Re: [Hornlist] Re: Storage
The hero to many, from Milan. Shel - Original Message - From: "Carl Bangs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 4:08 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Storage > Once you reach critical mass storage is not a problem. The builder of my > house intended my studio for a living room, and it is reasonably sized, > having a large stone fireplace with a raised hearth. I will undoubtedly > leave out many objects which are kept in this room, but here are the > basics. In addition to all the stuff, the room will seat 40 people for > recitals. > > There is a 7'5" grand piano, a virginal, a pair of timpani, 3 book cases > full of scores, a 2000 year old miniature Chinese carillon, 5 violins, 2 > trumpets, 2 cornets, 2 bugles, a chest of recorders, 12 Manhasset music > stands, assorted recording equipment and mic stands, a mandolin, a lute, > and chairs. With the art works on the walls, nobody notices the more > than a dozen horns lying around. > > I have another room for an office, with the computers, tape recorders, > and l.p.'s. Yet another room serves as a shop for repairing horns, and > as a carillon practice room. My wife inhabits the family room, or the > bedroom we use for a library. The kids are grown; the dog and cat have > died. Life is good. > > Carl Bangs > Fenwick Parva > Milan, Washington > > > _______ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Dave Krehbiel
When I was a young student and Farkas and Wedgewood were the first pair at the CSO, and Dave Krehbiel played assistant, they called him "Junior." My, how time passes. Shel - Original Message - From: "Steve & Martie Tarter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Dave Krehbiel > Indeed, Dave is living near Fresno... in Reedley, to be exact. It is a > small farming community (sorry if anyone is offended by that term, as > Reeldey is bigger than it used to be, but compared to Fresno Reedley is > still pretty small). Yahoo's white page search engine gives a phone number. > > According to Jim Winter (a former IHS president and Horn Call editor, one of > my former teachers, and still a personal friend) Dave is spending > "retirement" dabbling in growing grapes. That may be true or may just be > another of Jim's great stories. > > And having mentioned Jim, if any of you care for news... I called him last > month on his 85th birthday (as I do each year). He is doing fairly well, > aside from a couple of falls recently, and now lives in a Fresno retirement > community. > > --Steve Tarter-- > Tokyo, Japan > > > > Dave Krehbiel is currently living in central California, close to > > Fresno. > > _______ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Geyer trademark
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In a message: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:08 PM Steve writes: > > So do you know the story? No, but I will inquire. Shel ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: [horn] Geyer Trademark?
- Original Message - From: "John Kowalchuk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> John, Forget the Chicken Little blurb, I slipped out of the boat. Shel > Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: [horn] Geyer Trademark?
John Kowalchuk writes: > It seems the term "Geyer" has become a generic description for a certain > design of horn. Will this mean that Holton, Yamaha, Conn (Selmer), Finke, > Hatch, Willson, DEG, Patterson, Paxman and others will have to cease using > the name to describe their products? John, I can't imagine it. We need to do a reality check. First of all, can you imagine anyone shutting Yamaha down? Can you imagine what sort of personal and financial (legal) resources and time that would require, even if one was legally entitled and wanted to do so. Second, I'm not aware that any of these horn makers imprint their horns with the logo that Carl Geyer used. They might not legally be able to do that, and perhaps never could. They also could probably not sell Carl Geyer of Chicago t-shirts. Lets suppose for the sake of discussion, and now we are really light years afield, that they could not use the Geyer name for any of their models. They would rename their Geyer model as their "G" model and be out the door. Do not suppose that they are idiots. Nor are we Chicken Little and the sky is not falling. Shel The brief answer to your question: no. ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
Carlberg says: > When I put the above two sentences together, a thought came to mind! Why > don't you ask Steve? Isn't that a good idea, not that it wasn't even better before somebody tried to rain on Steve's parade? If I were Steve, I wouldn't tell that somebody anything--particularly not after he tried to soil the soup before he knew what he was talking about--not that its our business anyway. You know anybody with more integrity than SW? I don't. Shel ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stage fright
Sure you did! Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:16 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Stage fright > Hans P wrote > > Stage fright & stage fright are not always the same. > > ** > I have always made sure that my students > understand this distinction. > > Gotta go, > Cabbage > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
I am not missing the point. I think Bob's sensitivity is well intentioned but that this conclusion is incorrect. I do not say so casually. Trademarks, patents, and copyrights (as in printed matter) are different from one another as to the rights obtained by the owners thereof, and the consequent protections afforded. If there are any intellectual property or patent attorneys on the list they might weigh in. Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark? > In a message dated 4/24/2004 11:12:15 AM Central Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You might be missing Bob`s point. If someone patents the name Geyer, no maker > will be able to use that name in association with their own instrument > without paying a royalty.For instance, Holton, Yamaha, Conn, and custom makers will > not be able to refer to their horns as a Geyer style horn without paying for > that privilege. > I`ve heard that John Lennon copy righted "Happy Birthday" and that is why > chain restaurants sing those hokey birthday songs instead of Happy Birthday". > Wes Hatch > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
As an addendum, I think you are off the mark. The trademark is irrelevant to how anyone makes their horns. This is an application for a trademark not a patent, isn't it? Shel - Original Message - From: "Robert Losin" Subject: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark? > it appears to me that the name of Geyer has become synonymous > with a type of horn wrap, and it has come into public usage by many makers. > > Bob Losin > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.663 / Virus Database: 426 - Release Date: 20-04-04 > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
By way of perspective, in his time Carl Geyer was famous for his horns,
their sound and how they played, not their layout. He was also a repairman
for horns and other brass instruments. For example, he worked on Arnold
Jacob's tubas.
