Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Steven Hartland]

- Original Message - 
From: "Fletcher Dunn" 

To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" 
; 
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:34 AM
Subject: [hlds] Forum vs. email list



>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when

people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
archives, or spends hours researching.


I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about
the format of this list.

I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
most server admins prefer:

1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements),
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite
preference.

A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions


Only if the search is good, most forums search fail to find answers as
their search methods are:
1. poor
2. slow


2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email
distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.)


It is easier to follow if your new to the conversation, but if your following
the a topic its actually slower, as you need to constantly load lots of old
content and scroll past it.

3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
something, rather than making a new post.


This can actually be a down side as it means that its impossible for people to
know that you've changed something.


4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.


Just ban users who abuse, tbh forums attract this behavour much more than
a mailing list.


5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.


Not really, when your looking for new posts it will still contantly pop
up, which is not the case in a good mailing list email client.


Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.


forums don't work for me as they are too much overhead, I don't have time
to constantly check a forum, where as I do get chance to skim through
the emails from a mailing list and pick out those topics where are
important to me. Even with an email feed a forum has some notable
disadvantages:-
1. Its more time consuming to reply, so you would need to add email reply
submission.
2. It attracts more spam and useless comments, email lists are older and
keep the usual forum trolls out. You get a much higher noise to useful
content ratio on forums.
3. Without push I can only read your news in that location, as a GSP with
30+ similar lists across the industry we need it to be accessible in
one place which an email list provides.

If the list where to migrate to a forum, I would be highly unlikely to
use it which would mean missing out on important announcements and
good content, which would be shame; so my vote would be to keep it
how it is which works well for what we use it for.

   Regards
   Steve


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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Jesse Molina]

Except that L4D announcements are non-existent, and non-required updates 
don't get announced, and sometimes updates are just flat-out not 
announced, and when they are announced, sometimes there are "hidden" 
changes that Valve does not put in the changelog...




Kigen wrote:

I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)


--
# Jesse Molina
# Mail = je...@opendreams.net
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Ryan Stecker]

I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent
method of searching, and new topics keep showing up on the list for things
that have been mentioned or asked about before.

However, I'd still like hlds_announce. I _love_ push notifications for
critical updates to tf2, keeps me informed on when I need to get off my butt
and update my servers.

But for discussion about bugs, complaints, feature requests, etc, I think a
forum would be best.

So in summary, a forum and hlds_announce would be the best combination in my
opinion.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:15 PM, AJ Palkovic  wrote:

> I'd love a forum that sent an email when a new thread was started by
> anybody.  It wouldn't send an email for each reply, unless, I manually
> subscribed to that thread.  That way I can get the announcements, but
> without all the spam unless a thread seems interesting to me.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Nicholas Hastings  >wrote:
>
> > I would say that they're far worse than facepunch (and I'm no facepunch
> > fan), but I could definitely get on board with Google Groups.
> >
> >
> > On 10/24/2011 9:11 PM, msleeper wrote:
> >
> >> I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
> >> facepunch, and I hope you realize it.
> >>
> >
> >
> > __**_
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> > please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[AJ Palkovic]

I'd love a forum that sent an email when a new thread was started by
anybody.  It wouldn't send an email for each reply, unless, I manually
subscribed to that thread.  That way I can get the announcements, but
without all the spam unless a thread seems interesting to me.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:12 PM, Nicholas Hastings wrote:

> I would say that they're far worse than facepunch (and I'm no facepunch
> fan), but I could definitely get on board with Google Groups.
>
>
> On 10/24/2011 9:11 PM, msleeper wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
>> facepunch, and I hope you realize it.
>>
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Nicholas Hastings]

I would say that they're far worse than facepunch (and I'm no facepunch 
fan), but I could definitely get on board with Google Groups.


On 10/24/2011 9:11 PM, msleeper wrote:

I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
facepunch, and I hope you realize it.



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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[msleeper]

If there MUST be a change then something like Google groups would be
alright. I don't know if the "problem" is that you guys (Valve) feel
that the list is un-moderateable, but I also doubt that because then
you'd have to pay someone to moderate it.

