RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Hello Martin, hello Mark, Who of both of you has ever played a Wagnerian opera on first chair ? Comparing the first horn part of such a big task with third (?) or the other horn parts, an average first horn player (in a good orchestra - means a good player) would take it over "with one cheek of his ass" easily & comfortly, as we say. But, and there would be "but" manytimes, this tasks are to be differentiated. As exhausting the Straussian tone poems are, nothing is compareable with e.g. Flying Dutchman Ouverture, whereafter even the strongest players are worn. But the long lasting operas as Tristan or Goetterdaemmerung have very strong demanding parts while there are also many rests on other places. And these operas are divided between two players - not an assistant & the solo, but one playing act 1 & 3, the other playing act 2, but both playing the calls in the respective other acts. Tristan is divided after act 1 and the player join the stage group for act 2. Long operas do not mean permanent playing for 4 - 5 hours. There are many rests. But they are very demanding on other places and often accumulating the demand on strength. The most demanding is the request to be full alert for a long distance and to sit in a tight pit all the time except the two intermissions. The impact on the body is quite something. Also, the acoustical impact. I know this from my long exposure to these tasks, having played Meistersinger, Goetterdaemmerung, Siegfried WITHOUT an alternating other principal on many (well paid) occasions on other places than Munich. We play Walkuere (5 hours +) without another alternating player set. How to master these tasks ? Building up strength ? Like in sports ? No, perhaps partly. But one must use his or her intelligence, listen to the other voices in the orchestra, using one´s good taste, acting unselfish most of the time. Thinking, one´s part were the most important part of the orchestra - as most younger player think nowadays - is wrong absolutely. Listen which voice might be the prominent one in the chord, listen who has the melody, etc. Think about, that you act as accompaniment most of the time. Do not hold all ff & fff at full. Show it & reduce the dynamics except on very special spots, but even there. Do not BLOW through the horn as much as you can. Do not engage in a fortissimo competition. If your part is the leading voice, let it be felt, not just by loudness, but by the character of your voice. Convince the other players by the (emotional) intensity (!!! Colours of the sound !!!) of your expression. Intelligent playing means strength. But the embouchure must be built up properly in a years long process. Intelligent practising for 2 - 3 hours is much better than wasting 5 - 6 hours of your life without gaining anything by wrong & just mechanical practising. Do not practise things you can do perfectly, just to impress your neighbours. Practise things which need improvement. So you will build up strength & confindence into yourself. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Bender Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:54 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance Hi Mark, Yes, that is what I suggest. An orchestra rehearsal is, in general, three hours long. Ideally, you want to build your endurance to a point where you can not only last the full three hours, but have some reserve to spare. There's nothing like having the confidence that comes with knowing that you have the stamina needed to maintain your playing at it's highest level for the entire rehearsal and then some. As Prof. Pizka pointed out in a recent post, if you are going to be playing some of the longer Wagner opera's such as Die Meistersinger, etc., or Strauss tone poems, and you can't play longer than two and a half hours, you will find yourself "in trouble" and struggling to make it. And believe me-- you don't want to find yourself in those circumstances. That's when the bad habits creep in-- like pulling too much with the left hand on the pinkie hook/flipper, pinching and choking. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Contact help
Hello everyone. I am trying to contact Erik Ralske. Would anyone happen to have his email address? Thank you Robert ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] EASTERN WINDS in Concert 4/7/06