Did I know him personally? Did he make horns for me and friends of mine
(including people on this list)? Of course.
Shel
- Original Message -
From: "Robert Losin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Hornlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: [Hornlist] Geyer Trademark?
> {sent to both hornlists}
>
> This information was sent to me by a colleague, and I thought that it
> might be interesting to see what your opinions on the matter might be. It
> seems that a Chicago hornmaker is attempting to get the name "Carl Geyer,
> Chicago" trademarked. What this person wants to do with this name
remains
> unclear, but it appears to me that the name of Geyer has become synonymous
> with a type of horn wrap, and it has come into public usage by many
makers.
>
> Bob Losin
>
> Below is the information about the trademark application:
>
> >The examining attorney has completed his final review of the
> >application and it will be published in the Federal Register for
> >opposing comments. The following link will take you to the
> >application.
> >
> >http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78250410
> >
> >Comments (opposition) should be sent to:
> >
> >David C. Reihner, Examining Attorney
> >Commissioner for Trademarks
> >2900 Crystal Drive
> >Arlington, VA 22202-3514
> >
> >Be sure to reference the application serial number:
> >
> >78250410
> >DIV
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.663 / Virus Database: 426 - Release Date: 20-04-04
>
----
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Book on stage fright and mental aspects of playing
Are you suggesting that Clevenger suffered from stage fright? Is that bad copy or did you fall off the couch, or the page? Shel - Original Message - From: "Michael I. Goode" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:10 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Book on stage fright and mental aspects of playing Dear Hornplayer members, If you ever have had trouble with stage fright or the mental aspects of playing, this book has helped hundreds of brass players already. See: www.trumpetworkspress.com I had terrible stage fright in 1994 and this book was the reason I no longer have it. Dale Clevenger has a copy. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] attacked by a roomful of sedated turtles?
Too close to home? Shel - Original Message - From: "Bear Woodson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:37 PM Subject: [Hornlist] attacked by a roomful of sedated turtles? > > message: 4 > > date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:26:47 -0500 (EST) > > from: David Goldberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > subject: [Hornlist] Speaking of church music > > > > I recently stumbled upon Russian Orthodox > > Choral music. If you know the genre, you know > > that a lot of it is constructed of very lush, slowly > > morphing thick chords sung by large choirs that > > can produce a euphoric feeling not unlike floating > > in molasses or getting attacked by a roomful of > > sedated turtles. > > WHAT has he been smoking? > > > Bear Woodson > Composer in Tucson, Arizona, USA > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] vibrato and Myron Bloom
What technical shortcomings did Brain have? Shel - Original Message - From: "David Jewell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "horn groups" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "horn list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: [Hornlist] vibrato and Myron Bloom . Dennis Brain may have had technical shortcomings > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Opinionated Advice On eBay
Manners, Capt. P. S. - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:55 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Opinionated Advice On eBay You did it again !! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 3:31 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Opinionated Advice On eBay I hit the send button before cutting out the excess. Sorry. Shel - ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] 100 hornist
Max Pottag used to do this in a big way in the mid-late fifties, in Chicago (at least). He may have had 500 or more horn players in a single room (a big hotel ballroom), and the circular balcony area (at least once) filled with fanfare trumpets. It was great. And if you were not playing, you and your horn resonated with what was being played. I was a kid but remember it clearly. Our esteemed colleague David Goldberg may as well have played one of these. Shel - Original Message - From: "la.corniste" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 12:22 PM Subject: [Hornlist] 100 hornist 100 french-horn in a big concert in Monceau sur Sambre Belgium look at http://www.french-horn.be and click on Monceau ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Opinionated Advice On eBay
I hit the send button before cutting out the excess. Sorry. Shel - Original Message - From: "Jay Sewell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 3:09 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Opinionated Advice On eBay > > date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 13:47:19 -0500 > > from: Alan Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > subject: [Hornlist] Opinionated Advice On eBay > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Some months back, I sold off a surplus B-flat single horn via that famous > > world-wide cyber marketplace, eBay. In the eBay item description, I > > included the following advice to potential buyers: > > > > "This is not a horn for beginners. Any student learning to play horn as a > > beginner should always get started on a single horn in F, whether > switching > > to horn from some other instrument or starting out on horn as the > student's > > very first instrument. Starting on an F single horn is important not only > > to keep matters simple for the beginning player, but also so the student > > will form the correct concept of how the horn is supposed to sound, how it > > is supposed to respond up & down the scale, the basics of how it works, > the > > fundamental orientation & response of the horn's characteristic range & > > voice, etc. After an appropriate degree of progress, the horn student > will > > be ready to 'graduate' from a single horn in F to a double horn in F & > > B-flat. Some advanced students (& you know who you are) will be able to > > benefit from occasionally using a more specialized instrument like a > single > > horn in B-flat. To repeat: This horn is not for everybody, & definitely > > not for beginners. If you are ready to try branching out from double horn > > to more specialized equipment for occasional use, here is an opportunity > to > > do so without spending too much money." > > > > Even after all that explicit advice, it turned out that the winning bidder > > was buying the horn for a beginning player. So it goes. > > > > -- Alan Cole, rank amateur > > McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. > > > > > I've been trying to resist replying here for two days now, but I can't any > longer. > > This is pretty heady "advice" from someone who constantly refers to himself > as a "rank amateur". Advice is advice, and opinions are opinions (and yes, > everyone is entitled to their own), but this (in MY opinion) goes a little > over the top. If it weren't for the phrase "opinionated advice" in the > subject header, I would have taken the above as a statement of accepted > fact, and not just opinion. > > Here are a few real facts to consider: > > I started as a rank beginner (12 yrs old) on a Conn single Bb, but was > handed a beginning band book for Bb trumpet and was told to play it with > trumpet fingerings. Hence, when the F-Horn concert music was passed out > later, we had to learn to "transpose" to F. Of course, the "new fingerings" > just became natural after a while and it didn't feel like