RE: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Eric (Deacon)]

Dude, I am SO sorry for flaming you so badly as I must have there. My
cutting words intended to insult and tear down were horribly wrong,
since I'm the one that typed them, or so I'm told.  That entire message
was definitely simply adding to the hlds_linux "fat", since it had my
name in the From field.  I'm sorry for contributing nothing but useless
excess tissue...

--
Eric (the Deacon remix)

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
> Florian Zschocke
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:26 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?
>
>
> "Eric (Deacon)" wrote:
> >
> > You're being pretty pushy, there, man.  Might want to tone
> it down a
> > notch.  Now, you both are obviously missing out on the fact that
> > you're both using the same term, but with a slight change in
> > perspective.
>
> Well then, sorry Eric, Stefan. I thought I made myself clear.
> Maybe I didn't.
>
> Florian.
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
> archives, please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo> /hlds_linux
>

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Florian Zschocke]

"Eric (Deacon)" wrote:
>
> You're being pretty pushy, there, man.  Might want to tone it down a
> notch.  Now, you both are obviously missing out on the fact that you're
> both using the same term, but with a slight change in perspective.

Well then, sorry Eric, Stefan. I thought I made myself clear.
Maybe I didn't.

Florian.
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[MoD]

- Original Message -
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?


> > > May I have some words about WTF IS THE DMCA?
> >
> > Digital Millenium *Copyright* Act
> >
>
>
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=105_cong_bills&doc
id=f:h2281enr.txt.pdf

Thank you, too much information is always better than none :D

  MoD,

Always @ your service.


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Jeremy Brooking]

> > May I have some words about WTF IS THE DMCA?
>
> Digital Millenium *Copyright* Act
>

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=105_cong_bills&docid=f:h2281enr.txt.pdf

Is what it is about.

> > USA != the entire world.
>

No, but go look at what WIPO are trying to do, especially with things
like their WCT. So far 35 countrys have signed that... and that numbers
ever increasing.

> Thank God.


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Erik]

I'd rather we proved that there is a technical solution or a social
solution to this problem.

On Wed, 2002-06-05 at 15:48, Petros Mylonopoulos wrote:
> 
> > Also consider that in both US and EU it is illegale to toy aroun dwith
> > secured information.
> >
> > By hacking into the security module they are not only breaking the EULA
> > but also breaking a much more serious law.
> Good point. Send the DMCA on them. Make it useful for a change.
>
> -
> Invader Zim  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | This looks like a job for me
> Counter Strike at| ICQ: 2548100  | So Everybody Just Follow me
> http://cs.take13.net | http://take13.net | Cuz we need a little controversy
> 6 CS servers powered by Slackware Linux  | Cuz it feels so empty without me
> -
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Angus Macgyver]

Well, I mean guys who propose that kind of crazy things ;-)

Mac

>- Original Message -
>From: Eric (Deacon)
>
>Just to point out a minor quibble: you're referring to everyone when you
>say "guys", not just the crackpot in question ;)
>--
>Eric (the Deacon remix)


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

RE: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Eric (Deacon)]

> You realy don't get it, do you. Ok, last time I'll reply to
> this. When a cheat is unloaded/disabled you cannot use it
> anymore. You cannot cheat. The cheat isn't there anymore, it
> doesn't function. To circumvent a detection means that as a
> result the cheat still is active and usable but was not
> detected. But the unloaded cheat is not present to be used,
> so how could this be circumvention.

You're being pretty pushy, there, man.  Might want to tone it down a
notch.  Now, you both are obviously missing out on the fact that you're
both using the same term, but with a slight change in perspective.

FLORIAN: My idea of "circumvention" means to have the cheat actively
running but managing to fool the VAC into thinking it's clean

STEFAN: My idea of "circumvention" also includes temporarily switching
off the cheat if it detects the VAC is present and active

They both accomplish the same thing: cheats installed and operational on
the machine are not detected.  One paints the term "circumvention" with
a broader stroke, yes.  Your own personal opinions on how broadly the
term should be interpreted are all that's differing at this point.  Get
it?  Got it?  Good ;)

--
Eric (the Deacon remix)

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

RE: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Eric (Deacon)]

> Well well, let me understand guys, what you want is politician to make
law
> about cheats abd maybe stolen key

Just to point out a minor quibble: you're referring to everyone when you
say "guys", not just the crackpot in question ;)

--
Eric (the Deacon remix)

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Florian Zschocke]

Stefan Huszics wrote:
>
> Actually what OGC is doing is 100% circumventing detection.
> The funtion is there ONLY check if the secure module is updated and it
> ONLY disables the cheat if it is, otherwise it stays active.
> That IS circumventing detection (as opposed to eg trying to _hide_ the
> active cheat from detection).