Dear Colleagues, My wind quintet Eastern Winds has worked up a completely new program since our Carnegie Hall debut last October and we look forward to presenting it for the first time on April 7th at Yamaha Artist Services in New York City. I hope some of you can make the concert. - Marc Cerri ___ M.J. Cerri presents Eastern Winds in Concert The Piano Salon at Yamaha Artist Services 689 Fifth Avenue, NYC Friday, April 7, 2006 at 7:30pm EASTERN WINDS Richard Paratley, flute Katie Scheele, oboe Akari Yamamoto, clarinet Susanne Chen, bassoon Marc Cerri, horn François Nezwazky, piano Works featured include: Giulio Briccialdi - Quintet in D, Op. 124 (1875) Joseph Lauber - Quatre intermezzi (1922) Sebastian Danila - Four Movements for Woodwind Quintet (2005, World Premiere) Fritz Volbach - Quintet for Piano & Winds, Op. 24 (1902) Tickets are $15 at the door ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Hi Mark, Yes, that is what I suggest. An orchestra rehearsal is, in general, three hours long. Ideally, you want to build your endurance to a point where you can not only last the full three hours, but have some reserve to spare. There's nothing like having the confidence that comes with knowing that you have the stamina needed to maintain your playing at it's highest level for the entire rehearsal and then some. As Prof. Pizka pointed out in a recent post, if you are going to be playing some of the longer Wagner opera's such as Die Meistersinger, etc., or Strauss tone poems, and you can't play longer than two and a half hours, you will find yourself "in trouble" and struggling to make it. And believe me-- you don't want to find yourself in those circumstances. That's when the bad habits creep in-- like pulling too much with the left hand on the pinkie hook/flipper, pinching and choking. As draconian as it might sound, four hours plus per day is not impossible. Think of the analogy of the long distance runner. The endurance needed to run a marathon (and horn playing is very much an athletic pursuit!) is not gained overnight. One must follow a training plan, which gradually builds up the runner's time to a point where they can last for the whole race. Same goes for horn playing. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not something that you go out and do all of a sudden; you MUST approach the problem intelligently, pace yourself, and build up your endurance over time-- weeks, sometimes months. Barring any problems with the embouchure, it will come with time. In Philip Farkas' book, "The Art of Horn Playing" he discusses practising; if I remember correctly, he advocated at least three hours per day. Add rehearsals, band, chamber music, or whatever, and you can see that you need to have chops capable of lasting at least that long or longer. One other thing: if you think 30-35 hrs. per week is a bit much, rest assured that there are players out there who are already doing it. I quote from the first-rate book "Horn Technique" written by Gunther Schuller: "While on the subject of practising, I should like to utter a word of warning to those who propose to take the horn seriously and to make it a career. If you wish to achieve a position prominent enough to assure you the kind of livelihood you think you deserve, [following in italics] there must be some time in your student years during which you put in the six to twelve months of brutal hard work without which an enduring successful career is not possible. [end italics] This 'basic training' period is necessary not only in order to refine your playing to the highest professional level, but to build up the easily underestimated amount of resistance, both physical and mental, that the nervous tension of everyday professional playing demands. Any short cuts in this respect will sooner or later lead to trouble." (Horn Technique: Schuller, Gunther; Oxford University Press, 1976. pp.73) Sincerely, Martin Bender On 23-Mar-06, at 3:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you really recommending 30-35 hours per week or over 4 hours per day? That seems a bit much. In a message dated 3/23/06 2:53:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Tyler It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Hans has very good advice, but I supect you are looking for specific things you can do. There are two sets of etudes which, if you don't already have them, you should. They are included in the red and blue 335 studies books. When I lay off horn for awhile, daily use of these quickly gets my whole range back. The etudes are both Gallay, the "Etudes for 2nd horn", and "Etudes Brilliant". Although they present significant high register work, there is an emphasis on the low register and transitioning between the extremes. Throw in the "Unmeasured etudes", and you might even develop some extra style. As Hans points out, work on developing power and tone in the low and middle registers. Every day, you'll be amazed at how the high passages go from almost impossible to almost effortless, even though you're putting most of your time into the low and middle registers. These etudes absolutely require you to develop your own optimum embouchure. Have a good teacher evaluate and optimize your embouchure, especially for range transitions. Once you are fairly secure with your embouchure, you might consult a mouthpiece expert. From my personal experience, I recommend Scott Laskey. There are others, but Scott worked wonders for me. Please don't waste his time until you are committed to go through his entire process and follow his advice explicitly, regardless of what your own "expertise" suggests. He made me a mouthpiece with a narrower rim that greatly improved my endurance. It