Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[dan]

On 19/01/2013 18:04, Henry Goffin wrote:

I don't work on CS:S or TF2 anymore but they still build out of the same source 
code. If it hasn't shipped in a while you can probably chalk it up to the 
all-team focus on shipping MvM and the winter holiday break. Someone will bring 
it up to speed sooner or later; we will have to update it when we move all our 
Orange Box games to the new content delivery / patching system.


Did Michael Abrash and Jeri Ellsworth figure out time travel or something?

Sounds exciting. Question is, do you have to wear special glasses for it 
to work?


You guys say hi to 2011 for me :)

--
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Henry Goffin]

I don't work on CS:S or TF2 anymore but they still build out of the same source 
code. If it hasn't shipped in a while you can probably chalk it up to the 
all-team focus on shipping MvM and the winter holiday break. Someone will bring 
it up to speed sooner or later; we will have to update it when we move all our 
Orange Box games to the new content delivery / patching system.




On Jan 18, 2013, at 7:06 PM, "Kyle Sanderson" 
mailto:kyle.l...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Well, it's happened. CS:S forked internally, and now requires extra effort to 
update. As a result of this, CS:S hasn't been updated in quite sometime. I 
would have liked to have never seen this coming, to have been wrong. This is 
unfortunately not the case.

This was pretty malicious, and while my disappointment carries no weight, I am.
Kyle Sanderson.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Henry Goffin 
mailto:hen...@valvesoftware.com>> wrote:
I understand the concern, but it's based on an incorrect assumption. Yes, CS:S 
now stores its own binaries in a different folder. However, it has not actually 
branched away from the Source 2009 engine, and it still compiles from the same 
source code. We have simply gained the option of updating the binaries 
independently, so that for example, if an engine change is required for a TF 
feature but ends up causing a bug in CS:S, we can still deploy TF2 without 
updating CS:S. Updates will continue to come for both games, and the engine 
will be roughly in sync between the two, except for periods of instability.

For example, given the problems with the very latest Team Fortress update, I 
would assume that CS:S admins are quite happy to not be impacted. We will still 
be updating CS:S with all the Source 2009 engine fixes, just not at the exact 
same time.



From: 
hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com]
 On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:13 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated Win32 
server mailing list
Subject: [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

So, as some of you may have noticed... The last, and apparently final shared 
Engine/Game update (Manniversary... don't even get me started) moved 
Counter-Strike Source off of Source 2009 and into it's own engine branch. This 
was a deliberate change.

What does this mean for the end user? No more shared binaries between HL2DM, 
DOD:S, and TF2. If you use MM:S, SM (including extensions), ES, or any sort of 
VSP, the author will now have to compile a binary built against the CSS "SDK" 
instead of Source 2009. This is needlessly increasing work for plugin authors. 
Another issue with this is after the 12th of November, 2007 until the 23rd of 
June, 2010. Fixes were being backported days, weeks, or even months after 
they're more then public knowledge and are exploited. A decent example of this 
is sv_soundscape_printdebuginfo, after 5 months it was back ported to Episode 
1... That was really gross then, who would want it to happen again?

Just to reiterate how serious this is. On June 25th of 2010, Valve fixed the 
.dll loading exploit on Source 2009 (Which included CSS, thank god). To this 
date (I just remembered this existed from looking at old patch notes for OB, 
there's probably a number of exploits that were never fixed), the exploit still 
functions perfectly on L4D, L4D2 (requires -insecure on the client), and of 
course the older engines. The exploit allows for servers to run arbitrary code 
on clients. This can include anything from infecting them via the built in 
lobby system (they'd have to join a server, if it's a versus match even 
better). From there, the .dll could do something as simple as inviting friends 
to join them to play a match, then start downloading and executing code on the 
client whenever it wants. If CS:S wasn't part of the Source 2009 pact, I highly 
doubt it would have received this fix (HL2DM sure didn't have it for three 
months until it was ported). Everyone knows how bad GarrysMod 9 had gotten when 
GMod 10 came out, this can be L4D today and we would be none the wiser.

What do we gain from this change? Slightly faster download speeds for HL2DM, 
DODS, and TF2 as CSS is no longer part of the update package (Mind you it's not 
like CSS was not the game getting the constant material/model updates...). 
Sure, this is nice. However, killing Counter-Strike Source before CS:GO comes 
out really can't be the goal here, right?

VoiceHook is already broken because of the last required update, and needs to 
be built against the old SDK for server admins to be able to use it. Everything 
other plugin will follow as the Source 2009 engine continues to be updated.