transposing. After > a year, I got my first double, and had already been looking ahead in a real > horn book at the F fingerings, so that before long I was perfectly > comfortable playing with either the F or Bb fingerings. The upshot here is > that I never had to spend any time learning the double horn "alternate > fingerings" They were already ingrained from my experience using a single > Bb horn. To this day, I can play using either side of the horn without > thinking of it as regular vs alternate fingerings. Plus, without knowing it > at the time, we already learned our "circle of fifths". > > As for not learning the proper concept of the F-Horn sound (whatever that > means), I can only say nobody ever told me I had to change concepts from > what I originally learned, so that I would play with the "correct" concept. > To this day, and after numerous 6D's, 8D's, Kings, Holtons, Kruspes, > Seraphinoff's, and Lawson's, nobody has ever complained that I don't play > with a "characteristic" horn sound. So much for THAT theory. > > So, in my OPINION, and based on my own experience, it doesn't matter > whether you start on a single F or Bb. These are just two different paths > that lead to the same goal, but perhaps each have their own pros and cons. > I, for one, am glad the ebay buyer ignored the well-intended pontification. > Maybe they already knew better? > > Ready for the flames. > > Jay Sewell, not-so-rank amateur > Granbury, Texas > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Opinionated Advice On eBay
based on my own experience, it doesn't matter > whether you start on a single F or Bb. These are just two different paths > that lead to the same goal, but perhaps each have their own pros and cons. > I, for one, am glad the ebay buyer ignored the well-intended pontification. > Maybe they already knew better? > > Ready for the flames. > > Jay Sewell, not-so-rank amateur > Granbury, Texas > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Happy Birthday Hans!
Me too. Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Happy Birthday Hans! > Here's wishing a very happy birthday to Hans> > - Steve Mumford > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn measles
I believe Simichrome, as recommended by DaveWeiner, may be gentler to the horn than Brasso. Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horn measles > In a message dated 2/21/2004 3:01:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >> > Unless the spots are etched into the brass so you can feel them with a fingernail, there should be no problem. A little Brasso should remove them. ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven
I confess that I have been sharing much of our correspondence, and some from others on the net with a friend who is a lawyer and an oboist. (He said he never became a horn player because they need to breathe too often) He said to me last nite (I paraphrase): Your man Pizka is a lawyer--that is what we do when we have a client who has said or done something to put himself in a bind--we take a set of facts not to our liking and turn them around and around, look at them from every angle and light, then we nudge them a little here and there, mute the ones that aren't favorable and highlight the one's that are, we fill in the holes with versions we like, speculate in the flexible parts and assure our listeners (opposing lawyers, judge or jury etc) that our experts are the most knowledgable and experienced about this and that, and voila, we have often wriggled our guy out of the brambles and he on his way. In the end we try to refine our story so that it is as simple as possible. Never mention the facts that don't fit. If they come up, dismiss, disdain or belittle them, or question who provided them. In the words of your guy--you know nothing and your mother can't play after beats. They usually come out with most of their skin in tact. Shel PS Since you apparently have a review of the original performance we would all be enhanced if you would scan it in and share it with us on the net. There's no need to translate. And it's good to see in the original. Those who can't translate will scramble to get it done. Thayer's bio of B is, of course, in German, and I'm sure you have a copy. - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:06 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven You still have not understood. You still have no idea about professional life on stage. Such things as in the 18 April 1800 concert happen as following: Beethoven had a roughly written (or not) sonata for piano for the rehearsal. Beethoven played it for Punto, he remembered what he had heard. Punto showed him his style for the opening, the simple signal. O.K. let´s do it. Listen, you come in as usual, you know the form, right, let me play the interlude. After that we do the romantic middle , after that the horn adds some flavour, right, just follow me, etc.etc. At the end, you make a big thing with the horn, yes. Some semitone things in the Adagio, well keep attention, as we will reach the climax in the last movement; I will do a big long run, do a trill above so you can wait for me. O.K. Let´s do it together. No problem at all, not for Punto. There was no stealing any melodies, as all were logical & taken from some material of the sonata. And, do we know what they played in the concert & how different the horn part was, when written down finally before going to be published ? You , Shel, yes I come personal, you know just written text to be executed. You seem to miss not just knowledge of actual musician life but also missing enough phantasy to make up any imagination, what happen. Nor did Sawallisch, nor did I say, that Punto came to the concert (well he was present & did not just drop in into his own concert) with a written horn part. How could he come without the written text of the sonata ? These genius players & musicians could use their memory much better perhaps than most would imagine today, music professors included. But there are still some musicians out today, who can write down from memory full concertos or other longer pieces. Few, but they are there. Is this so difficult to understand or too hard to believe ? === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:01 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven Hmmm. Let's take stock of where we are. We started with the Sawallish assumption, which has been logically ruled out, because it required the existence of the piano part as a finished item before the horn part was written. Prof. Pizka then provided the spinning theory--they spun the piece together. Is it possible? sure. It is likely, I don't think so, for various reasons. But to my mind, the most cogent contribution in deciding if B most likely wrote the horn part, or not, is that of Professor Thompson of our list: That Beethoven would never have claimed ownership of music that was not his. Not his style. Nor did B, to my knowledge, ever state or insinuate that the horn part was another's. Where are the Punto letters claiming that B stole the horn part from him? I never heard of such things. I know of no fact or claim by anyone during B's lifetime or to date that he took another's work and claim
Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven
without an assistant & without another horn player to take over act no.3. Franz Strauss played all rehearsals & all performances that year. All with his knife sharp mouthpiece (rim of 2 mms). Yes, he got some difficulties fingering the A-alto parts in the 2nd finale, because he used his usual Bb-horn. But that was not the point. He just flipped out because of the many consecutive rehearsals, the many repeats, he was simply fed up with Wagner. So he shouted back to one of Wagners sarcastic comments (we have to endure such often, believe me.) And, dear Shel, I doubt that you have ever seen the Mastersinger first horn part. Otherwise you would not say such silly things about sight reading. Or do you belong to those many players, who even have to practise after beats just because they are in a transposition ??? And a last word, indeed, there are many soloists out in the field, who are "spinning" a lot, one can hear in their "ueberkandidelt" (mannerism) playing. They just want to make the piece sound different than others did before, just because of that simple reason. I am just happy, if I sound like XY famous soloist of the past. My only stamp on it is my personal tone. That´s it. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 5:52 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven This is certainly a very different story than the Sawallish version, with which all of this began. Are you saying I remembered Thayer incorrectly, or that Thayer got it wrong? What is the source from which you repeat that it was Punto's concert, and the rest that follows? We all know about sight reading and spinning, and Straus Sr.'s comments about Til when the part was first put in front of him. And he was a great horn player, and full of fire, having even reputedly shouted Wagner off the stage at one point. But you say that they (B & P) just spun it out together. I know world class players who take performance of the Sonata quite seriously, and they can all play the notes. Its the music that concerns them, and the responsibility. And I don't think that they are out there just spinning. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:19 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven We all know that Punto played the solo part at the premiere of the Sonata op.17 by Beethoven, and Beethoven played his piano part by himself. But who gave the concert or as it was called "musical academy" ? It was PUNTO, who gave the concert, but Beethoven participated, not the opposite way. Beethoven was known in Vienna as an excellent pianist, somewhat eccentric & had his first symphony premiered few days earlier, but Punto was famous already, a legend of a horn player, famous all over Europe then. And both had met for a rehearsal before, - nothing unusual for two professional musicians. And professional musicians have no problems to improvise, may it be for the seating or standing on stage, may it be regarding the program or may it be regarding a certain piece. Things change at premieres according to the needs of the soloist or accompanist, all things well known with the professional community, but may be less known in the mere academic circles. My Goodness, are you (on the list) far off the affaires often. Are you living inside an ivory or crystal tower ?? Imagine the situation in 1800, think about the available pitches on the hand horn , think about the minimum use of the right (bell) hand, look at the horn part again, and find a lot of just so-so accompaniment or addition to the main (piano) part. Assumed, they met the day before the concert, they agreed about the main melodies, they all knew the classic form of a sonata - both were quite firm in musictheory, or ? - both knew the rules of progressions or talked it out, voila, they began the creation during the rehearsal. Every of the two had to take up his partners "golden ball" & and spin the thread forward. Nothing unusual, absolutely. Musicians of that time, special members of so called "harmoniemusiken" had to improvise often (for money) to make a decent living. So it was not any problem. Those, far off living from playing music, find it difficult, very difficult, to understand how they did then (and do now). I repeat again, it is a big difference between scholastic (academic) & practical live. Many things, usual tasks for the professional players, seem very, very problematic or even impossible for theorists or those from the teaching (only) fields. Sorry, to say such, but it is a fact with very few exceptions. Just quoting books & essays or dissertation, which quote each othe
Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven
And what about Thompson's insights about the unlikliness of Beethoven taking credit for something he not do, and Punto going along with the program? Tax free. Did Punto just invite B to show up and write a tune for him, and P would work out his own part? For me, it's pretty hard to imagine even in hindsight. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:19 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven We all know that Punto played the solo part at the premiere of the Sonata op.17 by Beethoven, and Beethoven played his piano part by himself. But who gave the concert or as it was called "musical academy" ? It was PUNTO, who gave the concert, but Beethoven participated, not the opposite way. Beethoven was known in Vienna as an excellent pianist, somewhat eccentric & had his first symphony premiered few days earlier, but Punto was famous already, a legend of a horn player, famous all over Europe then. And both had met for a rehearsal before, - nothing unusual for two professional musicians. And professional musicians have no problems to improvise, may it be for the seating or standing on stage, may it be regarding the program or may it be regarding a certain piece. Things change at premieres according to the needs of the soloist or accompanist, all things well known with the professional community, but may be less known in the mere academic circles. My Goodness, are you (on the list) far off the affaires often. Are you living inside an ivory or crystal tower ?? Imagine the situation in 1800, think about the available pitches on the hand horn , think about the minimum use of the right (bell) hand, look at the horn part again, and find a lot of just so-so accompaniment or addition to the main (piano) part. Assumed, they met the day before the concert, they agreed about the main melodies, they all knew the classic form of a sonata - both were quite firm in music theory, or ? - both knew the rules of progressions or talked it out, voila, they began the creation during the rehearsal. Every of the two had to take up his partners "golden ball" & and spin the thread forward. Nothing unusual, absolutely. Musicians of that time, special members of so called "harmoniemusiken" had to improvise often (for money) to make a decent living. So it was not any problem. Those, far off living from playing music, find it difficult, very difficult, to understand how they did then (and do now). I repeat again, it is a big difference between scholastic (academic) & practical live. Many things, usual tasks for the professional players, seem very, very problematic or even impossible for theorists or those from the teaching (only) fields. Sorry, to say such, but it is a fact with very few exceptions. Just quoting books & essays or dissertation, which quote each other like in a circle ... === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 3:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven I remember hearing the story about the Beethoven sonata was that the Horn part was written down, but the Piano part wasn't completed. Beethoven had to give a performance of the piece and didn't have a piano part by then so since he was accompanying he just improvised the part on the spot. Who was the horn player who first performed it? -William In a message dated 2/12/2004 1:44:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Do we really know if the first performance &the two next performances, > all by Beethoven &Punto, were the same music always. ? Or were they > almost the same but not exactly ? So to be played using a sketch &some > improvisation, but Beethoven wrote it down later ??? > > Would answer all questions. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven
This is certainly a very different story than the Sawallish version, with which all of this began. Are you saying I remembered Thayer incorrectly, or that Thayer got it wrong? What is the source from which you repeat that it was Punto's concert, and the rest that follows? We all know about sight reading and spinning, and Straus Sr.'s comments about Til when the part was first put in front of him. And he was a great horn player, and full of fire, having even reputedly shouted Wagner off the stage at one point. But you say that they (B & P) just spun it out together. I know world class players who take performance of the Sonata quite seriously, and they can all play the notes. Its the music that concerns them, and the responsibility. And I don't think that they are out there just spinning. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:19 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven We all know that Punto played the solo part at the premiere of the Sonata op.17 by Beethoven, and Beethoven played his piano part by himself. But who gave the concert or as it was called "musical academy" ? It was PUNTO, who gave the concert, but Beethoven participated, not the opposite way. Beethoven was known in Vienna as an excellent pianist, somewhat eccentric & had his first symphony premiered few days earlier, but Punto was famous already, a legend of a horn player, famous all over Europe then. And both had met for a rehearsal before, - nothing unusual for two professional musicians. And professional musicians have no problems to improvise, may it be for the seating or standing on stage, may it be regarding the program or may it be regarding a certain piece. Things change at premieres according to the needs of the soloist or accompanist, all things well known with the professional community, but may be less known in the mere academic circles. My Goodness, are you (on the list) far off the affaires often. Are you living inside an ivory or crystal tower ?? Imagine the situation in 1800, think about the available pitches on the hand horn , think about the minimum use of the right (bell) hand, look at the horn part again, and find a lot of just so-so accompaniment or addition to the main (piano) part. Assumed, they met the day before the concert, they agreed about the main melodies, they all knew the classic form of a sonata - both were quite firm in music theory, or ? - both knew the rules of progressions or talked it out, voila, they began the creation during the rehearsal. Every of the two had to take up his partners "golden ball" & and spin the thread forward. Nothing unusual, absolutely. Musicians of that time, special members of so called "harmoniemusiken" had to improvise often (for money) to make a decent living. So it was not any problem. Those, far off living from playing music, find it difficult, very difficult, to understand how they did then (and do now). I repeat again, it is a big difference between scholastic (academic) & practical live. Many things, usual tasks for the professional players, seem very, very problematic or even impossible for theorists or those from the teaching (only) fields. Sorry, to say such, but it is a fact with very few exceptions. Just quoting books & essays or dissertation, which quote each other like in a circle ... === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 3:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] sight-reading Beethoven I remember hearing the story about the Beethoven sonata was that the Horn part was written down, but the Piano part wasn't completed. Beethoven had to give a performance of the piece and didn't have a piano part by then so since he was accompanying he just improvised the part on the spot. Who was the horn player who first performed it? -William In a message dated 2/12/2004 1:44:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Do we really know if the first performance &the two next performances, > all by Beethoven &Punto, were the same music always. ? Or were they > almost the same but not exactly ? So to be played using a sketch &some > improvisation, but Beethoven wrote it down later ??? > > Would answer all questions. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata
Of course you are right. Sight reading was done then as now. And now we expect a 12 year old with a bit of talent and some practice to knock off a version of Til. But tell us just what was it that Strauss Sr., reportedly a great player, and who once reputedly shouted Wagner off the stage, said of the lick after his first encounter therewith. And would you believe it, but I know world class players who take performance of the Beethoven quite seriously. And they can all play the notes. Its the music. And the responsibility. And even then there are occassional clams. But you know there is a bit of a perplexitity. If Beethoven performed the Sonata for the first time with Punto, and had but a few written notations for himself to play from, just what did Punto rely on if it was he who wrote the horn part, particularly in time for the evening performance. Did Beethoven just rumble through the piano part for him, and that was enough. If Beethoven had already written it out where is the evidence of that? Lots to speculate about, it seems to me. I am, however, disappointed that you would gratuitously direct unkind remarks toward me. I have gained much from your comments on the list and am determined to overlook the lapse in gentlemanly conduct. Whether I am a great musician or less than a great musician (or horn player) is of no import to respect. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:35 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata Shel, playing the Beethoven Sonata without a chance to practice before, a everyday task that period. The text is very, very simple, just very few spots for the right hand technique. Just your comment on sight reading classifies you. Sight reading simple text as the sonata is something, professional musicians do not even talk about. The music speaks for it self & things (expression etc.) happen while playing. You seem to be far away from your target as a musician. Sorry. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:41 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata Nothwithstanding that Punto was a very great player, and probably could sight read quite well, particularly because he was also a violinist (where the music can really move and jump) B might have felt it rude to overtax the relationship with something that took some real study, given that the playing was that day. And who knows how well he knew P. Anyway that end of the conjecture is pretty endless. Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata > I think you're absolutely right to say that Beethoven > could have come up with music in the style of Punto. I > would think it unlikely, however, for two reasons. > First, the general impression I get of the genesis of > the Sonata is that it was a rush job. Beethoven didn't > have time to write out a piano part, yet he took the > time to compose a horn part in the style of Punto? > Second, why would Beethoven want to write something in > such an uninteresting style? Again, look at what he > was capable of writing for the horn. I've often > thought that if Beethoven's name weren't attached to > the Sonata and Punto's was, horn players wouldn't touch > it. Punto cranked out a LOT of music for the horn. If > the horn part to the Sonata is so endearing, why do we > ignore everything else Punto wrote? > > The cello version didn't come first. > > Eric James > On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:58:56 -0600, "skirshner" wrote: > > > As to a subsequent comment, by others, that the horn > > part is in Punto's, not > > Beethoven's style, it is virtually unthnkable that > > Beethoven could not as it > > pleased him write in Punto's syle; and might do so to > > make Punto more > > comfortable in perofrmaning the Sonata with little > > rehearsal. B had > > certainly been known to improvise on another's style > in > > improvisational > > "playoffs." > > > > A second question arises out of this exploration. If > > the horn part is > > dictincly in Punto's style, why would the cello > version > > come first? > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.