went against my "expertise", but he knows how the muscles and blood supply works. Your answers to his questions over the phone tell him far more than you'll ever know, but it sure feels like buying the magic beans. Haning gone through this, I finally reached my own understanding of how mouthpieces work for the individual, and why there is so much conflicting opinion. I may still be completely wrong, but so far, my own understanding has resolved every conflicting opinion I've encountered. One of the reasons it's so important to begin on a high quality (not expensive) single F horn is because your beginning horn is what you're using while you cement into your mind your personal concept of ideal horn sound, and that will only become more refined over the years. My first horn was a Reynolds piston valve single F. It was a complete embarrassment, but available. Thirty years later it returned, and I discovered it to be a really good single F, just stupid. These days, I rely on eBay for a supply of Reynolds Contempora and Conn 4D (not 14D) single F horns for my students. Tightening the bearings, a little dent work, and careful checking for leaks and small obstructions (with a reamer) will produce a professional level instrument for a couple of hundred dollars. The lessons you teach the student while preparing this instrument are worth far more than giving him something new and pretty. It's even easy to bend the thing to fit a smaller player. The advantage to these two models is that they are engineered as high quality, full range instruments, and are much smaller than the F side of a double. This allows a beginner to play on a larger mouthpiece. I always start them on a Schilke 31B, with Bach 3 and 7 as fall back if the 31B is too much. I can provide this setup to any of my few students for $100 deposit, from my own collection. The reason there is so much conflict about mouthpieces is because there is a misconception that the mouthpiece produces the sound of the instrument. In fact, the sound produced is much more a product of the players internalized concept of horn sound. I find the 31B works well for most players, is rarely associated with poor tone on any instrument, and is just big enough to force the development of strength rather than the use of pressure. On a 'big' horn it will overwhelm a beginner, who will need to play it against the resistance of a smaller instrument. The misunderstanding about mouthpieces comes from the belief that a players 'sound' is created by the mouthpiece. If you want to sound like your favorite artist, use the same mouthpiece. We all know that doesn't work. More subtly, if your concept of ideal horn sound is rich and dark, most players believe they should use a deep vee cup to achieve it. I fell into this trap. Since that was my ideal concept, and my physiology allowed me to achieve it, that's the sound I tend to get on a standard mouthpiece, but I realized the sound didn't match my expectations when I heard myself recorded. When Scott changed me from a deep vee to a shallower B cup, I was appalled at the shrillness. After a month, my conceptual tone overrode the shallow cup, and I learned how to achieve my conceptual rich, dark sound, but now with shimmery high harmonics that the shallower cup produces. Choose mouthpiece changes to allow you to do things you don't, or can't, do naturally. Done with that understanding, the changes you select
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Steve, you gave a very wise advise, but do they believe ? No. They dont believe you & they dont believe me, even we both have a long time experience in our fields. These young folks ask questions often just to confirm their own believe. They believe you only "if you tout the same horn". It is incredible silly, what they do. If you give them an advice to change a habit, they respond as if you have insulted them severely. If you tell them that things have to be acquired step by step without leaving out a single step, it is hopeless, to expect they would accept your or my advice. If you tell them, that their fatigue might come from over exposing the still weak & improper prepared embouchure to much too demanding & premature tasks, they respond in a rude & selfish manner agains as if insulted, as they know things much better than we old asses. It has become a wide epidemic within the younger generation, to know everything much better than we, but they fail more often than we did. You can listen the results during auditions of all kind. But there are some gems left. These gems listen or read most carefully what we have to tell them from our own experience handling the same problems. They implement these thoughts & use them for their own improvement & advancement. And these young people are not shy. They say their opinion frankly & we apprecciate it. But they benefit from our experience without questioning our advice over & over out from their principles or from their bad behaviour. But even that cannot hinder you & me, to preach, to keep on preaching, because a few will listen & benefit. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:49 PM To: 'The Horn List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Endurance Tyler Holt wrote: -snip- > And things seem to be deteriorating instead of improving as of late. Tyler, taking a cue from athletics might be a good idea for you here. Most competitive athletes "cycle" their training. This doesn't have anything to do with bicycling :) but rather refers to the fact that one simply cannot improve linearly forever. If more practice always meant improvement, we'd all be world-class players (and every weight lifter would be hoisting tons instead of pounds). When things get worse instead of better, it's a classic sign of the need for a rest. It could be, as others have already suggested, an injury, but it may simply be too much practice for what your various body parts are able to manage at this point in time. I suggest you take a week (or at least a few days) completely off from playing. You will likely find you feel pretty horrible the first time you pick up the horn afterwards but your skill will, if you're not injured, returning quickly. If you want to build up your endurance, then follow some of the rules athletes follow - save a maximum effort for a performance, and keep your efforts to "working hard but not all out" when you practice. And whenever you feel like you're getting worse instead of better, take a few days rest and ramp back up again afterwards to, we hope, even greater heights. There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Consistent Winning" that talks about all these things; unfortunately, it's out of print but it's still available used and I recommend it very highly. I hope that is of some help to you. Steve "amateur power lifter and amateur horn player" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Endurance
Are you really recommending 30-35 hours per week or over 4 hours per day? That seems a bit much. In a message dated 3/23/06 2:53:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Tyler It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Tyler Holt wrote: -snip- > And things seem to be deteriorating instead of improving > as of late. Tyler, taking a cue from athletics might be a good idea for you here. Most competitive athletes "cycle" their training. This doesn't have anything to do with bicycling :) but rather refers to the fact that one simply cannot improve linearly forever. If more practice always meant improvement, we'd all be world-class players (and every weight lifter would be hoisting tons instead of pounds). When things get worse instead of better, it's a classic sign of the need for a rest. It could be, as others have already suggested, an injury, but it may simply be too much practice for what your various body parts are able to manage at this point in time. I suggest you take a week (or at least a few days) completely off from playing. You will likely find you feel pretty horrible the first time you pick up the horn afterwards but your skill will, if you're not injured, returning quickly. If you want to build up your endurance, then follow some of the rules athletes follow - save a maximum effort for a performance, and keep your efforts to "working hard but not all out" when you practice. And whenever you feel like you're getting worse instead of better, take a few days rest and ramp back up again afterwards to, we hope, even greater heights. There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Consistent Winning" that talks about all these things; unfortunately, it's out of print but it's still available used and I recommend it very highly. I hope that is of some help to you. Steve "amateur power lifter and amateur horn player" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Oklahoma Horn Day
For those in Oklahoma, North Texas, Kansas, New Mexico, or Arkansas, the OU Horn Studio is hosting a Horn Day this Satuday, March 25. Our Special Guest is Jean Rife, Prof. of Horn at MIT, Longy School, and New England Conservatory. Contributing guests are Kate Pritchett (OKC Univ.), Janis South (SW OK State U.), Michelle Johnson (U. of Tulsa/Tulsa Opera) and the horn section of the OKC Philharmonic Orchestra. Events include lectures, demonstrations, and master classes specific for areas of ability. This event is open for hornists of all ages, middle school through adult. Registration starts at 8:30 AM in Catlett Music Center on the OU Campus. The event runs from 9 AM - 4:30 PM. Jean Rife will be in recital at 3 PM on Sunday in Pitman Recital Hall. Her program is Harbison's "Twilight Music," and Brahms' "Trio for Horn, Piano, and Violin." Sincerely, Dr. Eldon Matlick, Horn Professor, University of Oklahoma Principal Hornist, OK City Philharmonic 500 W Boyd Norman, OK 73019 (405) 325-4093 off. (405) 325-7574 fax Conn-Selmer Educational Artist http://ouhorns.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] All about rhythm