Moving the function of the mailing list to the SPUF forums is
basically the worst idea ever. Maybe 1% of people from here would
start using the forum regularly, but the sheer bottom-feeding
stupidity of SPUF would keep most of the real contributors away.
Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
facepunch, and I hope you realize it.

As DarthNinja said, the fundamental issue is that people aren't
reading or attempting to comprehend, and immediately jump into
unfounded and unrealistic bitching. But no format change is ever going
to fix that problem.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Evan  wrote:
> This is sorta a section on SPUF for tf2 servers. But I don't think it is at
> the same level as this list.  Google wave tried to do that whole mailing
> list vs forum threads thing with a happy medium ... it didn't really work
> out.
> I prefer the mailing list as I check it more often than I would a forum
> (even if the forum mailed me with updates)  though I do admit that the
> replies with the whole thread it in is annoying.  Good thing Gmail hides
> quoted text.
> On Oct 24, 2011 8:56 PM, "Kigen"  wrote:
>
>> Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>>
>> But some of the discussions taking place are important.
>>
>> Forums would provide a better way of keeping up with stuff without
>> junking up my inbox with random troubleshoot, "CS:S is dead", etc
>> messages.
>>
>> Plus, it would better facilitate moderation.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, msleeper 
>> wrote:
>> > The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
>> > people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
>> > questions.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
>> >  wrote:
>> >> I don't mind using a forum.
>> >>
>> >> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
>> >> and leaking emails to spammers.
>> >>
>> >> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
>> >>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom,
>> Dick
>> >>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get
>> nonsense
>> >>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on
>> and/or
>> >>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
>> >>>
>> >>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined
>> better
>> >>> with whatever means required.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -Original Message-
>> >>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> >>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
>> >>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
>> >>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>> >>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> >>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
>> >>>
>> >>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn <
>> fletch...@valvesoftware.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>> >>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>> >>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>> >>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about
>> the
>> >>> format of this list.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>> >>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true
>> today?)
>> >>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding
>> that
>> >>> most server admins prefer:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Evan]

This is sorta a section on SPUF for tf2 servers. But I don't think it is at
the same level as this list.  Google wave tried to do that whole mailing
list vs forum threads thing with a happy medium ... it didn't really work
out.
I prefer the mailing list as I check it more often than I would a forum
(even if the forum mailed me with updates)  though I do admit that the
replies with the whole thread it in is annoying.  Good thing Gmail hides
quoted text.
On Oct 24, 2011 8:56 PM, "Kigen"  wrote:

> Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>
> But some of the discussions taking place are important.
>
> Forums would provide a better way of keeping up with stuff without
> junking up my inbox with random troubleshoot, "CS:S is dead", etc
> messages.
>
> Plus, it would better facilitate moderation.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, msleeper 
> wrote:
> > The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
> > people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
> > questions.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >> I don't mind using a forum.
> >>
> >> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
> >> and leaking emails to spammers.
> >>
> >> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
> >>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom,
> Dick
> >>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get
> nonsense
> >>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on
> and/or
> >>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
> >>>
> >>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined
> better
> >>> with whatever means required.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-----
> >>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> >>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
> >>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
> >>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> >>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> >>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn <
> fletch...@valvesoftware.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about
> the
> >>> format of this list.
> >>>>
> >>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
> >>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true
> today?)
> >>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding
> that
> >>> most server admins prefer:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> >>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> >>>>
> >>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
> >>> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many
> people
> >>> have the opposite preference.
> >>>>
> >>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> >>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> >>>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
> >>>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
> >>>> clients and put everywhere.)
> >>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to
> clarify
> >>> something, rather than making a new post.
> >>>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude,
> inappropriate,
> >>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> >>>> 5.) Easier

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[DarthNinja]

I like the list, however I think people need to take the time to read,
comprehend, and most importantly make sure their topic is relevant to server
administration before clicking Send.

In the very first email thread about registering servers for gift drops, it
was clear to me that while registering the server is required, none of the
quickplay gudelines are related.  If the several dozen people replying to
that email had read the whole thing, we won't have *this* discussion right
now.

I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data.
People have to visit to check up on topics.
People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum environment.


On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:55 PM, Kigen  wrote:

> Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>
> But some of the discussions taking place are important.
>
> Forums would provide a better way of keeping up with stuff without
> junking up my inbox with random troubleshoot, "CS:S is dead", etc
> messages.
>
> Plus, it would better facilitate moderation.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, msleeper 
> wrote:
> > The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
> > people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
> > questions.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >> I don't mind using a forum.
> >>
> >> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
> >> and leaking emails to spammers.
> >>
> >> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
> >>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom,
> Dick
> >>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get
> nonsense
> >>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on
> and/or
> >>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
> >>>
> >>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined
> better
> >>> with whatever means required.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> >>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
> >>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
> >>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> >>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> >>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn <
> fletch...@valvesoftware.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about
> the
> >>> format of this list.
> >>>>
> >>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
> >>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true
> today?)
> >>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding
> that
> >>> most server admins prefer:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> >>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> >>>>
> >>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
> >>> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many
> people
> >>> have the opposite preference.
> >>>>
> >>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> >>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> >>>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
> >>>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
> >>>> clients and put everywhere.)
> >>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to
> clarify
> >>> something, rather t

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[anna rack]

What about using something like Tapatalk for your phones?

Kind Regards

annarack

From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen 
[theki...@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 October 2011 01:55
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.

But some of the discussions taking place are important.

Forums would provide a better way of keeping up with stuff without
junking up my inbox with random troubleshoot, "CS:S is dead", etc
messages.

Plus, it would better facilitate moderation.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, msleeper  wrote:
> The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
> people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
> questions.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>> I don't mind using a forum.
>>
>> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
>> and leaking emails to spammers.
>>
>> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
>>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom, Dick
>>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get nonsense
>>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on and/or
>>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
>>>
>>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined better
>>> with whatever means required.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
>>>
>>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn 
>>> wrote:
>>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
>>> format of this list.
>>>>
>>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
>>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
>>> most server admins prefer:
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>>>
>>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
>>> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people
>>> have the opposite preference.
>>>>
>>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>>>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
>>>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
>>>> clients and put everywhere.)
>>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
>>> something, rather than making a new post.
>>>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
>>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
>>>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>>>>
>>>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
>>> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
>>> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
>>> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>>>>
>>>> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
>>> the information on this list.
>>>>
>>>> Please chime in.
>&

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[byteframe]

I vote my space-bucks for integration with google groups or something, so we
get various ways to grok the tomfoolery, rss being my favorite.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:55 PM, Kigen  wrote:

> Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>
> But some of the discussions taking place are important.
>
> Forums would provide a better way of keeping up with stuff without
> junking up my inbox with random troubleshoot, "CS:S is dead", etc
> messages.
>
> Plus, it would better facilitate moderation.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, msleeper 
> wrote:
> > The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
> > people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
> > questions.
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >> I don't mind using a forum.
> >>
> >> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
> >> and leaking emails to spammers.
> >>
> >> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
> >>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom,
> Dick
> >>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get
> nonsense
> >>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on
> and/or
> >>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
> >>>
> >>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined
> better
> >>> with whatever means required.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> >>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
> >>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
> >>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> >>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> >>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn <
> fletch...@valvesoftware.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about
> the
> >>> format of this list.
> >>>>
> >>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
> >>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true
> today?)
> >>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding
> that
> >>> most server admins prefer:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> >>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> >>>>
> >>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
> >>> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many
> people
> >>> have the opposite preference.
> >>>>
> >>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> >>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> >>>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
> >>>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
> >>>> clients and put everywhere.)
> >>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to
> clarify
> >>> something, rather than making a new post.
> >>>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude,
> inappropriate,
> >>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> >>>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
> >>>>
> >>>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would
> satisfy
> >>> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm
> curious
> >>

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Kigen]

Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.

But some of the discussions taking place are important.

Forums would provide a better way of keeping up with stuff without
junking up my inbox with random troubleshoot, "CS:S is dead", etc
messages.