Hate me if you want for saying this, I haven't told a lie though.
Kyle.
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Kyle Sanderson]

Well, it's happened. CS:S forked internally, and now requires extra effort
to update. As a result of this, CS:S hasn't been updated in quite sometime.
I would have liked to have never seen this coming, to have been wrong. This
is unfortunately not the case.

This was pretty malicious, and while my disappointment carries no weight, I
am.
Kyle Sanderson.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Henry Goffin wrote:

> I understand the concern, but it's based on an incorrect assumption. Yes,
> CS:S now stores its own binaries in a different folder. However, it has not
> actually branched away from the Source 2009 engine, and it still compiles
> from the same source code. We have simply gained the option of updating the
> binaries independently, so that for example, if an engine change is
> required for a TF feature but ends up causing a bug in CS:S, we can still
> deploy TF2 without updating CS:S. Updates will continue to come for both
> games, and the engine will be roughly in sync between the two, except for
> periods of instability.
>
> For example, given the problems with the very latest Team Fortress update,
> I would assume that CS:S admins are quite happy to not be impacted. We will
> still be updating CS:S with all the Source 2009 engine fixes, just not at
> the exact same time.
>
>
>
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:13 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated
> Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.
>
> So, as some of you may have noticed... The last, and apparently final
> shared Engine/Game update (Manniversary... don't even get me started) moved
> Counter-Strike Source off of Source 2009 and into it's own engine branch.
> This was a deliberate change.
>
> What does this mean for the end user? No more shared binaries between
> HL2DM, DOD:S, and TF2. If you use MM:S, SM (including extensions), ES, or
> any sort of VSP, the author will now have to compile a binary built against
> the CSS "SDK" instead of Source 2009. This is needlessly increasing work
> for plugin authors. Another issue with this is after the 12th of November,
> 2007 until the 23rd of June, 2010. Fixes were being backported days, weeks,
> or even months after they're more then public knowledge and are exploited.
> A decent example of this is sv_soundscape_printdebuginfo, after 5 months it
> was back ported to Episode 1... That was really gross then, who would want
> it to happen again?
>
> Just to reiterate how serious this is. On June 25th of 2010, Valve fixed
> the .dll loading exploit on Source 2009 (Which included CSS, thank god). To
> this date (I just remembered this existed from looking at old patch notes
> for OB, there's probably a number of exploits that were never fixed), the
> exploit still functions perfectly on L4D, L4D2 (requires -insecure on the
> client), and of course the older engines. The exploit allows for servers to
> run arbitrary code on clients. This can include anything from infecting
> them via the built in lobby system (they'd have to join a server, if it's a
> versus match even better). From there, the .dll could do something as
> simple as inviting friends to join them to play a match, then start
> downloading and executing code on the client whenever it wants. If CS:S
> wasn't part of the Source 2009 pact, I highly doubt it would have received
> this fix (HL2DM sure didn't have it for three months until it was ported).
> Everyone knows how bad GarrysMod 9 had gotten when GMod 10 came out, this
> can be L4D today and we would be none the wiser.
>
> What do we gain from this change? Slightly faster download speeds for
> HL2DM, DODS, and TF2 as CSS is no longer part of the update package (Mind
> you it's not like CSS was not the game getting the constant material/model
> updates...). Sure, this is nice. However, killing Counter-Strike Source
> before CS:GO comes out really can't be the goal here, right?
>
> VoiceHook is already broken because of the last required update, and needs
> to be built against the old SDK for server admins to be able to use it.
> Everything other plugin will follow as the Source 2009 engine continues to
> be updated.
>
> Hate me if you want for saying this, I haven't told a lie though.
> Kyle.
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Josh Stratton]

I know it's in Beta, it was reported that it was going to go live over a
month ago, I'm assuming that since CS:S has broke off, that time will take
even longer. Doesn't help that demos are broken in CS:S right now.