You realy don't get it, do you. Ok, last time I'll reply to this.
When a cheat is unloaded/disabled you cannot use it anymore. You
cannot cheat. The cheat isn't there anymore, it doesn't function.
To circumvent a detection means that as a result the cheat still
is active and usable but was not detected. But the unloaded cheat
is not present to be used, so how could this be circumvention.

In your logic if I would cheat and get detected and then I decide
to uninstall the cheat, wipe it from my harddrive, then I would
circumvent the detection (because the no existent cheat cannot be
deteted) and would thus be doing something illelgal? What kind of
a warped logic is that?

Btw, either you're living in the future or you compters date
setting is fucked up.

Florian.
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Petros Mylonopoulos]

> Valve using the DMCA would be a disaster for everyone.
How come?


-
Invader Zim  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | This looks like a job for me
Counter Strike at| ICQ: 2548100  | So Everybody Just Follow me
http://cs.take13.net | http://take13.net | Cuz we need a little controversy
6 CS servers powered by Slackware Linux  | Cuz it feels so empty without me
-


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Jeremy Brooking]

Or on the other hand you have countrys such as the Cook Islands, where
NO copyright laws apply.

try prosecute someone from there :)

On Thu, 2002-06-06 at 07:39, DeNiro wrote:
> Also consider that in both US and EU it is illegale to toy aroun dwith
> secured information.
>
> By hacking into the security module they are not only breaking the EULA but
> also breaking a much more serious law.
>
>
> > Of course, one good successfull legal case against a cheater or
> > cheat-maker would leave a very interesting situation afterwards.
> >


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Matt]

Valve using the DMCA would be a disaster for everyone.


On Wed, 2002-06-05 at 15:48, Petros Mylonopoulos wrote:
> 
> > Also consider that in both US and EU it is illegale to toy aroun dwith
> > secured information.
> >
> > By hacking into the security module they are not only breaking the EULA
> > but also breaking a much more serious law.
> Good point. Send the DMCA on them. Make it useful for a change.
>
> -
> Invader Zim  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | This looks like a job for me
> Counter Strike at| ICQ: 2548100  | So Everybody Just Follow me
> http://cs.take13.net | http://take13.net | Cuz we need a little controversy
> 6 CS servers powered by Slackware Linux  | Cuz it feels so empty without me
> -
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
--

Cheers,

Matt

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Petros Mylonopoulos]

> Also consider that in both US and EU it is illegale to toy aroun dwith
> secured information.
>
> By hacking into the security module they are not only breaking the EULA
> but also breaking a much more serious law.
Good point. Send the DMCA on them. Make it useful for a change.

-
Invader Zim  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | This looks like a job for me
Counter Strike at| ICQ: 2548100  | So Everybody Just Follow me
http://cs.take13.net | http://take13.net | Cuz we need a little controversy
6 CS servers powered by Slackware Linux  | Cuz it feels so empty without me
-


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Matt]

Valve is getting free bug testing from the cheat coders.  Plus if they
were to cry DMCA, that would be worse after all the bad press Blizzard
is getting.


On Wed, 2002-06-05 at 14:52, David Cousins wrote:
> Of course, one good successfull legal case against a cheater or cheat-maker
> would leave a very interesting situation afterwards.
>
> -Cruiser
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jonathan Hodges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 7:17 PM
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?
>
>
> > >Anyway, I don't think cheaters really care
> > >if they breach the EULA or not.
> > >Quite likely they didn't pay for the game to
> > >begin with, so breaking one
> > >rule more or less won't bother them.
> >
> > This brings me back to my point in the first place, which was why would
> > some cheater care about following the GPL guidelines when releasing new
> > versions of cheats when they don't care about legal issues anyway?
> >
> > >Actually what OGC is doing is 100%
> > >circumventing detection.
> >
> > Definitely.
> >
> > And about any legal action against cheaters, I do not know of any gaming
> > company taking action against them, nor do I think any will in the
> > future.  Not only are there way too many of them, but with so many
> > international users in the internet multiplayer community, it is
> > virtually impossible to track them all down and attempt to do anything
> > about them in their home country.  The gaming compaines and the admin
> > community will have to continue to develop ways to block these cheats
> > and patch any vulnerabilities, just as is happening now.  And plus, even
> > though updating the code is no easy task, it is still much faster than
> > any judiciary system in the world.
> >
> > It'ls been good to have some discussion on the issue.  Keep up the good
> > work Valve, admins, and organizations that promote fair gaming.
> >
> > Jonathan Hodges
> > Northwestern University
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
--

