008-05-13, Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Now I'm convinced that little endian is the way to go, as bit number n >> > should have value 2^n, byte number n should have value 256^n, and so forth. > > It's not that simple with bits. They lack consistency just like the > usual US date format and the way Germans read numbers. Yes. I'm saying what should be, not what is. I'm saying one of those ways is wrong, wrong, wrong. It usually doesn't matter in practice, because writes to e.g. RAM effectively happen at byte-level or higher, making the internal labels fairly arbitrary. It matters and can cause confusion in actual serial protocols, of course, which have been making a resurgence in recent years, though again, the bit order in these are well understood. Just possibly wrong. -- Aaron Denney -><- ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Endianess
On 2008-05-13, Ketil Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jed Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> This, of course, is because `od -x' regards the input as 16-bit integers. We >> can get saner output if we regard it is 8-bit integers. > > Yes, of course. The point was that for big-endian, the word size > won't matter. Little-endian words will be reversed with respect to > the normal (left-to-right, most significant first) way we print > numbers. Right. Because we print numbers backwards. -- Aaron Denney -><- ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