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:26 PM, ics  wrote:

> Replay is coming to CS Source, it's already in beta but that's propably the
> last thing it will receive and engine updates. No more content. Someone at V
> correct me if i'm wrong.
>
> -ics
>
> 19.10.2011 6:23, Josh Stratton kirjoitti:
>
>  Does this mean CS:S might still see a "Replay Update"?
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Henry 
>> Goffin
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  CS:S just happens to be the first game we've tried this split-binaries
>>> approach on. I don't know if there are technical reasons why we can or
>>> can't
>>> do the same thing for GM.
>>>
>>> On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:44 PM, "h...@gmx.com"  wrote:
>>>
>>>  ... and with more than 1 million copies sold on Steam ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  - Original Message -
>>>>  From: Chris Brunelle
>>>>  Sent: 10/19/11 05:40 AM
>>>>  To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>>>  Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike
>>>>
>>> Source.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...wIth a very small player base.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Jesse Porter
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes<
>>>>> violentcrimes@convictgaming.**com >
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  __**_
>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>>>> please visit:
>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Commodore64
>>>> __**_
>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>>>
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>>>
>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>> please visit:
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[ics]

Replay is coming to CS Source, it's already in beta but that's propably 
the last thing it will receive and engine updates. No more content. 
Someone at V correct me if i'm wrong.


-ics

19.10.2011 6:23, Josh Stratton kirjoitti:

Does this mean CS:S might still see a "Replay Update"?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Henry Goffinwrote:


CS:S just happens to be the first game we've tried this split-binaries
approach on. I don't know if there are technical reasons why we can or can't
do the same thing for GM.

On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:44 PM, "h...@gmx.com"  wrote:


... and with more than 1 million copies sold on Steam ...


  - Original Message -
  From: Chris Brunelle
  Sent: 10/19/11 05:40 AM
  To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
  Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike

Source.


...wIth a very small player base.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Jesse Porter

wrote:

Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes<
violentcri...@convictgaming.com>  wrote:


So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?




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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Josh Stratton]

Does this mean CS:S might still see a "Replay Update"?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Henry Goffin wrote:

> CS:S just happens to be the first game we've tried this split-binaries
> approach on. I don't know if there are technical reasons why we can or can't
> do the same thing for GM.
>
> On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:44 PM, "h...@gmx.com"  wrote:
>
> > ... and with more than 1 million copies sold on Steam ...
> >
> >
> >  - Original Message -
> >  From: Chris Brunelle
> >  Sent: 10/19/11 05:40 AM
> >  To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> >  Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike
> Source.
> >
> >
> > ...wIth a very small player base.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Jesse Porter 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes <
> >> violentcri...@convictgaming.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> >> please visit:
> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my Commodore64
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Kyle Sanderson]

Henry, this sounds good. Is Valve going to be taking an active role in
syncing the engine bins? HPE is pretty quiet for the most part in terms of
updates (even with the beta they pushed, reading comments and testing is not
their strong suit). With what happened last time to Episode 1, the situation
was beyond bad.

The only reason I mentioned GarrysMod 9 is because that's the first place
that I had seen a similar remote execution exploit. Someone randomly showed
me it in TF2 over a year ago and I was astonished. As far as I know, this is
no longer a problem with GMod 10/11/Whatever and Source 2009. However, this
is still an issue in L4D and L4D2 (after it's been public knowledge for over
a year, client's cannot do anything to stop it).

I honestly hope you're correct, Henry. I'm sure no one wants to repeat the
past. The neglect was pretty bad then.
Kyle.

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Henry Goffin wrote:

> I understand the concern, but it's based on an incorrect assumption. Yes,
> CS:S now stores its own binaries in a different folder. However, it has not
> actually branched away from the Source 2009 engine, and it still compiles
> from the same source code. We have simply gained the option of updating the
> binaries independently, so that for example, if an engine change is required
> for a TF feature but ends up causing a bug in CS:S, we can still deploy TF2
> without updating CS:S. Updates will continue to come for both games, and the
> engine will be roughly in sync between the two, except for periods of
> instability.
>
> For example, given the problems with the very latest Team Fortress update,
> I would assume that CS:S admins are quite happy to not be impacted. We will
> still be updating CS:S with all the Source 2009 engine fixes, just not at
> the exact same time.
>
>
>
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:13 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated
> Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.
>
> So, as some of you may have noticed... The last, and apparently final
> shared Engine/Game update (Manniversary... don't even get me started) moved
> Counter-Strike Source off of Source 2009 and into it's own engine branch.
> This was a deliberate change.
>
> What does this mean for the end user? No more shared binaries between
> HL2DM, DOD:S, and TF2. If you use MM:S, SM (including extensions), ES, or
> any sort of VSP, the author will now have to compile a binary built against
> the CSS "SDK" instead of Source 2009. This is needlessly increasing work for
> plugin authors. Another issue with this is after the 12th of November, 2007
> until the 23rd of June, 2010. Fixes were being backported days, weeks, or
> even months after they're more then public knowledge and are exploited. A
> decent example of this is sv_soundscape_printdebuginfo, after 5 months it
> was back ported to Episode 1... That was really gross then, who would want
> it to happen again?
>
> Just to reiterate how serious this is. On June 25th of 2010, Valve fixed
> the .dll loading exploit on Source 2009 (Which included CSS, thank god). To
> this date (I just remembered this existed from looking at old patch notes
> for OB, there's probably a number of exploits that were never fixed), the
> exploit still functions perfectly on L4D, L4D2 (requires -insecure on the
> client), and of course the older engines. The exploit allows for servers to
> run arbitrary code on clients. This can include anything from infecting them
> via the built in lobby system (they'd have to join a server, if it's a
> versus match even better). From there, the .dll could do something as simple
> as inviting friends to join them to play a match, then start downloading and
> executing code on the client whenever it wants. If CS:S wasn't part of the
> Source 2009 pact, I highly doubt it would have received this fix (HL2DM sure
> didn't have it for three months until it was ported). Everyone knows how bad
> GarrysMod 9 had gotten when GMod 10 came out, this can be L4D today and we
> would be none the wiser.
>
> What do we gain from this change? Slightly faster download speeds for
> HL2DM, DODS, and TF2 as CSS is no longer part of the update package (Mind
> you it's not like CSS was not the game getting the constant material/model
> updates...). Sure, this is nice. However, killing Counter-Strike Source
> before CS:GO comes out really can't be the goal here, right?
>
> VoiceHook is already broken because of the last required update, and needs
> to be built against the old SDK for server admins to be able to use it.
> Everything other plugin will follow as the Source 2009 engine continues to
> be updated.
>
> Hate me if you want for saying this, I haven't told a lie though.
> Kyle.
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list prefer

Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Henry Goffin]

CS:S just happens to be the first game we've tried this split-binaries approach 
on. I don't know if there are technical reasons why we can or can't do the same 
thing for GM.

On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:44 PM, "h...@gmx.com"  wrote:

> ... and with more than 1 million copies sold on Steam ...
> 
> 
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Chris Brunelle
>  Sent: 10/19/11 05:40 AM
>  To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>  Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike 
> Source.
> 
>   
> ...wIth a very small player base.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Jesse Porter  wrote:
> 
>> Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes <
>> violentcri...@convictgaming.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my Commodore64
> ___
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> visit:
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> 
> 
>  
> 
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[hlds]

... and with more than 1 million copies sold on Steam ...

 
  - Original Message -
  From: Chris Brunelle
  Sent: 10/19/11 05:40 AM
  To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
  Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.
 
   
...wIth a very small player base.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Jesse Porter  wrote:

> Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes <
> violentcri...@convictgaming.com> wrote:
>
> > So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?
> >
> >
> >
> ___
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>



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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[ics]

Just so you know, Garrysmod isn't a Valve game.

-ics

19.10.2011 5:36, Violent Crimes kirjoitti:

So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?

On 10/18/2011 10:25 PM, Henry Goffin wrote:
I understand the concern, but it's based on an incorrect assumption. 
Yes, CS:S now stores its own binaries in a different folder. However, 
it has not actually branched away from the Source 2009 engine, and it 
still compiles from the same source code. We have simply gained the 
option of updating the binaries independently, so that for example, 
if an engine change is required for a TF feature but ends up causing 
a bug in CS:S, we can still deploy TF2 without updating CS:S. Updates 
will continue to come for both games, and the engine will be roughly 
in sync between the two, except for periods of instability.


For example, given the problems with the very latest Team Fortress 
update, I would assume that CS:S admins are quite happy to not be 
impacted. We will still be updating CS:S with all the Source 2009 
engine fixes, just not at the exact same time.




From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson

Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:13 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; Half-Life 
dedicated Win32 server mailing list

Subject: [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

So, as some of you may have noticed... The last, and apparently final 
shared Engine/Game update (Manniversary... don't even get me started) 
moved Counter-Strike Source off of Source 2009 and into it's own 
engine branch. This was a deliberate change.


What does this mean for the end user? No more shared binaries between 
HL2DM, DOD:S, and TF2. If you use MM:S, SM (including extensions), 
ES, or any sort of VSP, the author will now have to compile a binary 
built against the CSS "SDK" instead of Source 2009. This is 
needlessly increasing work for plugin authors. Another issue with 
this is after the 12th of November, 2007 until the 23rd of June, 
2010. Fixes were being backported days, weeks, or even months after 
they're more then public knowledge and are exploited. A decent 
example of this is sv_soundscape_printdebuginfo, after 5 months it 
was back ported to Episode 1... That was really gross then, who would 
want it to happen again?