Cheers,

Matt

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Petros Mylonopoulos]

> Most ceratinly not. "Unloading" means disabling. That means that
> the cheat is no longer active/working, which it would have to be
> in order to have "circumvented" any detection.
Ah, but the full quote is
"You agree that you will not directly or indirectly disable, circumvent, or
otherwise interfere with the operation of software designed to prevent or
report the use of Cheats."
So, that includes unloading a cheat. With the unloading you "interfere with
the operation of the software designed to prevent or report the use of
cheats".

> What is also interesting is that this passage is not against
> cheats themselves, but against disabling detection methods.
And unloading a cheat definately disables detecting it.


> No, I'm not. But I do not condemn the cheat coders. I see the
> cheat users as the problem.
I see them both as the problem. The coders for making the cheats available
and the users for using them. Cheats are pretty ineffective without either
one of these 2 parties. It'd be like sending drug addicts to jail and
letting the dealers keep on dealing.


> And my second point is that I don't
> think Valve is really in the position of taking legal action
> against cheat coders. Maybe in some few parts of the world, but
> not in all. And cheating is a world wide problem since HL is
> played world wide. So this is a rather weak line of attack if you
> really want to do something against the cheating.
Quite. It's impossible to start any type of legal action against cheaters or
creators of cheats. Hell, there's still software piracy going on, and
they'll never catch 'em all, so why should they start on cheaters? It's a
nice idea, and it'd be nice to see a conviction on this, but it's not very
likely. Unless ofcourse we promote cheaters and cheat coders to "terrorist"
and have Bush bomb the crap out of 'em.
>
>
> Florian
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux


-
Invader Zim  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | This looks like a job for me
Counter Strike at| ICQ: 2548100  | So Everybody Just Follow me
http://cs.take13.net | http://take13.net | Cuz we need a little controversy
6 CS servers powered by Slackware Linux  | Cuz it feels so empty without me
-


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[DeNiro]

Also consider that in both US and EU it is illegale to toy aroun dwith
secured information.

By hacking into the security module they are not only breaking the EULA but
also breaking a much more serious law.


> Of course, one good successfull legal case against a cheater or
> cheat-maker would leave a very interesting situation afterwards.
>
> -Cruiser
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jonathan Hodges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 7:17 PM
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?
>
>
>> >Anyway, I don't think cheaters really care
>> >if they breach the EULA or not.
>> >Quite likely they didn't pay for the game to
>> >begin with, so breaking one
>> >rule more or less won't bother them.
>>
>> This brings me back to my point in the first place, which was why
>> would some cheater care about following the GPL guidelines when
>> releasing new versions of cheats when they don't care about legal
>> issues anyway?
>>
>> >Actually what OGC is doing is 100%
>> >circumventing detection.
>>
>> Definitely.
>>
>> And about any legal action against cheaters, I do not know of any
>> gaming company taking action against them, nor do I think any will in
>> the future.  Not only are there way too many of them, but with so many
>> international users in the internet multiplayer community, it is
>> virtually impossible to track them all down and attempt to do anything
>> about them in their home country.  The gaming compaines and the admin
>> community will have to continue to develop ways to block these cheats
>> and patch any vulnerabilities, just as is happening now.  And plus,
>> even though updating the code is no easy task, it is still much faster
>> than any judiciary system in the world.
>>
>> It'ls been good to have some discussion on the issue.  Keep up the
>> good work Valve, admins, and organizations that promote fair gaming.
>>
>> Jonathan Hodges
>> Northwestern University
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Cheaters having legality issues?

[Florian Zschocke]

Jonathan Hodges wrote:
>
> Now here's a little quote from the Half-Life user agreement:
>
> >Subject to the grant of license hereinabove, you may not, in
> >whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate,
> >reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble,
> >decompile, or create derivative works based on the Program,
> >or remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Program.
>
> ...the hypocracy continues.

And how does that apply to OGC given that it is based on code from
the SDK which was released with the explicit permission to base
code on? Care to explain?

Florian.
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux