[Hornlist] Common Intonation woes, Atonal......Overtone series.
Most common intonational woes are NOT caused by the poor musicianship of horn players performing atonal music. To suggest such is absurd. Nice excuse. HA I would say horrible listening skills ( see below!!!), lack of attention to pitch, and the lack of quality in many wind ensembles playing music of the 20th century, couple that with terrible composers writing for band, and you have students with no sense of the overtone series and how it relates to making sounds in unison with others. Listening skills which Wendell addressed so well, can be improved. Thinking outside the box is the key to training our next generation of players. So many players have more than one passion, and the quality suffers because of the lack of focus. Notice I said, making SOUNDS with others. Building chords, intervals, is just one part of it and NOT everything. You should be creating a palate of sound on the horn that compliments the other instruments you are playing with. Too often I see and hear someone working with a tuner, saying, well, I am in tune and try to reproduce the same spot for the problem note. That is a great example of lack of musicianship. Read Harry Partchs book, Genesis of a Music you may learn a thing or two about sound and pitch. Harry Partch spent much time in my home town of Petaluma, northern California. Matthew Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Young Artist Competition
-Original Message- From: Debbie Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think you will win a competition playing the second and third movement of Mozart 2 if this is a high school / college age group especially if it is open to all instrumentalists'. Kalmus has a lrge selection of parts at affordable prices take a look at what they have to get an idea of what is available. I would be looking at Mozart 2, Strauss or Gordon Jacob. Debbie, please say more about this - my son is only in 8th grade, and the impression we've gotten from lots of folks so far is that they want to hear him do what he does best and not particularly display technical virtuosity on the instrument. It sounds, though, that as they get older, more technically difficult pieces are expected. -S- Debbie On 5/19/07 3:46 PM, Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: michael reeedy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I would like to participate and hopefully win the 3 2007-2008 season young artist competitions in my area, but I am not sure as to what solo I should do. Please keep in mind that the piece needs to be easy to find for the orchestra parts because one is a community symphony. I was thinking a Mozart concerto( most likely no. 2 becasue the limit for the performance is 15 minutes and the second concerto is only 13.) Any advice Many auditions ask only for two contrasting movements at the first stage. For this, the second and third movements of Mozart #2 (K. 417, yes?) are very nice - my son has been auditioning with them this year, and each is about three or perhaps three and a half minutes long. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Young Artist Competition
Auditions are different then competitions. I agree play what you do best. But at some point to win a competition at a high school or college level when it is a competition for all instruments you need to have everything in place, musicality and virtuosity. Debbie On 5/20/07 10:24 AM, Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Debbie, please say more about this - my son is only in 8th grade, and the impression we've gotten from lots of folks so far is that they want to hear him do what he does best and not particularly display technical virtuosity on the instrument. It sounds, though, that as they get older, more technically difficult pieces are expected. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] C#--Db ?
I don't (Bah Humbug!). There's nothing like a chord that locks in so there are no beats. Note that Bach did NOT write for even temperament. He wrote for Well Temperament, which is between just and even temperament. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I'm with Bach--I like tempered pitch. Bill Klingelhoffer ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
In a message dated 5/19/07 3:04:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This brings up some good points. As far as the number of different F#s there might be, I'm sure you are on track with that- would you like there to be more? : ) The type of exercise you describe is one that everyone should experience at some point or other. Even though we play with pianos quite often, I think it is still important for us to be very aware of the position of our note in the chord and how we need to adjust it for the key we are in or just the chord of the moment. This is important for melodies as well as harmonies. While playing a piece with piano only, you still have to make the chords and melodies work the best you can. Of course this is for tonal pieces, but most of the best things we do are tonal. No offense to the atonal crowd, but it is easier to get away with bad pitch in an atonal situation. OK, this a gross generalization, but in the sense of players coming up now playing more atonal music with tempered pitch, the sensitivity to tonal intonation has suffered. At my seminars I have the players hold different notes while others move to change the chord, much as you describe. They are usually quite surprised by the results. And there is nothing like a horn choir doing something nice and in tune. The Bottom Line or Real World aspect to this is that we cannot assume that the note we may be holding for ten bars is going to be in tune for that whole time just because we started in tune or because it says we are in tune on our tuners. We need to learn to hear what is in tune and adjust appropriately. Exactly how many cents or whatever is not that critical- the interval or chord needs to sound right. Tempered pitch is fine for pianos and an orchestra can get away with it to a certain extent just because of the number of people playing (sad but true), but for really good intonation, we must study and practice the art of staying in the chord. Each instrument has its own issues, too. Ever try to play with a clarinet player who can't control their pitch in certain registers? We have many notes to adjust ourselves, depending on the situation. Well, there is a ton more to this, but maybe we can keep this going. Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, Real World Horn Playing, the Summer I can see the just intonation for chords but doesn't it get a little trickier on melodies. Aren't we accustomed to hearing the horizontal melody in tempered and the melody itself may sound more natural tempered. I could be way off base on this. Maybe it depends on the vertical vs. horizontal makeup on the individual notes in the melody as to how each note should be played. What happens intonation wise in chromatic modulation - just get the chord right? In the tonality, aren't the main concerns the thirds and sixths and minor seventh in V7 going to I? Ron ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Brass Chamber Music Workshop
Hi listers, I coach at a brass chamber music workshop at Humboldt State and this year they are short players for the second week, July 27 - August 2. This is a great, player friendly camp in a beautiful place, with good coaches and just nice people. You'll play all day and give a concert at night in a low pressure, supportive environment. Abilities are from intermediate to semi-pro. You can check it out at http://www.humboldt.edu/~extended/special/brass/index.html or send me a mail with any questions. Scott Hartman aka scottito ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] NY Phil open rehearsal question
Hi, I am going to be in NY next month and got tickets to an open rehearsal. Can anyone tell me how early I should be to get a decent seat (they are not reserved). Any tips would be appreciated! You can reply here or mail me directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mucho gracies, buddy, scottito ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] young artists competiiton
so I'm kinda lost...should I do a mozart or do most feel that Something like strauss would be more impressing? its a competition open to all instruments. -michael _ Change is good. See what’s different about Windows Live Hotmail. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/default.html?locale=en-usocid=RMT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_changegood_0507 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/19/07 3:04:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but it is easier to get away with bad pitch in an atonal situation. OK, this a gross generalization, but in the sense of players coming up now playing more atonal music with tempered pitch, the sensitivity to tonal intonation has suffered. I couldn't disagree more. If the sine waves don't line up, it is out of tune. Period. There is no such thing as 'tonal' or 'atonal' intonation. Equal Temperament is only a compromise so that a fixed pitch instrument can play equally out of tune with itself. This was invented so that it can be played in all keys with equal intonation issues. In fact, it is thought that the reasons that early keyboard composers developed the qualities we now identify in sonata form, (i.e. returning to the tonic key where developed musical ideas are presented once again), is because earlier tuning systems for fixed pitched instruments got progressively out of tune the further you strayed from the home key. The resolution was that much more effective when bringing the melodic and harmonically developed ideas back to the home key. I digress. Out of tune is out of tune, and it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a piece is tonal or atonal. Let's be clear on the definition of atonal. Just to clarify, atonal does not refer to a piece merely because of a dominance of dissonance. The term 'atonal' merely refers to a work that has no identifiable pitch center (such as a tonic or dominant key). Furthermore, our western diatonic scale was derived from the natural occurrence of the harmonic series, which as you know occurs in pure, or 'just' form, with no temperament. 'Dissonance' is not a synonym for 'out of tune.' Dissonant intervals, when played justly in tune, produce the same spectrum of resultant tones that you find when playing consonant intervals. Much of John Harbison's music for wind instruments just wouldn't work if the intervals were played out of tune or in equal temperament. In fact, it would completely miss the point. No, I think the insensitivity of the modern western ear to 'just' or 'pure' intonation has everything to do with the dominance of modern fixed pitch instruments (including fretted stringed instruments) and nothing to do with a lack of tonality or excess of dissonance. Furthermore, the timbre of these instruments seems to hide or make these imperfections of tuning less evident. Try listening to a brass quintet playing a Bach chorale using equal temperament. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. Listen to the same chorale on a keyboard instrument, not so bad. peace. - Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] pitch, temperament and intonation
From: Steve Burian [EMAIL PROTECTED] An F# in the key of D major might be as much as 30 cents higher than the Gb in the key of Eb minor. A good thought, Steve, but you stated it exactly backwards. A just major third is about 386 cents and a just monor third is about 316 cents. But this assumes that in each case the tonic is true to equal temperament and that each of the other ptches is tuned to tonic in just intonation. What is key here is that that same F# would change again for keys other than D Major. It seems logical that based on 12 Major and 12 minor keys (not counting enharmonics), there are no fewer than 24 different F sharps and another 24 G flats. Of course that seemed too easy to figure out, so I must be forgetting something. I have read that some early keyboards had as many as 32 divisions (individual keys) to the octave! I think any such extreme early keyoards were only theoretical constructs, but actual keyboards were built with one or two keys per octave split into two versions of the pitch. Harry Partch did construct microtonal keyboards in the last century (see google or wikipedia) and of course nowadays precise control of intonation is achievable with computers. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
