Re: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
Anyway, that's all for the sake of chatting. Now we know that we'll be able to use C++ in HL2. Still, I think it would be great if they added a good script language as a second option. /me wonders how hard it would be to port the source to Java... -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
/me wonders how hard it would be to port the source to Java... /me wonders how hard it would be to port the source to ASM... ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
Anyway, I'm sorry if that sounded arrogant. I should have added: most people I talked with about that. :) I've met lots of persons who think that script languages are toy languages, which is not justified by the current state of the art (http://home.pacbell.net/ouster/scripting.html). He states initially and in closing that scripting languages and system programming languages (C, C++, ...Java) do and should complement each other. The remainder of the article is largely a head-to-head comparison of Tcl and C/C++ solely in the areas where Tcl's strengths come through. Tcl's GUI code is compared directly with the Win32 API and MFC, and the 25-fold expansion in code blamed directly on the strong typing in C++ (section 3). It is written by the creator of Tcl, whose reputation relies in part upon the success of Tcl. It is hosted on his personal website. To be entirely fair, the author makes some good points. It's unfortunate that he then undermines these by wildly exaggerating his claims by so blatantly picking and choosing his statistics. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
/me wonders how hard it would be to port the source to Java... /me wonders how hard it would be to port the source to ASM... Aren't there tools that'll do that automatically? From what I've heard the compiled ASM runs as fast as the original C++, even. Exactly as fast. :p -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
I am guessing this hard:
$ find . -type f -name '*.cpp' -exec gcc `grep CFLAGS Makefile | sed
's/CFLAGS *= *//'` -S '{}' ';'
I meant manually, line for line.
-Phil
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
It doesn't matter anymore. 5 years ago, maybe. But there's no real difference anymore. There are some exceptions however, for example swapping rgb to bgr, doing inline asm is a *little* quicker. omega Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlcoders- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: June 1, 2003 10:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?) Aren't there tools that'll do that automatically? From what I've heard the compiled ASM runs as fast as the original C++, even. ASM runs much faster than C++ because it's a lower-level programming language. Some could argue that it's the fastest understandable (if) programming language. -Phil ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:14:05 +1200 Phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aren't there tools that'll do that automatically? From what I've heard the compiled ASM runs as fast as the original C++, even. ASM runs much faster than C++ because it's a lower-level programming language. Some could argue that it's the fastest understandable (if) programming language. ...just joking. -_- I meant the ASM that a compiler would generate from the C++, as with the method in Jonah's post. Which would naturally run exactly as fast as the C++ it was generated from, because it'd have been generated by the same routines as used in compilation. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Paolo, There is absolutely no way for you to backup this assertion. You certainly have not conducted any sort of survey of most people to determine what their views are or what influenced them. ...and Michael, there's no way for you to back up the assertion that Paolo can't back up his assertion. Kind of a pointless argument, don't you think? :) Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
The discussion has ended, C++ will be the official language for Half-Life 2's SDK. Erik Johnson replied to question at hand. Please, no more flame-worthy/pointless scripting VS C++ discussions. Sniper - Original Message - From: botman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? Paolo, There is absolutely no way for you to backup this assertion. You certainly have not conducted any sort of survey of most people to determine what their views are or what influenced them. ...and Michael, there's no way for you to back up the assertion that Paolo can't back up his assertion. Kind of a pointless argument, don't you think? :) Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
You certainly have not conducted any sort of survey of most people to determine what their views are or what influenced them. ...and Michael, there's no way for you to back up the assertion that Paolo can't back up his assertion. Kind of a pointless argument, don't you think? :) Anyway, I'm sorry if that sounded arrogant. I should have added: most people I talked with about that. :) I've met lots of persons who think that script languages are toy languages, which is not justified by the current state of the art (http://home.pacbell.net/ouster/scripting.html). The difference between script languages and compiled languages has nothing to do with power, expressiveness, or availability of libraries. Just check Python's libraries or expressive power. Performance is a moot point too. In a game like HL, the bottlenecks usually reside in the graphical engine and the network communications. I've rarely heard of a mod where performance local to the game logics actually made a difference. Unless you're Jeffrey himself, of course - but we only get a handful of modders who do such sophisticated stuff. :) I'm not saying that a script language wouldn't make any difference. For example, you can argue wether strong type checking is good or not - and we'd probably agree that it can be either, depending on the particular project you're undertaking. I suspect that the whole UnrealScript versus C++ debate has more to do with the language being proprietary or standard then with it being precompiled or script. Anyway, that's all for the sake of chatting. Now we know that we'll be able to use C++ in HL2. Still, I think it would be great if they added a good script language as a second option. --- Paolo Nusco Perrotta Holy Wars Team http://www.planethalflife.com/holywars ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: Script languages (was Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?)