Re: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata
Nothwithstanding that Punto was a very great player, and probably could sight read quite well, particularly because he was also a violinist (where the music can really move and jump) B might have felt it rude to overtax the relationship with something that took some real study, given that the playing was that day. And who knows how well he knew P. Anyway that end of the conjecture is pretty endless. Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata > I think you're absolutely right to say that Beethoven > could have come up with music in the style of Punto. I > would think it unlikely, however, for two reasons. > First, the general impression I get of the genesis of > the Sonata is that it was a rush job. Beethoven didn't > have time to write out a piano part, yet he took the > time to compose a horn part in the style of Punto? > Second, why would Beethoven want to write something in > such an uninteresting style? Again, look at what he > was capable of writing for the horn. I've often > thought that if Beethoven's name weren't attached to > the Sonata and Punto's was, horn players wouldn't touch > it. Punto cranked out a LOT of music for the horn. If > the horn part to the Sonata is so endearing, why do we > ignore everything else Punto wrote? > > The cello version didn't come first. > > Eric James > On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:58:56 -0600, "skirshner" wrote: > > > As to a subsequent comment, by others, that the horn > > part is in Punto's, not > > Beethoven's style, it is virtually unthnkable that > > Beethoven could not as it > > pleased him write in Punto's syle; and might do so to > > make Punto more > > comfortable in perofrmaning the Sonata with little > > rehearsal. B had > > certainly been known to improvise on another's style > in > > improvisational > > "playoffs." > > > > A second question arises out of this exploration. If > > the horn part is > > dictincly in Punto's style, why would the cello > version > > come first? > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata
I find you response fascinating, and would really like to be able to make direct contact, by some modality, with your cellest friend. Is this possible? As to a subsequent comment, by others, that the horn part is in Punto's, not Beethoven's style, it is virtually unthnkable that Beethoven could not as it pleased him write in Punto's syle; and might do so to make Punto more comfortable in perofrmaning the Sonata with little rehearsal. B had certainly been known to improvise on another's style in improvisational "playoffs." A second question arises out of this exploration. If the horn part is dictincly in Punto's style, why would the cello version come first? - Original Message - From: "tthomp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 3:46 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Beethoven Sonata > I am no musicologist and so cannot swear that the following is true. But I > am told this by a cellist friend of mine who wrote his dissertation on the > subject at a very reputable school, so I assume that it is correct. If anyone > out there has verifiable contradictions, I would appreciate knowing it. > Because this is the spiel I give when I teach and play the piece. > > It's interesting to note that the horn sonata was not published immediately > after its first performance. It was originally published a few months after > the first performance with the solo part for cello, not horn. It was a matter > of a year or more, I think, before a horn version was published. If you look > at the cello version, you will notice subtle but still signifigant differences > in > articulations, dynamics, etc.. I have tended to, over the years, refer to the > cello part as much as to the horn part for interpretation. It is, after all, > early > Beethoven and salon music. I think one can justify plenty of freedom of > interpretation. > > Concerning the piece having been originally designated as a "sonata for > piano with horn accompaniment", it was probably actually designated a > "sonata for piano with horn obbligato". This was a very common > designation for such works at that time. It might, at one time, have meant > that the solo instrumental part was optional. But by Beethoven's time I > would doubt that to be the case. > > Dr. Timothy F. Thompson, Professor of Music http://www.uark.edu/depts/uamusic/html/Thompson_Timothy.htm > MB 340, Music Building > Department of Music > University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, AR 72701 > (479) 575-5762 > Principal Horn, North Arkansas Symphony http://www.nasymphony.org > Lyrique Quintette http://uark.edu/ua/lyrique/index.htm > Boston Mountain Brassworks > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata
sorry--hit the wrong button. - Original Message - From: "skirshner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata > My Friend, > > You misunderstand me. I do not oppose the wisdom of Sawallish, or > anyone else. I merely wished to share and perhaps enrich (which is as they > may or may not perceive it) my colleagues and companions on the list with > another point of view (which I believed likely correct, and said > "apparently" written) as I have been so enriched--by Thayer and others, > including Sawallish (through you). Surely you do not casually demean Thayer. > It is not important to me, personally, whose hand the Sonata comes from, or > is it likely we will ever for certain know that fact. The Sonata is the > sonata. We share on the list whatever knowledge, insight, culture and > experience we might have, do we not? My reply was intended as nothing more > than that. > > Shel > - Original Message - > From: "Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:04 AM > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata > > > Why do you oppose the knowledge of approved well known musicians & > musicologists ? Have you been there in 1800 at the Kaerntnertortheater > in Vienna ? No, you have not. But you should believe those who know the > style of both composers much better perhaps than you will ever know, as > both have easy access to the whole oeuvre. By the way, the autograph of > op.17 was preserved here in Munich, but in private hands, so it got > destroyed by allied bombers in 1944. > > = > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of skirshner > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:02 PM > To: The Horn List > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata > > Beethoven himself apparently wrote the horn part to the Sonata. > > I can not locate my copy of Thayer's biography of Beethoven (english > translation) (to confirm my memory) and have not read in many years the > passages I now refer to, in paraphrase: Beethoven was scheduled to > participate in a musical performance. He learned that Punto was to > arrive in > town the evening before the performance. Beethoven met with Punto when > he > arrived and asked if he would participate in the performance the next > day, > that