Just to reiterate how serious this is. On June 25th of 2010, Valve 
fixed the .dll loading exploit on Source 2009 (Which included CSS, 
thank god). To this date (I just remembered this existed from looking 
at old patch notes for OB, there's probably a number of exploits that 
were never fixed), the exploit still functions perfectly on L4D, L4D2 
(requires -insecure on the client), and of course the older engines. 
The exploit allows for servers to run arbitrary code on clients. This 
can include anything from infecting them via the built in lobby 
system (they'd have to join a server, if it's a versus match even 
better). From there, the .dll could do something as simple as 
inviting friends to join them to play a match, then start downloading 
and executing code on the client whenever it wants. If CS:S wasn't 
part of the Source 2009 pact, I highly doubt it would have received 
this fix (HL2DM sure didn't have it for three months until it was 
ported). Everyone knows how bad GarrysMod 9 had gotten when GMod 10 
came out, this can be L4D today and we would be none the wiser.


What do we gain from this change? Slightly faster download speeds for 
HL2DM, DODS, and TF2 as CSS is no longer part of the update package 
(Mind you it's not like CSS was not the game getting the constant 
material/model updates...). Sure, this is nice. However, killing 
Counter-Strike Source before CS:GO comes out really can't be the goal 
here, right?


VoiceHook is already broken because of the last required update, and 
needs to be built against the old SDK for server admins to be able to 
use it. Everything other plugin will follow as the Source 2009 engine 
continues to be updated.


Hate me if you want for saying this, I haven't told a lie though.
Kyle.
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4560 - Release Date: 
10/18/11







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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Chris Brunelle]

...wIth a very small player base.


On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Jesse Porter  wrote:

> Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes <
> violentcri...@convictgaming.com> wrote:
>
> > So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?
> >
> >
> >
> ___
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> please visit:
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>



-- 
Sent from my Commodore64
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Violent Crimes]

On the same engine as TF2.

On 10/18/2011 10:39 PM, Jesse Porter wrote:

Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes<
violentcri...@convictgaming.com>  wrote:


So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?




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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4560 - Release Date: 10/18/11





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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Jesse Porter]

Isn't garrysmod, you know, someone else's software?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Violent Crimes <
violentcri...@convictgaming.com> wrote:

> So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Violent Crimes]

So why did you not to this for Garrysmod?

On 10/18/2011 10:25 PM, Henry Goffin wrote:

I understand the concern, but it's based on an incorrect assumption. Yes, CS:S 
now stores its own binaries in a different folder. However, it has not actually 
branched away from the Source 2009 engine, and it still compiles from the same 
source code. We have simply gained the option of updating the binaries 
independently, so that for example, if an engine change is required for a TF 
feature but ends up causing a bug in CS:S, we can still deploy TF2 without 
updating CS:S. Updates will continue to come for both games, and the engine 
will be roughly in sync between the two, except for periods of instability.

For example, given the problems with the very latest Team Fortress update, I 
would assume that CS:S admins are quite happy to not be impacted. We will still 
be updating CS:S with all the Source 2009 engine fixes, just not at the exact 
same time.



From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:13 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated Win32 
server mailing list
Subject: [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

So, as some of you may have noticed... The last, and apparently final shared 
Engine/Game update (Manniversary... don't even get me started) moved 
Counter-Strike Source off of Source 2009 and into it's own engine branch. This 
was a deliberate change.

What does this mean for the end user? No more shared binaries between HL2DM, DOD:S, and 
TF2. If you use MM:S, SM (including extensions), ES, or any sort of VSP, the author will 
now have to compile a binary built against the CSS "SDK" instead of Source 
2009. This is needlessly increasing work for plugin authors. Another issue with this is 
after the 12th of November, 2007 until the 23rd of June, 2010. Fixes were being 
backported days, weeks, or even months after they're more then public knowledge and are 
exploited. A decent example of this is sv_soundscape_printdebuginfo, after 5 months it 
was back ported to Episode 1... That was really gross then, who would want it to happen 
again?

