Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
At various jobs I pulled 10base2 coax, then 10base5 coax, then twisted pair. [Well someone pulled it, but not me.] Anyone remember vampire taps in 10base2? What a reliability headache! Pulled from cable hanging in a plenum in a secure building... Because there was no way to get cable floor to floor other than through that single shaft. For a Xerox Star system. Then there was the token bus for the little Novell network over in legal --another disaster. blech Back on topic: I do think we should consider OSPF (not so keen on ISIS, but OK) and should not rule out OLSRv2 or other LLN related work and MANET work (though I'm far from an expert on LLN or MANET). IS-IS is easier to get to zero config, and it's actually simpler in operation... Which is why I brought it up. :-) We will have to extend OSPF to make zero config possible. The extensions should be completely backwards compatible if at all possible. Yes, I agree... Or we need w new wired/wireless protocol that jumps both worlds, and would actually be acceptable and implemented by a large number of vendors. But that's another entire problem space... :-) Russ ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
Off list. In message 4e96d145.5090...@riw.us Russ White writes: At various jobs I pulled 10base2 coax, then 10base5 coax, then twisted pair. [Well someone pulled it, but not me.] Anyone remember vampire taps in 10base2? What a reliability headache! Pulled from cable hanging in a plenum in a secure building... Because there was no way to get cable floor to floor other than through that single shaft. For a Xerox Star system. Then there was the token bus for the little Novell network over in legal --another disaster. blech I managed to avoid token ring and novell. Back on topic: I do think we should consider OSPF (not so keen on ISIS, but OK) and should not rule out OLSRv2 or other LLN related work and MANET work (though I'm far from an expert on LLN or MANET). IS-IS is easier to get to zero config, and it's actually simpler in operation... Which is why I brought it up. :-) I've used both. Why do you think ISIS is simpler in operation? Because people love to deal with NSAPs? We will have to extend OSPF to make zero config possible. The extensions should be completely backwards compatible if at all possible. Yes, I agree... Or we need w new wired/wireless protocol that jumps both worlds, and would actually be acceptable and implemented by a large number of vendors. But that's another entire problem space... We agree on something. That's good. :-) The clueless vendor problem space is a tough one. :-) Russ Curtis ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
Hi Jim, I agree with you. Let me just add a few words on #2 : You are absolutely right that pulling cable is hard and expensive. That is the rationale of PLC : Using existing wires. PLC is already used reliabily for high speed networking, but you are correct that it is not as popular as Wireless. Mostly because networking devices already embed a Wifi and/Or Ethernet interface, rather than a PLC interface. So people don't see the need of buying additional material for a connectivity they already have… Though people use PLC because they feel surrounded by RF, or they cannot reach some point of the network with wireless, or the PLC device is provided by their ISP (like in France). (There are others reasons for using PLC outside the home, but I think it is out of the scope of Homenet). PLC also suffers from a lack of standardization, and different technologies/Standards are often non-interoperable, or simply cannot coexist on the same electrical grid. An effort is ongoing in IEEE P1901.2 to create a standard for low frequency narrowband PLC. Just my 2 cts, Cédric. Le 11 oct. 2011 à 21:10, Jim Gettys a écrit : On 10/07/2011 03:48 AM, Fred Baker wrote: 4) The use of OLSR in mesh network scenarios Jim Gettys commented on the fact of OLSR use. The general sense of the room was that OLSRv2 is interesting but out of scope for this discussion as mesh networks are quite different from typical residential and SOHO networks. Actually, I have no opinion of OLSR, Babel, Babelz or OSPF; it's not my area of expertise. Babel/BabelZ is appearing in CeroWrt today as the people who are interested in such things are doing the work (we don't need a routing protocol in the simple single home router case), and it provided the functionality we needed. For those who want something else, quagga is in the CeroWrt build for your hacking pleasure. And I'm not advocating the homenet working group do anything unusual about routing at this date; as I said, it's not my area of expertise. Having said this, I do note the following technological trends: 1) As soon as we get real plug and play routers that don't need manual configuration that work, we'll see a lot more routers in a home environment. Other radio technologies (e.g. zigbee) may encourage this trend. It seemed like the working group agreed that getting to the point that just hooking things together would really just worked was a fundamental requirement (and I agree entirely with this sentiment, as it reflects reality of what already happens in the homes of hackers and non-hackers alike). 2) wireless is much cheaper to implement than wired networking, particularly in most houses where pulling cable is hard. I know this first hand, where I've pulled a lot of cat 6 and wish I could get it to places I don't have it. Unless power line networking really works, I believe that this trend isn't going to change. Is there any progress in this area? I've seen many promises, and few reliable working products. 3) As soon as you have two routers, you have at least two paths; the wired connection between them and the wireless. You may have 3 paths, if you have both 2.4 and 5ghz radios. Frequency diversity routing becomes immediately interesting, along with using your ethernet when it's available in preference to wireless. 4) an apartment building look like a mesh, and possibly with multiple backhauls possibly with multiple ISP's. One should at least think about what happens when you have homes, in such a building, and make sure nothing breaks. Wireless is messy: it isn't limited to where a wire goes. Taking down an entire apartment building/blocks/city would not be fun. I know, I've been there (at least to the point of taking down buildings, and came within a week of a much larger scale disaster). If you believe 1 + 2 + 3 +4 (as I do), then if you look a few years out, you end up with something in the home that begins to resemble very strongly what the community mesh networking folks are doing at a higher scale geographically and in terms of # of nodes today, with many/most of the same concerns and solutions. Understanding the problems they've faced/are facing is therefore worth a bit of investment; Radio diversity is one of the concerns, and interference (of various sorts). Julius' talk about why frequency diversity is an issue is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNzm0shSA8 While the issues outlined above are not where home networking is today, my gut feel is they will be in five years. If there is *anything* I can urge on the group, is to respect the scaling problems that can/will occur, and to internalise wireless !=wired: wireless goes where wireless goes and does not behave like ethernet. The group needs to ensure nothing bad happens when people start building systems in ways you don't expect, particularly in an apartment building. The challenge is balancing the
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
Le 12 oct. 2011 à 13:51, Russ White a écrit : You are absolutely right that pulling cable is hard and expensive. Pulling cable is indeed hard and expensive. In my experience, it is the right thing for some applications, such as TV and my home office. Personally, I have both wired and wireless throughout the house; my personal rule is that I use the shared wireless network for activities that move around, to provide convenience at the expense of consistency and bandwidth, and wired for things that stand still, to provide stable bandwidth at the price of a one-time wiring effort. I do the same --I pull cable for televisions, and even for locations where a desktop or laptop is going to be sitting on a regular basis. So I think we should expect wired and wireless as the norm, rather than expecting wireless all the time. I agree. I may have precised pulling *NEW* cable is hard and expensive in my sentence. While I wouldn't want to rule OLSRv2 completely out, I think it should compete head to head with an extended OSPF and an extended IS-IS, or even other efforts afoot. I'd rather see requirements first, and a good solid evaluation of what's available against those requirements, rather than choosing technologies out of the gate. :-) I think it is a good process, for each competing protocol. Russ Cédric. ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
In message 4e9494a9.4030...@freedesktop.org Jim Gettys writes: Having said this, I do note the following technological trends: 1) As soon as we get real plug and play routers that don't need manual configuration that work, we'll see a lot more routers in a home environment. Other radio technologies (e.g. zigbee) may encourage this trend. It seemed like the working group agreed that getting to the point that just hooking things together would really just worked was a fundamental requirement (and I agree entirely with this sentiment, as it reflects reality of what already happens in the homes of hackers and non-hackers alike). 2) wireless is much cheaper to implement than wired networking, particularly in most houses where pulling cable is hard. I know this first hand, where I've pulled a lot of cat 6 and wish I could get it to places I don't have it. Unless power line networking really works, I believe that this trend isn't going to change. Is there any progress in this area? I've seen many promises, and few reliable working products. 3) As soon as you have two routers, you have at least two paths; the wired connection between them and the wireless. You may have 3 paths, if you have both 2.4 and 5ghz radios. Frequency diversity routing becomes immediately interesting, along with using your ethernet when it's available in preference to wireless. 4) an apartment building look like a mesh, and possibly with multiple backhauls possibly with multiple ISP's. One should at least think about what happens when you have homes, in such a building, and make sure nothing breaks. Wireless is messy: it isn't limited to where a wire goes. Taking down an entire apartment building/blocks/city would not be fun. I know, I've been there (at least to the point of taking down buildings, and came within a week of a much larger scale disaster). If you believe 1 + 2 + 3 +4 (as I do), then if you look a few years out, you end up with something in the home that begins to resemble very strongly what the community mesh networking folks are doing at a higher scale geographically and in terms of # of nodes today, with many/most of the same concerns and solutions. Understanding the problems they've faced/are facing is therefore worth a bit of investment; Radio diversity is one of the concerns, and interference (of various sorts). Very good points. Much of the discussion has been focused on the single home in isolation. Curtis ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
On 10/12/11 7:51 PM, Russ White wrote: [...] While I wouldn't want to rule OLSRv2 completely out, I think it should compete head to head with an extended OSPF and an extended IS-IS, or even other efforts afoot. I'd rather see requirements first, and a good solid evaluation of what's available against those requirements, rather than choosing technologies out of the gate. Hi Russ, I fully agree. There should be an evaluation against the requirements. My point was just not to rule out OLSRv2 (or other protocols) based on the fact that a protocol is used, amongst other, in mesh network deployments. Ulrich ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
In message 4e957f43.1060...@riw.us Russ White writes: You are absolutely right that pulling cable is hard and expensive. Pulling cable is indeed hard and expensive. In my experience, it is the right thing for some applications, such as TV and my home office. Personally, I have both wired and wireless throughout the house; my personal rule is that I use the shared wireless network for activities that move around, to provide convenience at the expense of consistency and bandwidth, and wired for things that stand still, to provide stable bandwidth at the price of a one-time wiring effort. I do the same --I pull cable for televisions, and even for locations where a desktop or laptop is going to be sitting on a regular basis. So I think we should expect wired and wireless as the norm, rather than expecting wireless all the time. While I wouldn't want to rule OLSRv2 completely out, I think it should compete head to head with an extended OSPF and an extended IS-IS, or even other efforts afoot. I'd rather see requirements first, and a good solid evaluation of what's available against those requirements, rather than choosing technologies out of the gate. :-) Russ Russ, At various jobs I pulled 10base2 coax, then 10base5 coax, then twisted pair. [Well someone pulled it, but not me.] Anyone remember vampire taps in 10base2? What a reliability headache! I pulled 10base5 coax at home before I pulled twisted pair and before trying the early DEC Wavlan stuff that preceeded WiFi (again, at home). Too bad I moved and had to pull wire again (but I like the result). Back on topic: I do think we should consider OSPF (not so keen on ISIS, but OK) and should not rule out OLSRv2 or other LLN related work and MANET work (though I'm far from an expert on LLN or MANET). We will have to extend OSPF to make zero config possible. The extensions should be completely backwards compatible if at all possible. Curtis ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
Curtis, At about same time you were moving/re-wiring your new house, I've started to use Ethernet over power and have been using it since then :) Regards, Jeff -Original Message- From: homenet-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:homenet-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Villamizar Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 19:29 To: Russ White Cc: homenet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends In message 4e957f43.1060...@riw.us Russ White writes: You are absolutely right that pulling cable is hard and expensive. Pulling cable is indeed hard and expensive. In my experience, it is the right thing for some applications, such as TV and my home office. Personally, I have both wired and wireless throughout the house; my personal rule is that I use the shared wireless network for activities that move around, to provide convenience at the expense of consistency and bandwidth, and wired for things that stand still, to provide stable bandwidth at the price of a one-time wiring effort. I do the same --I pull cable for televisions, and even for locations where a desktop or laptop is going to be sitting on a regular basis. So I think we should expect wired and wireless as the norm, rather than expecting wireless all the time. While I wouldn't want to rule OLSRv2 completely out, I think it should compete head to head with an extended OSPF and an extended IS-IS, or even other efforts afoot. I'd rather see requirements first, and a good solid evaluation of what's available against those requirements, rather than choosing technologies out of the gate. :-) Russ Russ, At various jobs I pulled 10base2 coax, then 10base5 coax, then twisted pair. [Well someone pulled it, but not me.] Anyone remember vampire taps in 10base2? What a reliability headache! I pulled 10base5 coax at home before I pulled twisted pair and before trying the early DEC Wavlan stuff that preceeded WiFi (again, at home). Too bad I moved and had to pull wire again (but I like the result). Back on topic: I do think we should consider OSPF (not so keen on ISIS, but OK) and should not rule out OLSRv2 or other LLN related work and MANET work (though I'm far from an expert on LLN or MANET). We will have to extend OSPF to make zero config possible. The extensions should be completely backwards compatible if at all possible. Curtis ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
On 10/07/2011 03:48 AM, Fred Baker wrote: 4) The use of OLSR in mesh network scenarios Jim Gettys commented on the fact of OLSR use. The general sense of the room was that OLSRv2 is interesting but out of scope for this discussion as mesh networks are quite different from typical residential and SOHO networks. Actually, I have no opinion of OLSR, Babel, Babelz or OSPF; it's not my area of expertise. Babel/BabelZ is appearing in CeroWrt today as the people who are interested in such things are doing the work (we don't need a routing protocol in the simple single home router case), and it provided the functionality we needed. For those who want something else, quagga is in the CeroWrt build for your hacking pleasure. And I'm not advocating the homenet working group do anything unusual about routing at this date; as I said, it's not my area of expertise. Having said this, I do note the following technological trends: 1) As soon as we get real plug and play routers that don't need manual configuration that work, we'll see a lot more routers in a home environment. Other radio technologies (e.g. zigbee) may encourage this trend. It seemed like the working group agreed that getting to the point that just hooking things together would really just worked was a fundamental requirement (and I agree entirely with this sentiment, as it reflects reality of what already happens in the homes of hackers and non-hackers alike). 2) wireless is much cheaper to implement than wired networking, particularly in most houses where pulling cable is hard. I know this first hand, where I've pulled a lot of cat 6 and wish I could get it to places I don't have it. Unless power line networking really works, I believe that this trend isn't going to change. Is there any progress in this area? I've seen many promises, and few reliable working products. 3) As soon as you have two routers, you have at least two paths; the wired connection between them and the wireless. You may have 3 paths, if you have both 2.4 and 5ghz radios. Frequency diversity routing becomes immediately interesting, along with using your ethernet when it's available in preference to wireless. 4) an apartment building look like a mesh, and possibly with multiple backhauls possibly with multiple ISP's. One should at least think about what happens when you have homes, in such a building, and make sure nothing breaks. Wireless is messy: it isn't limited to where a wire goes. Taking down an entire apartment building/blocks/city would not be fun. I know, I've been there (at least to the point of taking down buildings, and came within a week of a much larger scale disaster). If you believe 1 + 2 + 3 +4 (as I do), then if you look a few years out, you end up with something in the home that begins to resemble very strongly what the community mesh networking folks are doing at a higher scale geographically and in terms of # of nodes today, with many/most of the same concerns and solutions. Understanding the problems they've faced/are facing is therefore worth a bit of investment; Radio diversity is one of the concerns, and interference (of various sorts). Julius' talk about why frequency diversity is an issue is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNzm0shSA8 While the issues outlined above are not where home networking is today, my gut feel is they will be in five years. If there is *anything* I can urge on the group, is to respect the scaling problems that can/will occur, and to internalise wireless !=wired: wireless goes where wireless goes and does not behave like ethernet. The group needs to ensure nothing bad happens when people start building systems in ways you don't expect, particularly in an apartment building. The challenge is balancing the reality of how wireless works, with just works automatic configuration, with fail safe behaviour. - Jim ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
Re: [homenet] Thoughts about routing - trends
Hi Jim, I fully agree with you. Declaring OLSRv2 etc. out of scope just because a home is not a mesh network seems simplistic to me. As you explained in your mail, many of the problems that mesh networks already solve successfully today, can be very similar in a home: dynamic topology, no skilled network operator centrally managing the devices, wireless and wired devices, limited resources on the routers etc. These were exactly the motivation for developing such protocols in MANET. Best regards Ulrich On 10/12/11 3:10 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: On 10/07/2011 03:48 AM, Fred Baker wrote: 4) The use of OLSR in mesh network scenarios Jim Gettys commented on the fact of OLSR use. The general sense of the room was that OLSRv2 is interesting but out of scope for this discussion as mesh networks are quite different from typical residential and SOHO networks. Actually, I have no opinion of OLSR, Babel, Babelz or OSPF; it's not my area of expertise. Babel/BabelZ is appearing in CeroWrt today as the people who are interested in such things are doing the work (we don't need a routing protocol in the simple single home router case), and it provided the functionality we needed. For those who want something else, quagga is in the CeroWrt build for your hacking pleasure. And I'm not advocating the homenet working group do anything unusual about routing at this date; as I said, it's not my area of expertise. Having said this, I do note the following technological trends: 1) As soon as we get real plug and play routers that don't need manual configuration that work, we'll see a lot more routers in a home environment. Other radio technologies (e.g. zigbee) may encourage this trend. It seemed like the working group agreed that getting to the point that just hooking things together would really just worked was a fundamental requirement (and I agree entirely with this sentiment, as it reflects reality of what already happens in the homes of hackers and non-hackers alike). 2) wireless is much cheaper to implement than wired networking, particularly in most houses where pulling cable is hard. I know this first hand, where I've pulled a lot of cat 6 and wish I could get it to places I don't have it. Unless power line networking really works, I believe that this trend isn't going to change. Is there any progress in this area? I've seen many promises, and few reliable working products. 3) As soon as you have two routers, you have at least two paths; the wired connection between them and the wireless. You may have 3 paths, if you have both 2.4 and 5ghz radios. Frequency diversity routing becomes immediately interesting, along with using your ethernet when it's available in preference to wireless. 4) an apartment building look like a mesh, and possibly with multiple backhauls possibly with multiple ISP's. One should at least think about what happens when you have homes, in such a building, and make sure nothing breaks. Wireless is messy: it isn't limited to where a wire goes. Taking down an entire apartment building/blocks/city would not be fun. I know, I've been there (at least to the point of taking down buildings, and came within a week of a much larger scale disaster). If you believe 1 + 2 + 3 +4 (as I do), then if you look a few years out, you end up with something in the home that begins to resemble very strongly what the community mesh networking folks are doing at a higher scale geographically and in terms of # of nodes today, with many/most of the same concerns and solutions. Understanding the problems they've faced/are facing is therefore worth a bit of investment; Radio diversity is one of the concerns, and interference (of various sorts). Julius' talk about why frequency diversity is an issue is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNzm0shSA8 While the issues outlined above are not where home networking is today, my gut feel is they will be in five years. If there is *anything* I can urge on the group, is to respect the scaling problems that can/will occur, and to internalise wireless !=wired: wireless goes where wireless goes and does not behave like ethernet. The group needs to ensure nothing bad happens when people start building systems in ways you don't expect, particularly in an apartment building. The challenge is balancing the reality of how wireless works, with just works automatic configuration, with fail safe behaviour. - Jim ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet ___ homenet mailing list homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