At 9:35 PM -0500 3/22/06, David Goldberg wrote: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4776181634656145640. I hope that the sound is coordinated with the action - I saw it come out wrong once. A lot depends on your computer. First, let the thing load before playing it. It is always nice to see a professional working. Perhaps more eye contact with the audience . . . ? Where did I hear he is practicing with horns instead of balls? Carlberg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. Skype: carlbergbmug Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Endurance
Endurance comes by the time, like in sports. In the case of horn playing, it is not muscle strength like in sports, but being resistant against the mouthpiece pressure against the lips - or better said, getting used. If you need too much muscle strength to get up to the higher notes, something is wrong with the embouchure. Practising in the high register hours & hours - in a silly manner - will build up NOTHING. Get your high notes from practising in the LOW register & benefit double, for the highh & a consistency in the low register. The worst thing is it, to grip to the stars when not prepared (same in politics !). Why practising Mozart no.4 in the 2nd year, when the embouchure is not prepared to it. And, what is so taxiing in Mozart no.4 ? The first movement until the recapitulation ? You are joking ? Or the second page ? My dear young fellow, howq will you get through Meistersinger Ouverture or Flying Dutchman Ouverture with really fff and upper middle range & sudden pp, etc. No way, my dear, no way. Go back & practise some nice etudes & some nice 5 min. solo pieces & leave the Mozart no.4 first mov. For a while until your embouchure is grown stronger. As you are not prepared - perhaps fooling around too much while practising - Mozart is too early. Try meanwhile to prepare 2nd & 3rd mov. Instead & make it perfect. Itr seems, that a lot of the young fellows complaining about endurance, do abuse their unprepared or not enough prepared embouchure by forcing things & forcing again instead of climbing up smoothly & slowly. Hornplaying is not a thing of "buy & run", it is a longer process step by step. Be patient. Prepare easier things better. As soon as you can do them perfectly, go to the next step. But do not stick to a piece longer than a week, - well, besides your etudes work & chamber music & ensemble playing. For the Mozart instructions see my special page at www.pizka.de/Sitemap.htm And scroll to the instructions. Also, see the study plan from Vienna, experienced by Roland Berger & myself & many other successful players www.pizka.de/Vienna.htm === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Bender Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:53 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Endurance Hi Tyler, It's true that endurance does come with practice. Having said this, however, intelligent practice helps even more. I'll assume you already have a solid embouchure set up. With this in mind, I suggest you secure a copy of Joseph Singer's fine book of studies entitled "Embouchure Building" and work some of the long tone routines found therein, especially the "Heavy Routine". Also, in Barry Tuckwell's book "Playing the Horn" he advocates long tones played on every note of the horn over the full range. This is not something you want to start off with, as it can be extremely tiring; it's a goal to work towards. Like a long distance runner, you have to learn to pace yourself. Try increasing your playing time by five minutes every second day; after eight days, you will have gained an additional 20 minutes, and so on with the eventual goal of 30-35 hours per week. Saturdays and Sundays included. With time and patience, you will eventually gain the stamina you need and more! Also, try not to play past the point of control; this will only lead to bad habits. Think "quality" as well as "quantity." Best regards, Martin Bender On 22-Mar-06, at 11:35 PM, Tyler Holt wrote: > Dear List, > > I am hoping you more experienced players out there can give me > some advice and perhaps some perspective. Two years ago I came back > from a two year hiatus away from the horn, and it has been a very hard > road to travel back to proficiency. I am currently in my second > semester of university and am having a difficult time building any > endurance (esp high range endurance). Specifically getting through > the first movement of Mozart 4. > For the last year I have been very consistent about practicing 3 > hrs/day. I warm up, break up my sessions throughout the day, etc. > >For the last few months I've been really working at the 1st > movement of the Mozart and feel it's near perfectexcept I can't > manage to make it through all the way. And things seem to be > deteriorating instead of improving as of late. > >Any thoughts on practicing/endurance/years required to build a > solid face would be appreciated. > >Thanks. > > Tyler Holt > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ > options/horn/embee%40magma.ca > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post