Just to reiterate how serious this is. On June 25th of 2010, Valve fixed the 
.dll loading exploit on Source 2009 (Which included CSS, thank god). To this 
date (I just remembered this existed from looking at old patch notes for OB, 
there's probably a number of exploits that were never fixed), the exploit still 
functions perfectly on L4D, L4D2 (requires -insecure on the client), and of 
course the older engines. The exploit allows for servers to run arbitrary code 
on clients. This can include anything from infecting them via the built in 
lobby system (they'd have to join a server, if it's a versus match even 
better). From there, the .dll could do something as simple as inviting friends 
to join them to play a match, then start downloading and executing code on the 
client whenever it wants. If CS:S wasn't part of the Source 2009 pact, I highly 
doubt it would have received this fix (HL2DM sure didn't have it for three 
months until it was ported). Everyone knows how bad GarrysMod 9 had gotten when 
GMod 10 came out, this can be L4D today and we would be none the wiser.

What do we gain from this change? Slightly faster download speeds for HL2DM, 
DODS, and TF2 as CSS is no longer part of the update package (Mind you it's not 
like CSS was not the game getting the constant material/model updates...). 
Sure, this is nice. However, killing Counter-Strike Source before CS:GO comes 
out really can't be the goal here, right?

VoiceHook is already broken because of the last required update, and needs to 
be built against the old SDK for server admins to be able to use it. Everything 
other plugin will follow as the Source 2009 engine continues to be updated.

Hate me if you want for saying this, I haven't told a lie though.
Kyle.
___
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1831 / Virus Database: 2092/4560 - Release Date: 10/18/11






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Re: [hlds_linux] [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

[Henry Goffin]

I understand the concern, but it's based on an incorrect assumption. Yes, CS:S 
now stores its own binaries in a different folder. However, it has not actually 
branched away from the Source 2009 engine, and it still compiles from the same 
source code. We have simply gained the option of updating the binaries 
independently, so that for example, if an engine change is required for a TF 
feature but ends up causing a bug in CS:S, we can still deploy TF2 without 
updating CS:S. Updates will continue to come for both games, and the engine 
will be roughly in sync between the two, except for periods of instability.

For example, given the problems with the very latest Team Fortress update, I 
would assume that CS:S admins are quite happy to not be impacted. We will still 
be updating CS:S with all the Source 2009 engine fixes, just not at the exact 
same time.



From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:13 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list; Half-Life dedicated Win32 
server mailing list
Subject: [hlds] The Premature Death of Counter-Strike Source.

So, as some of you may have noticed... The last, and apparently final shared 
Engine/Game update (Manniversary... don't even get me started) moved 
Counter-Strike Source off of Source 2009 and into it's own engine branch. This 
was a deliberate change.

What does this mean for the end user? No more shared binaries between HL2DM, 
DOD:S, and TF2. If you use MM:S, SM (including extensions), ES, or any sort of 
VSP, the author will now have to compile a binary built against the CSS "SDK" 
instead of Source 2009. This is needlessly increasing work for plugin authors. 
Another issue with this is after the 12th of November, 2007 until the 23rd of 
June, 2010. Fixes were being backported days, weeks, or even months after 
they're more then public knowledge and are exploited. A decent example of this 
is sv_soundscape_printdebuginfo, after 5 months it was back ported to Episode 
1... That was really gross then, who would want it to happen again?

Just to reiterate how serious this is. On June 25th of 2010, Valve fixed the 
.dll loading exploit on Source 2009 (Which included CSS, thank god). To this 
date (I just remembered this existed from looking at old patch notes for OB, 
there's probably a number of exploits that were never fixed), the exploit still 
functions perfectly on L4D, L4D2 (requires -insecure on the client), and of 
course the older engines. The exploit allows for servers to run arbitrary code 
on clients. This can include anything from infecting them via the built in 
lobby system (they'd have to join a server, if it's a versus match even 
better). From there, the .dll could do something as simple as inviting friends 
to join them to play a match, then start downloading and executing code on the 
client whenever it wants. If CS:S wasn't part of the Source 2009 pact, I highly 
doubt it would have received this fix (HL2DM sure didn't have it for three 
months until it was ported). Everyone knows how bad GarrysMod 9 had gotten when 
GMod 10 came out, this can be L4D today and we would be none the wiser.

What do we gain from this change? Slightly faster download speeds for HL2DM, 
DODS, and TF2 as CSS is no longer part of the update package (Mind you it's not 
like CSS was not the game getting the constant material/model updates...). 
Sure, this is nice. However, killing Counter-Strike Source before CS:GO comes 
out really can't be the goal here, right?

VoiceHook is already broken because of the last required update, and needs to 
be built against the old SDK for server admins to be able to use it. Everything 
other plugin will follow as the Source 2009 engine continues to be updated.

Hate me if you want for saying this, I haven't told a lie though.
Kyle.
___
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visit:
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