Plus, it would better facilitate moderation.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:53 PM, msleeper  wrote:
> The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
> people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
> questions.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>> I don't mind using a forum.
>>
>> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
>> and leaking emails to spammers.
>>
>> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
>>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom, Dick
>>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get nonsense
>>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on and/or
>>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
>>>
>>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined better
>>> with whatever means required.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
>>>
>>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn 
>>> wrote:
>>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
>>> format of this list.
>>>>
>>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
>>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
>>> most server admins prefer:
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>>>
>>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
>>> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people
>>> have the opposite preference.
>>>>
>>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>>>
>>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>>>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
>>>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
>>>> clients and put everywhere.)
>>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
>>> something, rather than making a new post.
>>>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
>>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
>>>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>>>>
>>>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
>>> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
>>> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
>>> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>>>>
>>>> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
>>> the information on this list.
>>>>
>>>> Please chime in.
>>>>
>>>> Your humble servant,
>>>> - Fletch
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>>
>>>
>>> 

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[msleeper]

The only advantage I can see to using a forum, is that I can tell
people to use the search function when they ask dumb or common
questions.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, bottige...@gmail.com
 wrote:
> I don't mind using a forum.
>
> There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
> and leaking emails to spammers.
>
> http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
>> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom, Dick
>> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get nonsense
>> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on and/or
>> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
>>
>> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined better
>> with whatever means required.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
>>
>> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn 
>> wrote:
>>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>>>
>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
>> format of this list.
>>>
>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
>> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
>> most server admins prefer:
>>>
>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>>
>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
>> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people
>> have the opposite preference.
>>>
>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>>
>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
>>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
>>> clients and put everywhere.)
>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
>> something, rather than making a new post.
>>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
>>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>>>
>>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
>> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
>> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
>> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>>>
>>> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
>> the information on this list.
>>>
>>> Please chime in.
>>>
>>> Your humble servant,
>>> - Fletch
>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
>> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>

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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[bottige...@gmail.com]

I don't mind using a forum.

There is a website called i3d.net that is scraping these discussions
and leaking emails to spammers.

http://forum.i3d.net/hlds-valve-linux-newsletter/

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Frank  wrote:
> I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom, Dick
> and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get nonsense
> replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on and/or
> refuse to search around to get the answers they need.
>
> The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined better
> with whatever means required.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list
>
> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn 
> wrote:
>>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>>
>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
> format of this list.
>>
>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
> most server admins prefer:
>>
>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>
>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people
> have the opposite preference.
>>
>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>
>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly,
>> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail
>> clients and put everywhere.)
>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
> something, rather than making a new post.
>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>>
>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>>
>> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
> the information on this list.
>>
>> Please chime in.
>>
>> Your humble servant,
>> - Fletch
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>

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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Frank]

I agree...but when the link to sign-up is spread around to every Tom, Dick
and Harry with the ease of joining is the way it is, you will get nonsense
replies and confusion to those that don't understand what is going on and/or
refuse to search around to get the answers they need.

The criteria to enter/join the list and reply needs to be defined better
with whatever means required.


-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kigen
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:36 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Cc: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn 
wrote:
>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when 
>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone 
>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the 
>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
format of this list.
>
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
most server admins prefer:
>
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people
have the opposite preference.
>
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any 
> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, 
> with all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail 
> clients and put everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
the information on this list.
>
> Please chime in.
>
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>

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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[brendan halley]

Same, their are already support communitys for srcds so another is not
really needed.
On Oct 25, 2011 11:36 AM, "Kigen"  wrote:

> I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn
>  wrote:
> >>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >>archives, or spends hours researching.
> >
> > I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
> format of this list.
> >
> > I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
> forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?)
> the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
> most server admins prefer:
> >
> > 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> > 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> >
> > #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people
> have the opposite preference.
> >
> > A forum has several compelling advantages:
> >
> > 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> > 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all
> the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
> everywhere.)
> > 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
> something, rather than making a new post.
> > 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> > 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
> >
> > Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
> >
> > It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
> the information on this list.
> >
> > Please chime in.
> >
> > Your humble servant,
> > - Fletch
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] Forum vs. email list

[Kigen]

I would be happy with just hlds_announce list. :)

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn
 wrote:
>>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>archives, or spends hours researching.
>
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the 
> format of this list.
>
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum 
> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the 
> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most 
> server admins prefer:
>
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), 
> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite 
> preference.
>
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email 
> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 
> 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put 
> everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
> something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what 
> everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what 
> everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format 
> (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the 
> information on this list.
>
> Please chime in.
>
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>

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