I thought I might get lambasted for saying it but I will anyways: Tune to where it sounds good. You should have a decent ear as a musician so you should be able to tell, and how to get a decent ear is by closely listening to good recordings. I aced all of my aural skills classes and the only studying I did was listening to good music. Others had difficulty in the class because they never took the time to listen to music instead of just hearing it or not taking the time to hear anything at all. If you wanted to you could write math equations and do calculations until the cows come home to figure out if something is in tune or not, but when you're in a real world situation you won't have time to do that and to me listening to play in tune is going to correct things a lot quicker and make things sound so much better and cohesive then pulling out a piece of scratch paper and computing the pitch tendency in cents. Plus I like to devote some of the few brain cells I have to making whatever it is I'm playing musical. Whether its Schoenberg or Schubert, there is music somewhere and it's a musician's duty to play it. Of course it's always good to study why things are sharp and flat or why partials are going to be out of tune or how to tune chords but training yourself to think and resolve an intonation discrepancy on the spot before anyone notices it or before it has a chance to get out of tune is all the difference in the world. I guess in a roundabout way I'm saying that training yourself to become automatic is a very good thing indeed. That's just my opinion though. I could be wrong. If I am, so be it, but I just wanted to put my two pfennings in. -William ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] young artists competiiton
What's in your repertoire? -William ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
William, you said some very important things. May I ask the community once again, why they do not react to my recommendation of colours, sound colours, which are so important in music, not the mathematical calculations. With all the mathematical calculations up to fractions of cents, things sound so monotonous boring, no flesh no bones, really dead. Quite interesting. The most missing seems to me the musical basic training, so to learn hearing pitches in advance, but the right pitches. And Steve, how about a monor third ? You hit the wrong key meant minor, right. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 4:58 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation I thought I might get lambasted for saying it but I will anyways: Tune to where it sounds good. You should have a decent ear as a musician so you should be able to tell, and how to get a decent ear is by closely listening to good recordings. I aced all of my aural skills classes and the only studying I did was listening to good music. Others had difficulty in the class because they never took the time to listen to music instead of just hearing it or not taking the time to hear anything at all. If you wanted to you could write math equations and do calculations until the cows come home to figure out if something is in tune or not, but when you're in a real world situation you won't have time to do that and to me listening to play in tune is going to correct things a lot quicker and make things sound so much better and cohesive then pulling out a piece of scratch paper and computing the pitch tendency in cents. Plus I like to devote some of the few brain cells I have to making whatever it is I'm playing musical. Whether its Schoenberg or Schubert, there is music somewhere and it's a musician's duty to play it. Of course it's always good to study why things are sharp and flat or why partials are going to be out of tune or how to tune chords but training yourself to think and resolve an intonation discrepancy on the spot before anyone notices it or before it has a chance to get out of tune is all the difference in the world. I guess in a roundabout way I'm saying that training yourself to become automatic is a very good thing indeed. That's just my opinion though. I could be wrong. If I am, so be it, but I just wanted to put my two pfennings in. -William ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
Thank you. I sometimes wonder if I'm slightly autistic though because I heard of someone in England who actually pictures colors and shapes and pictures with every number all the way to something like 10,000, and with me with music I see colors and shapes and forms and they're so obvious to me. For example the key of E and Eb, although only a half step off are like night and day to me in terms of sound color. It is the same for me with Bb and B. It is hard for me to explain but it aurally they are like night and day to me. Maybe because I've heard so much? That I don't know. But I do feel familiarity breeds contempt and true knowledge comes from sustained contact with the subject matter. -William In a message dated 5/20/2007 11:31:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: William, you said some very important things. May I ask the community once again, why they do not react to my recommendation of colours, sound colours, which are so important in music, not the mathematical calculations. With all the mathematical calculations up to fractions of cents, things sound so monotonous boring, no flesh no bones, really dead. Quite interesting. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
