RE: [Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague
In line with the Prof's comments, I have to wonder how he did on trumpet.harmonics are closer together within the playing range on horn, but would think he would have many of the same problems. Anyway, unless he is willing to "take ownership" of the problem by either extensive practice and/or private lessons, I would most probably look for a way to end his service with your orchestra. There are certainly other local groups more appropriate to his playing level. You could tell him that he will be very welcome back once the habitual problems are solved. I don't see this as being hard on him...he is probably uncomfortable because he is slightly out of his league, so this would really be doing him a favor. If you uncomfortable with this, enlist the music director, as it is his job anyway. Fred -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Hans Sent: Sun 10/9/2005 9:42 PM To: 'The Horn List' Cc: Subject: RE: [Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague There must be some severe defects in his or her training, as just "nerves" would not create such effects as you described. If he does not notice quickly enough at whih harmonic he is playing along, he seems a just finger trained player without using his ears. If he gets that nervous when playing in the group, it might destroy the group. Wouldn´t it be better to switch to percussion - no harmonic problems, just counting & bm ? Something cannot be cured or learned, sorry. It does not depend on the energy only, there must be a certain basic feeling Ability . talent .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Keeffe Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:23 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague Hello Fellow Hornists I play principal in a local volunteer community orchestra. My second took up the horn some years ago after playing trumpet for most of his life. He's quite able, but gets tense in exposed passages, to the extent that he often jumps up a harmonic - and I think doesn't notice quickly enough, again because of the tension. He can get it right when we work alone, and at home in practice (I believe). His fingering is fine! Other symptoms appear as a loss of low register - downward octave leaps (or bigger) often get smaller! This is a bit of a problem in the classical repertoire! I've advised home to look at etudes (Kopprasch, Arban) which have big leaps in, to play along with recordings, and to note down what I play so he knows what to listen out for. However, things have got a bit stuck, and he still makes the same sort of error. Does anyone have any experience of this, and how did they help? David K -- Systemsolve Pty Ltd 03 9833 4421/0413 043 586 http://www.systemsolve.net http://www.music.systemsolve.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fred.baucom%40ftb.ca.gov ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Well, you should agree with other sections on which zigzag of the conductors beat all should release their sound. If you play after the beat (as trombones do too often !), you will be late. Everybody has to come with the beat, which means, all have to link in with the conductors beat, feel it & play with it. Acoustically: if there is too much space between the horns & a wall behind, reflecting their sound, it might take longer for the sound to reach the mic indeed. Trying a different seating (as recommended by others) would help as well as certain sound reflectors (sound shields) well behind the horns, say some one meter or 1.5. This is a field for experiments. But how would you manage precise playing, if you had to anticipate every note ? Impossible. And if, how far apart from the other instruments would the horns be playing, as most horns tend to be a bit early anyway. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 2:00 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra, and we were ALL behind the beat. I'm sure this has to do with the hall, and it would seem that the most obvious way to correct it would be to play a quarter of a beat ahead. I have to question if this is correct, because there were eight horn players there, and none of us thought to play ahead of the beat. Also, I have never had a teacher tell me to play ahead of the beat. Is this common practice among orchestral horn players, or is there some trick I'm missing? Would the use of special equipment (like a sound shield) help this problem, or would that be on the list of blasphemous taboos of horn playing? Thanks very much. Nick Hartman __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague
There must be some severe defects in his or her training, as just "nerves" would not create such effects as you described. If he does not notice quickly enough at whih harmonic he is playing along, he seems a just finger trained player without using his ears. If he gets that nervous when playing in the group, it might destroy the group. Wouldn´t it be better to switch to percussion - no harmonic problems, just counting & bm ? Something cannot be cured or learned, sorry. It does not depend on the energy only, there must be a certain basic feeling Ability . talent .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Keeffe Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 5:23 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague Hello Fellow Hornists I play principal in a local volunteer community orchestra. My second took up the horn some years ago after playing trumpet for most of his life. He's quite able, but gets tense in exposed passages, to the extent that he often jumps up a harmonic - and I think doesn't notice quickly enough, again because of the tension. He can get it right when we work alone, and at home in practice (I believe). His fingering is fine! Other symptoms appear as a loss of low register - downward octave leaps (or bigger) often get smaller! This is a bit of a problem in the classical repertoire! I've advised home to look at etudes (Kopprasch, Arban) which have big leaps in, to play along with recordings, and to note down what I play so he knows what to listen out for. However, things have got a bit stuck, and he still makes the same sort of error. Does anyone have any experience of this, and how did they help? David K -- Systemsolve Pty Ltd 03 9833 4421/0413 043 586 http://www.systemsolve.net http://www.music.systemsolve.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] helping a nervous colleague
Hello Fellow Hornists I play principal in a local volunteer community orchestra. My second took up the horn some years ago after playing trumpet for most of his life. He's quite able, but gets tense in exposed passages, to the extent that he often jumps up a harmonic - and I think doesn't notice quickly enough, again because of the tension. He can get it right when we work alone, and at home in practice (I believe). His fingering is fine! Other symptoms appear as a loss of low register - downward octave leaps (or bigger) often get smaller! This is a bit of a problem in the classical repertoire! I've advised home to look at etudes (Kopprasch, Arban) which have big leaps in, to play along with recordings, and to note down what I play so he knows what to listen out for. However, things have got a bit stuck, and he still makes the same sort of error. Does anyone have any experience of this, and how did they help? David K -- Systemsolve Pty Ltd 03 9833 4421/0413 043 586 http://www.systemsolve.net http://www.music.systemsolve.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
You can get brass pox from small pits and scratches--acid from the hands gets in them and eats away. I've had it happen. Herb Foster --- Bill Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What about a double horn that is say 30+ years old with the lacquer > departing the horn in bits and pieces and many small scratches? Is there > any value other than that of appearance to completely remove it, or have it > refinished? > __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Hi Nick, It is really up to the conductor to fix this problem. I have had situations when I had to anticipate a bit to give the conductor what he wanted. Other times, I played along with what I heard and all was well. What I DO know is that you cannot completely trust the recording. Microphone placement is extremely crucial, and there are plenty of amateur engineers out there who do not know how to analyze a room and set up properly. A quarter of a beat is pretty extreme, and if the conductor was not complaining, and you felt like you were playing exactly with everyone else, there might be more to the problem than meets the ear. Ciao. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nicholas Hartman Hartman Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 9:00 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra, and we were ALL behind the beat. I'm sure this has to do with the hall, and it would seem that the most obvious way to correct it would be to play a quarter of a beat ahead. I have to question if this is correct, because there were eight horn players there, and none of us thought to play ahead of the beat. Also, I have never had a teacher tell me to play ahead of the beat. Is this common practice among orchestral horn players, or is there some trick I'm missing? Would the use of special equipment (like a sound shield) help this problem, or would that be on the list of blasphemous taboos of horn playing? Thanks very much. Nick Hartman __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Hi, Nick - I don't know about your particular situation, but I've found that it's good to have something behind the horns other than curtains, 100 percussionists, etc. My favorite place to sit is to the right of the WW's. The only downside to this is being close to the second violins. Also, for me, there are two things that are almost impossible to do. Play notes too short. Play too early. Regards, Carlberg Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Anticipating the Beat
Dear list, This past summer, I had the opportunity to play in a full size concert hall with a full symphony orchestra. I listened to our recording of the performance, and I noticed that the horns were consistently about a quarter of a beat behind. I find this strange because there was a wide range of talents playing in this orchestra, and we were ALL behind the beat. I'm sure this has to do with the hall, and it would seem that the most obvious way to correct it would be to play a quarter of a beat ahead. I have to question if this is correct, because there were eight horn players there, and none of us thought to play ahead of the beat. Also, I have never had a teacher tell me to play ahead of the beat. Is this common practice among orchestral horn players, or is there some trick I'm missing? Would the use of special equipment (like a sound shield) help this problem, or would that be on the list of blasphemous taboos of horn playing? Thanks very much. Nick Hartman __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
What about a double horn that is say 30+ years old with the lacquer departing the horn in bits and pieces and many small scratches? Is there any value other than that of appearance to completely remove it, or have it refinished? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hans Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 2:37 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered Sorry, sorry, Alan, I thought the same for years, - until they moved us in the pit, so we sat very unfavoreable acoustically, playing right below the stage into the "grave" where the percussion was placed before. No problems with a lacquered double or better say, very little problems, but when using the Viennese single F with it´s much less resonating mass, what a difference when I got it delacquered, a very positive change. Yes, it makes a difference if the instrument is lacquered or not. Also, it is a big difference if an instrument is lacquered or silver plated, as plating means a permanent & perfect binding between the metal of the instrument & the electrolytic applicated silver, while the lacquer is applied but not bound to the metal chemically, as you can get it off easily, while removing the electrolytic plating is only possible by depolishing it mechanically as a part of the metal body. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:17 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered If you can't hear a difference, & the audience can't, & the conductor can't, & your section colleagues can't, and the differences (such as they are, if any) between the sounds coming out of lacquered & unlacquered horns are so tiny as to be detectable only by highly sensistive electronic instrumentation, then as a practical matter there is virtually no difference. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nada. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 01:24 PM 10/9/2005, you wrote: I wonder if taking laquer off the instrument realy contributes to its sound . can anyone (horn builders and repair techs especialy , but realy -anyone ) tell me? Alon Reuven , Israel -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/116 - Release Date: 9/30/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
I'm wondering about this myself. My horn's laquer is slowly coming off in certain places and I'm wondering if I shouldn't just let it lose all of its laquer naturally or just speed up the process. -William In a message dated 10/9/2005 2:37:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, sorry, Alan, I thought the same for years, - until they moved us in the pit, so we sat very unfavoreable acoustically, playing right below the stage into the "grave" where the percussion was placed before. No problems with a lacquered double or better say, very little problems, but when using the Viennese single F with it´s much less resonating mass, what a difference when I got it delacquered, a very positive change. Yes, it makes a difference if the instrument is lacquered or not. Also, it is a big difference if an instrument is lacquered or silver plated, as plating means a permanent & perfect binding between the metal of the instrument & the electrolytic applicated silver, while the lacquer is applied but not bound to the metal chemically, as you can get it off easily, while removing the electrolytic plating is only possible by depolishing it mechanically as a part of the metal body. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
Sorry, sorry, Alan, I thought the same for years, - until they moved us in the pit, so we sat very unfavoreable acoustically, playing right below the stage into the "grave" where the percussion was placed before. No problems with a lacquered double or better say, very little problems, but when using the Viennese single F with it´s much less resonating mass, what a difference when I got it delacquered, a very positive change. Yes, it makes a difference if the instrument is lacquered or not. Also, it is a big difference if an instrument is lacquered or silver plated, as plating means a permanent & perfect binding between the metal of the instrument & the electrolytic applicated silver, while the lacquer is applied but not bound to the metal chemically, as you can get it off easily, while removing the electrolytic plating is only possible by depolishing it mechanically as a part of the metal body. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cole Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:17 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered If you can't hear a difference, & the audience can't, & the conductor can't, & your section colleagues can't, and the differences (such as they are, if any) between the sounds coming out of lacquered & unlacquered horns are so tiny as to be detectable only by highly sensistive electronic instrumentation, then as a practical matter there is virtually no difference. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nada. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 01:24 PM 10/9/2005, you wrote: I wonder if taking laquer off the instrument realy contributes to its sound . can anyone (horn builders and repair techs especialy , but realy -anyone ) tell me? Alon Reuven , Israel -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/116 - Release Date: 9/30/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] disrespect
Message text written by The Horn List >5. He's acting like a child & getting away with it.< Dear All This thread reminds me of a time in my early professional days when, as a callow youth straight out of music college, I was booked to play 8th horn with a well known orchestra. The 7th was a slightly less callow youth who, at one point, told me that I was out of tune. The 1st horn heard this as we were sitting 'four in front, four behind', and he turned round and said to the 7th horn - " and who told YOU that sunshine?" The 7th horn (now selling double glazing) shut up and never spoke again during the remaining sessions. Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
If you can't hear a difference, & the audience can't, & the conductor can't, & your section colleagues can't, and the differences (such as they are, if any) between the sounds coming out of lacquered & unlacquered horns are so tiny as to be detectable only by highly sensistive electronic instrumentation, then as a practical matter there is virtually no difference. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nada. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 01:24 PM 10/9/2005, you wrote: I wonder if taking laquer off the instrument realy contributes to its sound . can anyone (horn builders and repair techs especialy , but realy -anyone ) tell me? Alon Reuven , Israel -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/116 - Release Date: 9/30/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Violence in pursuit of national policy
Bill G wrote While we're wondering anyone wonder why some folks pointed out the futility of using force of violence in pursuit of national policy but are willing to further it within a horn section? And Carlberg J answered I don't know about others, but I personally don't have the weapons required. Just a worn out woopie cushion, although, I must say, it seems that it's not really necessary in the orchestras in which I play. *** If you think it's unnecessary, then you clearly have never played Alpine Symphony by Strauss, in which horns 9-12 double on Whoopie Cushions. Gotta go, Cabbage ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] laquered vs.unlaquered
I wonder if taking laquer off the instrument realy contributes to its sound . can anyone (horn builders and repair techs especialy , but realy -anyone ) tell me? Alon Reuven , Israel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] 2nd Horn Not Respecting 1st
Rather than assign the misbehaving 2nd hornist to 4th, I would assign him all of my first/high horn umpa/offbeat parts (marches, etc). No better way to "bust his chops" Also, at my college, the horn professor had control over paying gigs in the region (requests for horn players came to him). Maybe a way to control things if it works the same way at your school. Could impact his wallet and therefore his behavior. If he reads this email list, the fruitful seed may already be planted. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
