[Hornlist] Fun on the Freeway-Listen to Your Car-NHR
Have fun listening to your car the next time on the freeway: My car: The engine produces 3 tones (possibly a 4th) The (audible)fundamental is approximately 2 octaves below middle C The next overtone is two octaves above the fundamental The second overtone is a sixth above the first overtone 65 MPH-specific pitches from high to low The second overtone is A Flat The first overtone is C Flat The fundamental is C Flat two octaves below and barely audible (or-the highest overtone could be a G# ; others B natural) The tire hum (65 mph) is approximately at an E Flat As the car is not a conical bore, there is no telling if there are additional harmonics present. It does not have a rotary engine, either. Tuning up a car engine-isn't pitch related: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
(hasn't every hornist out there done this piece at least once?) commentary is made based assuming (probably incorrectly) one instrument per part, except there are definitely two horns a) bassoon quite sharp to ensemble 90% of the time b) 1st &(2nd?) horn(s) consistently sharp on concert F; otherwise both horns in tune c) clarinet-starts out sharp w/bassoon; later begins blowing notes flatter, especially on a held-out concert F near the end of the sample. d) oboe began initial chording a bit flat; then came into tune quite well with the horns e) tone quality in horns & bassoon, warm, full; excellent articulation f) tone quality in clarinet, raw at times, woolly in low range, phrasing was sometimes present, sometimes absent g) tone quality in oboe, thin (reedy?) some good phrasing h) entire ensemble sounds moderately to well balanced exceptions: -bassoon and clarinet notes overbalance a bit- -horns' concert E Flat (held note) tends to top off the group for a few seconds-in two or more portions of sample. -overall phrasing; the group appeared to focus on some phrasings more than others- The overall impression received from the group's performance was one of homogeneity. (that is a real word - matey) ET? Well Tempered?Just Tempered? A whole *bunch* of obscure temperaments? How should I know? Homogeneous = (Equal across the board) Would this then = ET ? >Steve Ovitsky's site > http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Rachel, you are so wrong!
Fred wrote, responding to Larry: > Larry, maybe you should see someone about those > self-abusive tendencies... :-) Larry had written, about Rachel: > Incidentally, I and many others would love to play in > your horn section for an evening, and what a > whirlwind evening that would be! I just noticed this exchange and have this to say to Fred and Larry: You're wrong about Rachel. Several years ago, I joined the horn section of the Redwood Symphony for a performance of Mahler 1. Rachel was principal, and I have nothing but praise for her performance on first horn and her work as the section leader. She's a fine player and did a good job of getting the section to cohere as a unit. In addition, she (and, in fact, the entire Redwood section) couldn't have been nicer or more welcoming to me as a guest, sitting in on fourth. The rehearsals and performance were among the most pleasant musical experiences I've ever had. --John PS to Hans: Rachel was exaaggerating when she spoke of "as many horns as will fit on the stage," in the last movement of Mahler 1. The conductor did, however, follow Mahler's instructions in the score that reinforcing horns (Horner Verstarkung) should enter at rehearsal 56 (Triumphal. Nicht eilen. Pesante.) of the last movement. J Mason Charlottesville, Virginia DEMOCRACY OF SPEED, a Photo Documentary Project: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ds8s/john-m/john-m.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] What Does This Have To Do With The Price Of Bat Guano InNigeria? Is HR
>>>To show a young person how their playing compares to that of a very high >>>ranking professional is to do two things: >>>a) Make them feel better-they have something to look forward to >>>b) Make them feel worse-upon seeing the long road ahead, some give up >>>before they have begun Yes, when I was 17 I was studying with a prominent New York City player who said to me "If you want to have a family it is very tough to support one in the music business" or words to that effect. Well at 17 I believed him, only to find out years later it really didn't matter what you did unless you won the lottery. Regards, Joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 5:44 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] What Does This Have To Do With The Price Of Bat Guano InNigeria? Is HR >Rachel, you generalize too much & even you have played a lot >your aspect is different to the real pro. Pro means full >time professional, full season Hans, this is the third time you are attempting to remind me that you are a pro and I am not. I am not stupid. What you said to me has absolutely nothing to do with the other horn related things we were discussing. Phil said: "Adjust Your Environment". He meant: Fix what can be fixed to make yourself comfortable enough to avoid distraction. To show a young person how their playing compares to that of a very high ranking professional