Paolo,
My post may have seemed unnecessarily harsh.
For that, I apologize.
No disrespect was intended.
Clearly, I mistook your intent.
At 11:31 AM 5/31/2003 +0200, you wrote:
You certainly have not conducted any sort of survey of most
people to determine what their views are or what influenced them.
...and Michael, there's no way for you to back up the assertion that Paolo
can't back up his assertion. Kind of a pointless argument, don't you
think? :)
Anyway, I'm sorry if that sounded arrogant. I should have added: most
people I talked with about that. :) I've met lots of persons who think that
script languages are toy languages, which is not justified by the current
state of the art (http://home.pacbell.net/ouster/scripting.html).
{OLD}Sneaky_Bastard!
Michael A. Hobson
icq:#2186709
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
that gives me a) relief, no more silly discussion. b) confusion, how will they makej it easier for modders, documentation, perhaps? : c) hope, valve ppl still read our mumblings : -- MoD, Always @ your service. - Original Message - From: Erik Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. Erik Johnson -Original Message- From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Just a quick thought/question. Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer article said: While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow rather than the nuts and bolts of programming. This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) Hopefully this is not the case, of course. A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been confirmed. Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? Sniper -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
A bit of an update on this. GamingNEXT had an interview with Gabe Newell... This is what he had to say about the modability of the engine: GamingNEXT - Finally, how user friendly is this engine and will modders be able to create unique environments and maps that made the first Half-Life last so long? Gabe Newell - We learned a lot through our experiences with TFC, Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, and so on. This engine is much more MOD'able (if that's a word) than Half-Life 1 was, and the tool set has been improved a lot. We'll also be releasing a bunch of material to help MOD teams get their existing work up and running on the new engine as a starting point. His last line suggests that you can port existing work for HL MODs to HL2. If this is the case, it's almost certain there will be C/C++ modding. Please note that this does NOT exclude a scripting language. To read the full interview, go to http://www.gamingnext.com/articles/index.asp?id=17 Jeroen ShadowLord Bogers - Original Message - From: Sniper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 04:56 Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Just a quick thought/question. Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer article said: While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow rather than the nuts and bolts of programming. This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) Hopefully this is not the case, of course. A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been confirmed. Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? Sniper -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Lovely :D - Original Message - From: Erik Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. Erik Johnson -Original Message- From: Sniper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Just a quick thought/question. Half-Life 2 and it's modifications will be done with C/C++, as it was in Half-Life, correct? There's a handful of discussions blooming up on various Half-Life 2 forums talking about this. Scripting languages can be very limiting... so it's a bit scary what Gabe Newell's quote from a PC Gamer article said: While the old system required its fair share of technical know-how, amateur modders are now promised the chance to focus on content and gameplay flow rather than the nuts and bolts of programming. This could imply a scripting language, don't you agree? (Emphasis on could) Hopefully this is not the case, of course. A scripting language might be neat for people new to creating modifications, but it'd be nice to have C/C++ in addition. I don't think Valve would step away from the power C/C++ offers to modders, but nothing has really been confirmed. Can anyone from Valve confirm if C/C++ will still be used for Half-Life 2? Sniper -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm?
Yes, it did clear some questions up. I'm glad C++ is still being used. I never thought it would be any other way, but you never know. Well, I guess now you know. Jonathan Day www.trepid.net - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:30 AM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] Half-Life 2: Programming, Hmm? Erik Johnson wrote: The Source SDK will be similar to the existing Half-Life SDK in that it will be C++ based, not a using a proprietary scripting language. Erik Johnson Thank you Erik for replying! I'm sure it meant a lot to quite a few on this list. HoundDawg http://www.unitedadmins.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