is to do two things: a) Make them feel better-they have something to look forward to b) Make them feel worse-upon seeing the long road ahead, some give up before they have begun ___ >Yes, it is possible to do the Brandenburg no.1 on the 8D. It is >possible to play it. But do think, it will sound as intended by Bach ? Who knows? More realistically, who cares? I sure don't. I have no idea what Bach really and truly *heard* when he wrote. All we have to go on are writings, recordings, word of mouth. >Playing all kind of music on just one instrument is possible, but the >result will not be conform with todays worlds expectations. Do you want to define 'today's world expectations'? >And when I mentioned "light", I had not "light music" in mind. What did you have in mind? >And I stay with my argument "the player has to adapt to the >environment", but meant size of hall, acoustics of the hall, >size of the orchestra, sound colour of the orchestra, >characteristics of the other (soloistic) instruments. It is up to the hornist to make appropriate adjustments; influencing or reacting to the environment. Your argument is good and so is mine. >But adapting ones playing style - as said above - is more >important than seating comfortably. The term "ergonomics" is derived from two Greek words: "ergon", meaning work and "nomoi", meaning natural laws. Ergonomists study human capabilities in relationship to work demands. http://www.ergonomics.org/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/joescarpelli%40earthlink.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Count me in~
Hi Bobbie: Even though it was a huge financial loss - I'll be there again! Though this year, I'll only have 1 table. I hope you understand that this is the most expensive (and the least attended) workshop of the bunch! (the south east - a huge workshop doesn't charge the exhibitors anything! - and they are a huge part of the draw for the attendees!). That being said - I do want to help this workshop grow and hope that my being there will do so. I've already specially ordered 3 horns to bring to the show. If Bill wants me to do a repair workshop (or play) I'll be happy to do so. Thanks! Ken "Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow" http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns & Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] old intonation post
Dear List, I was looking at old posts that I had put off. I wished to add my 2 cents. (TOO LATE, maybe). In the end, no matter what theory we ascribe to, it depends whether or not the conductor looks at us and pulls his ear with a mad face. (Yes, in an orchestral group, not a small chamber group) my 2 cents Debbie Wenger PS there is no "cent" key on this durn keyboard. Steve Freides says: Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I thought I'd see what everyone thinks about a specific instance. While looking at Steve Ovitsky's site, I decided to listen to this fragment: http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a short history on the horn, the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't know how else to put it. The distance between Eb and G sounds too small to my ears. My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and not the G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example to the discussion, and I am curious to hear what the experienced ensemble players among us have to say. Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] What Does This Have To Do With The Price Of Bat Guano In Nigeria? Is HR
In a message dated 6/21/06 5:45:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >Yes, it is possible to do the Brandenburg no.1 on the 8D. It is >possible > to play it. But do think, it will sound as intended by Bach ? > > Who knows? More realistically, who cares? I sure don't. I have no idea > what Bach really and truly *heard* when he wrote. All we have to go on are > writings, recordings, word of mouth. > And the instruments available to Bach at the time. Specifically the sound of those early horns and in the case of the Mass the fact that through parts of the Quoniam you are playing in the meat of the horn register and the soloist is very low in his range. Maybe someone else can say this more eloquently than I but we are not composers we don't rewrite we try to play to the best of our ability what the composer intended. we try as artists to play what was rattling around in his or head, that the composer then put on paper. Most of the "living" composers I know talk about the difficulty is not in the sounds and ideas but getting the "tunes in one's head" onto paper. I for one do care what Bach and every other composer intended and will spend the rest of my professional life doing the best I can to bring that page of music to life as the composer heard it. Debbie Schmidt Tisch Center for the Arts ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] What Does This Have To Do With The Price Of Bat Guano In Nigeria? Is HR
>Rachel, you generalize too much & even you have played a lot >your aspect is different to the real pro. Pro means full >time professional, full season Hans, this is the third time you are attempting to remind me that you are a pro and I am not. I am not stupid. What you said to me has absolutely nothing to do with the other horn related things we were discussing. Phil said: "Adjust Your Environment". He meant: Fix what can be fixed to make yourself comfortable enough to avoid distraction. To show a young person how their playing compares to that of a very high ranking professional is to do two things: a) Make them feel better-they have something to look forward to b) Make them feel worse-upon seeing the long road ahead, some give up before they have begun ___ >Yes, it is possible to do the Brandenburg no.1 on the 8D. It is >possible to >play it. But do think, it will sound as intended by Bach ? Who knows? More realistically, who cares? I sure don't. I have no idea what Bach really and truly *heard* when he wrote. All we have to go on are writings, recordings, word of mouth. >Playing all kind of music on just one instrument is possible, but the >result >will not be conform with todays worlds expectations. Do you want to define 'today's world expectations'? >And when I mentioned "light", I had not "light music" in mind. What did you have in mind? >And I stay with my argument "the player has to adapt to the >environment", but meant size of hall, acoustics of the hall, >size of the orchestra, sound colour of the orchestra, >characteristics of the other (soloistic) instruments. It is up to the hornist to make appropriate adjustments; influencing or reacting to the environment. Your argument is good and so is mine. >But adapting ones playing style - as said above - is more >important than seating comfortably. The term ergonomics is derived from two Greek words: ergon, meaning work and nomoi, meaning natural laws. Ergonomists study human capabilities in relationship to work demands. http://www.ergonomics.org/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Try the recording of Handel's Water Music and Music for the royal Fireworks by "Le Concert Spirituel" directed by Herve Niquet - Glossa GCD 921606 The tuning will probably alarm you the first time you hear it. All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg" _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Hans Pizka wrote: > Steve, this is a bad example. For me everything is just out > of tune, some notes too sharp others too low. It does not > sound as a group from VPO. Well, but this is a very old recording. This is why I'm asking. I'm trying to find things to listen to that are good examples of not-even temperament to get my ears used to things other than just the piano. I guess I will keep looking for other examples. -S- > > = > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Steve Freides > Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 3:16 PM > To: 'The Horn List' > Subject: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you? > > Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I > thought I'd see what everyone thinks about a specific > instance. While looking at Steve Ovitsky's site, I decided > to listen to this fragment: > > http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 > > Mozart, Eb major. Several nice major chords to listen to > right at the beginning. > > To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a > short history on the horn, the intonation is weird - it > sounds right but wrong, I don't know how else to put it. > The distance between Eb and G sounds too small to my ears. > My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and not > the G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. > > Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example > to the discussion, and I am curious to hear what the > experienced ensemble players among us have to say. > > Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > de > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays > computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Upcoming audition
Greetings, For those of you taking auditions...The United States Army Band (Pershing's Own) in Washington, D.C. has recently posted info for our upcoming Concert Band horn audition. Full details are on our website www.usarmyband.com. This opening is in my section--feel free to contact me off list with any questions. Jeanie Swanson ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] wisdom teeth
Dave, I remember getting my wisdom teeth out. I had to plan it just right because I was playing in a summer musical and had many other various gigs spread over the summer. I made the mistake of picking up my horn too soon...over and over again. I needed to be preparing for an audition. A week after the surgery, I tried to play and I had to be done in 5 minutes. If your mouth isn't ready for it, it'll tell you real quick. Listen to it. If you feel even a little sore back where the teeth were removed, put the horn down. It took me 3 weeks to recover because I kept trying to rush the healing along. I would recommend waiting two weeks. You COULD get away with doing it a little earlier (week or so), but then you run more of a risk of hurting yourself. Good luck! Heather "Red" Gordon - message: 2 date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:08:11 GMT from: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] Wisdom teeth out hello everyone- I just had all four wisdom teeth taken out yesterday morning. None were impacted and the surgery went quite well. I am off all painkillers only 36 hours later and feel fine, except for it being a little soar. = My question is how long should I lay off the horn? I have been told 2-7 days by the surgeon, and that is quite a range. Can playing Horn induce dry-socket? How will I know when I am good to play? = Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated from people who have done this before or any doctors out there = Thanks a lot folks, = Dave Meichle = ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] For Hans:Re:Mahler Seating2
Did your conductor have a phone conference with Gustav ? Why dont the VPO not use "as many horns as possible on stage" ? These stick weaving idiots ! Well, admitted, there are few good ones left, often to good as persons also, so not to make a career. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 8:30 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] For Hans:Re:Mahler Seating2 >Rachel, for the SEVEN horns in Mahler 1 (we do not use an >assistant) and other 8-horn-pieces we prefer sitting in two rows, as it >allows a better blending each other than sitting Hans, either way is ok. It depends on how much room we have. We only use an assistant for Mahler 1 or 2. None of the others. On Mahler 2, we had 10 horns. 2 of the offstage players were on stage on horns 7 and 8 as well. >why needing seven extra players for the finale I guess ? Is it >necessary to have it that loud ? >Would be a sign of bad taste by the conductor. For the last 75 bars because the conductor said Mahler wanted 'as many horn players as could be fit onto the stage at once'. He was not exhibiting 'bad taste'; he was just following the composer's directions according to the score. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Steve, this is a bad example. For me everything is just out of tune, some notes too sharp others too low. It does not sound as a group from VPO. Well, but this is a very old recording. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 3:16 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you? Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I thought I'd see what everyone thinks about a specific instance. While looking at Steve Ovitsky's site, I decided to listen to this fragment: http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 Mozart, Eb major. Several nice major chords to listen to right at the beginning. To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a short history on the horn, the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't know how else to put it. The distance between Eb and G sounds too small to my ears. My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and not the G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example to the discussion, and I am curious to hear what the experienced ensemble players among us have to say. Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] For Hans:Re:Mahler Seating2
>Rachel, for the SEVEN horns in Mahler 1 (we do not use an >assistant) and other 8-horn-pieces we prefer sitting in two >rows, as it allows a better blending each other than sitting Hans, either way is ok. It depends on how much room we have. We only use an assistant for Mahler 1 or 2. None of the others. On Mahler 2, we had 10 horns. 2 of the offstage players were on stage on horns 7 and 8 as well. >why needing seven extra players for the >finale I guess ? Is it necessary to have it that loud ? >Would be a sign of bad taste by the conductor. For the last 75 bars because the conductor said Mahler wanted 'as many horn players as could be fit onto the stage at once'. He was not exhibiting 'bad taste'; he was just following the composer's directions according to the score. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Intonation-How does this sound
Perhaps someone can enlighten me on an aspect of tuning that must have some effect. A piano, by its nature is tempered to make it consistent with itself. String players point out the necessity of refining the tuning to specific chords and keys being played. A brass instrument, however, is based around a geometrical harmonic progression. Simple harmonic resonance plays a part in the player feeling in tune with another brass player. We all deal with this unconsciously, but what is the mechanism going on? I've played with elementary school honor bands, and find myself missing half the notes because my instincts to be in tune have me trying to play outside the slot, and I fall of the edge -Original Message- From: Wendell Rider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:44:53 -0700 Subject: [Hornlist] Intonation-How does this sound On Jun 21, 2006, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > message: 13 > date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:16:20 -0400 > from: "Steve Freides" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > subject: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you? > > Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I > thought I'd see > what everyone thinks about a specific instance. While looking at > Steve > Ovitsky's site, I decided to listen to this fragment: > > http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 > > Mozart, Eb major. Several nice major chords to listen to right at the > beginning. > > To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a short history > on the horn, the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't > know how else to put it. The distance between Eb and G sounds too > small to > my ears. My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and > not the > G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. > > Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example to the > discussion, and I am curious to hear what the experienced ensemble > players > among us have to say. > > Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides Hi, I didn't have time to listen to this a lot of times but I was wondering what it is an example of in terms of the discussion. It doesn't say that they were using period instruments or what. Actually, I'm pretty sure that they aren't but the instruments that they do (and did) use in that group are often different than what we are used to, and are rather "historical" at times. This is "just" a 50's recording of some great artists from the Vienna Phil. and despite the great re-mastering of it, it may be that the recording technique itself got in the way of some of the finer detail too. As far as the intonation goes, it is not a good example of just or equal temperament and so i don't know what it adds to the mix on this thread. There is some definite out of tune playing there, especially in (but not limited to) the clarinet, and it doesn't seem that there was agreement on how to tune some of the more obvious chords in terms of the thirds, etc.. A lot of it just doesn't lock in when it should, even in the octaves. This is an example, however, of music that should be played with an eye toward "just" temperament. It is very tonal and there are no pianos present. Having played this piece many times with some great players, it is a fantastic "orchestration" in terms of the use of wind instruments, as Mozart was wont to do. The chords will ring if tuned properly and it is a thrill to be in the middle of it. I love the musicianship of these people and their orchestra (I have many recordings) but, in this case, the intonation is, as my young students would say, rather "random" (at least in this excerpt). Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, "Real World Horn Playing", the Summer Seminar, and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Intonation-How does this sound
On Jun 21, 2006, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 13 date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:16:20 -0400 from: "Steve Freides" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you? Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I thought I'd see what everyone thinks about a specific instance. While looking at Steve Ovitsky's site, I decided to listen to this fragment: http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 Mozart, Eb major. Several nice major chords to listen to right at the beginning. To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a short history on the horn, the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't know how else to put it. The distance between Eb and G sounds too small to my ears. My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and not the G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example to the discussion, and I am curious to hear what the experienced ensemble players among us have to say. Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides Hi, I didn't have time to listen to this a lot of times but I was wondering what it is an example of in terms of the discussion. It doesn't say that they were using period instruments or what. Actually, I'm pretty sure that they aren't but the instruments that they do (and did) use in that group are often different than what we are used to, and are rather "historical" at times. This is "just" a 50's recording of some great artists from the Vienna Phil. and despite the great re-mastering of it, it may be that the recording technique itself got in the way of some of the finer detail too. As far as the intonation goes, it is not a good example of just or equal temperament and so i don't know what it adds to the mix on this thread. There is some definite out of tune playing there, especially in (but not limited to) the clarinet, and it doesn't seem that there was agreement on how to tune some of the more obvious chords in terms of the thirds, etc.. A lot of it just doesn't lock in when it should, even in the octaves. This is an example, however, of music that should be played with an eye toward "just" temperament. It is very tonal and there are no pianos present. Having played this piece many times with some great players, it is a fantastic "orchestration" in terms of the use of wind instruments, as Mozart was wont to do. The chords will ring if tuned properly and it is a thrill to be in the middle of it. I love the musicianship of these people and their orchestra (I have many recordings) but, in this case, the intonation is, as my young students would say, rather "random" (at least in this excerpt). Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, "Real World Horn Playing", the Summer Seminar, and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] NHR Scut/Scup/Keel NHR
'Keel hauling' is a punishment involving fastening ropes to a sailor to keep him centered under the boat. He is then thrown off the bow to make his way the length of the keel. Words are important. A young man had to go to several doctors before he found one willing to cast rate him. As he was waking up in the recovery room he struck up a conversation with his neighbor and asked what he had had done. His neighbor said," I was circumcised", to which he replied, "that's the word." -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:54:10 + Subject: [Hornlist] NHR Scut/Scup/Keel NHR Lookup done in Wiki: SCUPPERS-Cabbage, you were right; it's indeed a word. SCUTTLE-sorry, what should have been said: "SCUTTLEBUTT". Definition: ___ The nautical term Scuttlebutt originally (and still) means a water fountain or water cask on a ship. However, it is now more commonly used as slang for "information" or "gossip". KEELHAUL-thanks, Paul :} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/etymology ___ SCUPPER- a drainage waterway at the edge of a deck, is drained by a pipe or, on the weather deck, a small opening in the bulwarks, leading overboard. It is called a scupper which is distinct from larger openings with hinged covers on the bulwarks, designed for relieving the ship of large quantities of water in a seaway. These are called freeing ports or wash ports.. SCUTTLE: A shaving scuttle is a shaving tool developed in late 19th century.shaped similarly to a tea pot with a very wide sprout: hot water is poured in there, and the entire scuttle is brought to the bathroom. At the top of the scuttle is a soap holder, which unlike shaving mug, have holes at the bottom, allowing water to be drained. KEELHAUL v.t. haul under keel of ship as punishment. >From: Paul Mansur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR No, to keelhaul some one is to drag a sailor, who is bound hand and foot , by means of a rope from one side of the ship under the ship, to the other side. If often resulted in drowning the sailor if done too slowly. The sailor is literally hauled under the keel of the ship. If he survived that he would be lacerated by barnacles, nails, rivets, or whatever most severely. Keelhauling was a most dire punishment in those olden days. Paul Mansur, or Mansur's Answers. (Yup, I was in the navy back in the big war.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] NHR Scut/Scup/Keel NHR
Lookup done in Wiki: SCUPPERS-Cabbage, you were right; it's indeed a word. SCUTTLE-sorry, what should have been said: "SCUTTLEBUTT". Definition: ___ The nautical term Scuttlebutt originally (and still) means a water fountain or water cask on a ship. However, it is now more commonly used as slang for "information" or "gossip". KEELHAUL-thanks, Paul :} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/etymology ___ SCUPPER- a drainage waterway at the edge of a deck, is drained by a pipe or, on the weather deck, a small opening in the bulwarks, leading overboard. It is called a scupper which is distinct from larger openings with hinged covers on the bulwarks, designed for relieving the ship of large quantities of water in a seaway. These are called freeing ports or wash ports.. SCUTTLE: A shaving scuttle is a shaving tool developed in late 19th century.shaped similarly to a tea pot with a very wide sprout: hot water is poured in there, and the entire scuttle is brought to the bathroom. At the top of the scuttle is a soap holder, which unlike shaving mug, have holes at the bottom, allowing water to be drained. KEELHAUL v.t. haul under keel of ship as punishment. >From: Paul Mansur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR No, to keelhaul some one is to drag a sailor, who is bound hand and foot , by means of a rope from one side of the ship under the ship, to the other side. If often resulted in drowning the sailor if done too slowly. The sailor is literally hauled under the keel of the ship. If he survived that he would be lacerated by barnacles, nails, rivets, or whatever most severely. Keelhauling was a most dire punishment in those olden days. Paul Mansur, or Mansur's Answers. (Yup, I was in the navy back in the big war.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Chris Mudd wrote: > To me, I agree, it doesn't sound wrong, maybe just different > from what I would want. At this point, I would start to talk > with terms like "Too bright" or talk about the "Tone" of the > chord. It sounds like it is within the range of good > intonation, but adjusting the sound for different tastes is > where we are now. Part of my reason for asking is that, if this is good, maybe I should learn to want this and not what I currently think is good intonation. This is a classic recording of some very good players, and that's why I picked it as an example. I know, e.g., that by the end of an evening at the orchestra, what sounded wrong at the beginning no longer does. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
To me, I agree, it doesn't sound wrong, maybe just different from what I would want. At this point, I would start to talk with terms like "Too bright" or talk about the "Tone" of the chord. It sounds like it is within the range of good intonation, but adjusting the sound for different tastes is where we are now. Chris "the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't know how else to put it." -- Chris Mudd Director of Bands Churchill High School Free-lance Horn Eugene, Oregon 541-688-1413 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
'Keel hauling' is a punishment involving fastening ropes to a sailor to keep him centered under the boat. He is then thrown off the bow to make his way the length of the keel. Words are important. A young man had to go to several doctors before he found one willing to castrate him. As he was waking up in the recovery room he struck up a conversation with his neighbor and asked what he had had done. His neighbor said," I was circumcised", to which he replied, "that's the word." -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 12:19:08 + Subject: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR Doesn't 'keelhaul' mean: toss a drunken or incapacitated sailor into the brig? Kjellrun: >scuppers-throw drunken sailor >SCUTTLES-pirates sink boat Cabbge: >scuppers-is it a word? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 42, Issue 24
After having mine pulled, I went into a rehearsal schedule for a musical 2 days later. I was fine except in the high register -- keep some pain pills handy if you're playing up there. On Jun 21, 2006, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 2 date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:08:11 GMT from: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] Wisdom teeth out hello everyone- I just had all four wisdom teeth taken out yesterday morning. None were impacted and the surgery went quite well. I am off all painkillers only 36 hours later and feel fine, except for it being a little soar. = My question is how long should I lay off the horn? I have been told 2-7 days by the surgeon, and that is quite a range. Can playing Horn induce dry-socket? How will I know when I am good to play? = Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated from people who have done this before or any doctors out there = Thanks a lot folks, = Dave Meichle = ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Herbert Foster wrote: > Those chords sounded fine to me--not the tenseness that even > tempering causes in me. -snip- That was my point - they don't sound even-tempered to me either, but neither do they sound wrong. Very strange for me. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Those chords sounded fine to me--not the tenseness that even tempering causes in me. However, the lower concert F sounded flat to me. The upper one was OK though. Of course I have spent years fighting choral conductors who want an even tempered third even in a capella music. Then they complain that the chord doesn't lock in with a shimmer. It can't. Herb Foster --- Steve Freides <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I thought I'd see > what everyone thinks about a specific instance. While looking at Steve > Ovitsky's site, I decided to listen to this fragment: > > http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 > > Mozart, Eb major. Several nice major chords to listen to right at the > beginning. > > To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a short history > on the horn, the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't > know how else to put it. The distance between Eb and G sounds too small to > my ears. My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and not the > G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. > > Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example to the > discussion, and I am curious to hear what the experienced ensemble players > among us have to say. > > Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't 'keelhaul' mean: toss a drunken or incapacitated sailor into the brig? It means to tie a rope to him and haul him under the keel (the bottom of the boat) and up to the other side. Chance of survival depended on how long you could hold your breath, and how badly you'd pissed everybody off. (They could retrieve you quickly or slowly, depending on their mood.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
As I recall vividly seeing in the movie version of Mutiny on the Bounty (so it's gotta be true, right??) - the old one with Marlon Brando... a sailor is tied to a rope, thrown overboard at the prow and HAULED under the KEEL, (sort of run over by the ship, except the danger is drowning, rather than being flattened into a grease spot) then pulled back up. I think, no matter how nasty the brig, it might be preferable! Kjellrun p.s., your quotes/ attributions below are mixed up - but I won't recooment either keelhauling OR the brig - not even lying in the scuppers. KjH Doesn't 'keelhaul' mean: toss a drunken or incapacitated sailor into the brig? Kjellrun: scuppers-throw drunken sailor SCUTTLES-pirates sink boat Cabbge: scuppers-is it a word? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Intonation - how does this recording sound to you?
Since we were talking about perfect pitch and temperament, I thought I'd see what everyone thinks about a specific instance. While looking at Steve Ovitsky's site, I decided to listen to this fragment: http://www.sotone.com/samples/vienna1_serenade11.mp3 Mozart, Eb major. Several nice major chords to listen to right at the beginning. To me, someone with a long history with tempered tuning and a short history on the horn, the intonation is weird - it sounds right but wrong, I don't know how else to put it. The distance between Eb and G sounds too small to my ears. My initial reaction was to want the Eb's to be lower and not the G's higher, although I couldn't tell you why. Anyway, I thought it would be nice to add a concrete example to the discussion, and I am curious to hear what the experienced ensemble players among us have to say. Steve "trying not to think about it too much, just to listen" Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
No, to keelhaul some one is to drag a sailor, who is bound hand and foot , by means of a rope from one side of the ship under the ship, to the other side. If often resulted in drowning the sailor if done too slowly. The sailor is literally hauled under the keel of the ship. If he survived that he would be lacerated by barnacles, nails, rivets, or whatever most severely. Keelhauling was a most dire punishment in those olden days. Paul Mansur, or Mansur's Answers. (Yup, I was in the navy back in the big war.) On Wednesday, June 21, 2006, at 08:19 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't 'keelhaul' mean: toss a drunken or incapacitated sailor into the brig? Kjellrun: scuppers-throw drunken sailor SCUTTLES-pirates sink boat Cabbge: scuppers-is it a word? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
Keelhaul originally meant to discipline by dragging someone under the keel of a boat. Now it also means to give someone a very harsh rebuke. Cheers, Steve Steven Ovitsky Sotone Historic Recordings www.sotone.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:19 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR Doesn't 'keelhaul' mean: toss a drunken or incapacitated sailor into the brig? Kjellrun: >scuppers-throw drunken sailor >SCUTTLES-pirates sink boat Cabbge: >scuppers-is it a word? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/sotone%40cybermesa.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Wisdom teeth out
>I just had all four wisdom teeth taken out yesterday morning. None >were impacted and the surgery went quite well. My question is how long should I lay off the horn? I have been told >2-7 days by the surgeon, and that is quite a range. Can playing Horn >induce dry-socket? Yes, it can. It did for me. You know, it won't hurt you to take a week off from playing. Recharge your batteries, let your lip and brain take a vacation. Above all, take the advice of the medical professional has given you so you don't have to take 2 weeks off by ignoring him/her. Margaret Margaret F. Dikel Horn / Librarian / Webmaster JCC Symphony Orchestra 11218 Ashley Drive Rockville MD 20852 301-881-0122 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.jccso.org ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
When you consider that most ships in the age of sail had a rather health coating of barnacles on their hull, being keel hauled involved a lot more than just holding your breath. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 7:26 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR No. The person was tied foot and hand to a rope and pulled,hauled,from port to starboard under the ship's keel. Hold your breath please. John Wilber old navy guy ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
No. The person was tied foot and hand to a rope and pulled,hauled,from port to starboard under the ship's keel. Hold your breath please. John Wilber old navy guy ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] ARRRHH Matey! NHR
Doesn't 'keelhaul' mean: toss a drunken or incapacitated sailor into the brig? Kjellrun: >scuppers-throw drunken sailor >SCUTTLES-pirates sink boat Cabbge: >scuppers-is it a word? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Brahms symphony no. 4 with Wiener Phil./Kleiber
Thank you, Anthony, for the CD. I just listened to it, following the first horn part. You are right absolutely. The high b-natural (written upbeat c2 for E-horn) is one octave higher. It can be heard clearly, and it is the horn & no overtones or trumpet. It is the typical sound of the Viennese when played high. Yes, it makes sense, because it is phrase over two measures in "alla breve" and repeated just one full step lower. Even I am against such alterations, it is very good here to do it. Please drop me your postal address, so I can put the CD into the mail tomorrow. Kindest greetings Hans PS: find one of my "live" recordings coming with your CD. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 3:22 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Brahms symphony no. 4 with Wiener Phil./Kleiber Does anyone have the recording of Brahms 4th symphony with Carlos Kleiber and the Wiener Philharmoniker on the DGG label ? 44 bars (measures) before the end of the first movement,the first horn plays a high B natural (or so it sounds to my ears),which is an octave higher than Brahms wrote.Looking at the score it is musically logical.Is it actually there,or is it an audio illusion ? I'm trying to settle an argument. Thanks ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