Beethoven would write something for him. Punto agreed, asking when > his > part would be ready. Beethoven promised it for noon the next day, and > it > was thereafter written and delivered as promised, and the two rehearsed > it > with Beethoven having written for himself but a few notations (as to > what > constituted the piano part). They peformed it that evening and > thereafter > took it on the road, in current terminology. One performance was > reviewed in > part as follows: We all know of the great Giovanni Punto, but who is > this > Herr Beethover? > > Shel > > - Original Message - > From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:35 AM > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata > > > The Birdalone publication is a reprint not a transcription. Yes, you are > correct with your assumption. The Krufft & the Beethoven Sonatas are > rather piano sonatas with an obligato horn part. That was the usual way > then. And the piano parts are rather challenging as both composers were > extremely good pianists. > > I had discussed the Beethoven Sonata with Wolfgang Sawallisch, and he > assumed that the horn part were not by Beethoven himself but by Giovanni > Punto (J.V.Stich), just set atop of the piano part. So it became a > combination-composition by a famous author plus another famous > co-author. One has to remember that the opus number 17 reflects to a > rather early composition by Beethoven. > = > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 9:52 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata > > Hans, I heard somewhere that this piece was originally a sonata for > piano and > horn accompaniment and not a sonata for horn and piano accompaniment. > Is > that true? > > Also I think Birdalone music has another transcrip
Re: [Hornlist] Scams LOL!!! Chapter Two
You are correct, of course. More importantly, you are charming. (just kidding) Shel - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Scams LOL!!! Chapter Two > Here is the reply from Mr. Smitth and my reply to him. We'll see if he > writes back on this! > >> Bottom line, my terms or no horn for you. Again, CASH US MONEY or DIRECT > WIRE BANK TRANSFER (arranged by my bank) from you, your client, your shipping > agent, your grandmother, your pet goat, I don't care who. > > I don't know what it is like in the UK but here in the USA, MONEY DOES THE > TALKING. > > Thank you. > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata
My Friend, You misunderstand me. I do not oppose the wisdom of Sawallish, or anyone else. I merely wished to share and perhaps enrich (which is as they may or may not perceive it) my colleagues and companions on the list with another point of view (which I believed likely correct, and said "apparently" written) as I have been so enriched--by Thayer and others, including Sawallish (through you). Surely you do not casually demean Thayer. It is not important to me, personally, whose hand the Sonata comes from, or is it likely we will ever for certain know that fact. The Sonata is the sonata. We share on the list whatever knowledge, insight, culture and experience we might have, do we not? My reply was intended as nothing more than that. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:04 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata Why do you oppose the knowledge of approved well known musicians & musicologists ? Have you been there in 1800 at the Kaerntnertortheater in Vienna ? No, you have not. But you should believe those who know the style of both composers much better perhaps than you will ever know, as both have easy access to the whole oeuvre. By the way, the autograph of op.17 was preserved here in Munich, but in private hands, so it got destroyed by allied bombers in 1944. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:02 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata Beethoven himself apparently wrote the horn part to the Sonata. I can not locate my copy of Thayer's biography of Beethoven (english translation) (to confirm my memory) and have not read in many years the passages I now refer to, in paraphrase: Beethoven was scheduled to participate in a musical performance. He learned that Punto was to arrive in town the evening before the performance. Beethoven met with Punto when he arrived and asked if he would participate in the performance the next day, that Beethoven would write something for him. Punto agreed, asking when his part would be ready. Beethoven promised it for noon the next day, and it was thereafter written and delivered as promised, and the two rehearsed it with Beethoven having written for himself but a few notations (as to what constituted the piano part). They peformed it that evening and thereafter took it on the road, in current terminology. One performance was reviewed in part as follows: We all know of the great Giovanni Punto, but who is this Herr Beethover? Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:35 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata The Birdalone publication is a reprint not a transcription. Yes, you are correct with your assumption. The Krufft & the Beethoven Sonatas are rather piano sonatas with an obligato horn part. That was the usual way then. And the piano parts are rather challenging as both composers were extremely good pianists. I had discussed the Beethoven Sonata with Wolfgang Sawallisch, and he assumed that the horn part were not by Beethoven himself but by Giovanni Punto (J.V.Stich), just set atop of the piano part. So it became a combination-composition by a famous author plus another famous co-author. One has to remember that the opus number 17 reflects to a rather early composition by Beethoven. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 9:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata Hans, I heard somewhere that this piece was originally a sonata for piano and horn accompaniment and not a sonata for horn and piano accompaniment. Is that true? Also I think Birdalone music has another transcription of the piece in E, and it's fairly clean. The only problem is the piano music doesn't have the horn part. I've played the piece before. It's very beautiful, and in E it shines quite nicely. In F and in Eb it doesn't seem to have the same effect. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritec
Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata
Beethoven himself apparently wrote the horn part to the Sonata. I can not locate my copy of Thayer's biography of Beethoven (english translation) (to confirm my memory) and have not read in many years the passages I now refer to, in paraphrase: Beethoven was scheduled to participate in a musical performance. He learned that Punto was to arrive in town the evening before the performance. Beethoven met with Punto when he arrived and asked if he would participate in the performance the next day, that Beethoven would write something for him. Punto agreed, asking when his part would be ready. Beethoven promised it for noon the next day, and it was thereafter written and delivered as promised, and the two rehearsed it with Beethoven having written for himself but a few notations (as to what constituted the piano part). They peformed it that evening and thereafter took it on the road, in current terminology. One performance was reviewed in part as follows: We all know of the great Giovanni Punto, but who is this Herr Beethover? Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:35 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata The Birdalone publication is a reprint not a transcription. Yes, you are correct with your assumption. The Krufft & the Beethoven Sonatas are rather piano sonatas with an obligato horn part. That was the usual way then. And the piano parts are rather challenging as both composers were extremely good pianists. I had discussed the Beethoven Sonata with Wolfgang Sawallisch, and he assumed that the horn part were not by Beethoven himself but by Giovanni Punto (J.V.Stich), just set atop of the piano part. So it became a combination-composition by a famous author plus another famous co-author. One has to remember that the opus number 17 reflects to a rather early composition by Beethoven. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 9:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] De Kruftt Sonata Hans, I heard somewhere that this piece was originally a sonata for piano and horn accompaniment and not a sonata for horn and piano accompaniment. Is that true? Also I think Birdalone music has another transcription of the piece in E, and it's fairly clean. The only problem is the piano music doesn't have the horn part. I've played the piece before. It's very beautiful, and in E it shines quite nicely. In F and in Eb it doesn't seem to have the same effect. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Among the Americans, a fellow who had a great reputation for the wonderful sonorities of his bass register was Hugh Cowdens. He was active as a low horn player in, I think, the 40s, 50s, and into the 60s (He thereafter played assistant principal in Chicago). Arnold Jacobs praised his sound. I am wondering if there are any on the list who might have a recording, or access thereto, of Cowden's low horn playing. If so, I say thank you in advance for the sharing thereof. I also look forward to listening to the 4th horn playing you have recommended. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes But does it remain a horn sound, a true horn sound ? Have ever had a chance to listen to my 4rth player on my two CDs with all Viennese F horns ? Perfect clear & full of noble sonority, horn sonority, not just a basso. . -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:50 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes In a message dated 1/26/2004 11:24:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Get the right equipment (mouth piece), follow the advice given by > successful professionals, play !!! If it is not your ranger, try to > improve it. If it still does not work, cultivate the other > ranges of the > horns compass & be better. Your advice on low playing couldn't be better. It's a skill that has to be worked on, and equipment is crucial, particularly the mouthpiece. By using a small mouthpiece, the player has probably learned to use pressure to achieve the upper range. Among the smallest mouthpieces I've seen used with professional effect, I don't recall seeing anything smaller than a Bach 7 or Holton MDC. Playing with a large mouthpiece requires the player to develop emboucher strength, but introduces far more 'muscle' into the cup, greatly increasing endurance, power, and control. It also allows the player to easily switch to a small mouthpiece for descant playing with an authentic, period sound. As I recall you use a very large mouthpiece and obviously stay in the kind of shape needed to support it. Any conditioning program teaches that an individual lifts properly with his legs, not with his arms. A proper leg lifter will long outlast the best arm lifter, and with so much excess strength, it will appear almost effortless. The only point I question is advocation of a deep mouthpiece for low notes. Having done my serious playing in Boston, years ago, I have always favored a large bowl shaped cup, and my professional training was heavily involved with preparing me to play fourth part with strength. The acoustics of the horn and mouthpiece are such that a shallower cup has a few advantages over a deep cup for effectiveness in the low range. I won't argue that a deep cup produces bass more easily, but for a specialist in low playing, clarity, articulation, and power are the really important attributes. A shallower mouthpiece doesn't waste a lot of energy producing the lowest partials. The lower partials don't add much more than muddiness. A player who favors a deeper cup for general playing learns to eliminate the muddiness. But try playing the low register with a wide, shallow mouthpiece, particularly in context with a section, and you'll probably find that the sound is more agile, and projects much better. My son explained the acoustics to me, from his vast expertise. He plays bass trombone and tuba, and uses this effect to great advantage. A Sousaphone is not designed to produce low bass the way a tuba does. Playing outdoors, he plays Sousaphone with a mouthpiece very large in diameter, but quite shallow. He can get more 'Muscle' into the mouthpiece, and doesn't waste much energy making low bass, which has no carrying power outdoors. Not only does he get a beautiful, lyric sound, he can be heard for miles. _______ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
You already sound like Hans, so you have nothing to think about but the music, for others it may be a bit more complicated. And what do successful professionals say--"sound like me and you'll be fine"--just as I thought. And of course, experiment in the practice room--not in the performance. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:24 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes What a nonsense blah-blah, sorry. Do you have time enough for these thoughts while playing ? Surely not. follow the advice given by successful professionals,=== -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:51 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes You can refine most sounds. You cannot refine silence. Try to remember your best sounds. Take the sound of your best note and move it to other notes. Imagine you are Hans, deliver his sound in your mind. Try to imagine that sound quality in the bass tessitura, really concentrate on it when you go for the low notes. It should give you a boost. Work on controlling the product, your prior conditioning in the low range will be your foundation off which refinement takes place. Shel - Original Message - From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > Dear Hans and List, > sound quality in the > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > _ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Addendum: don't work on controlling your lips, and just like you don't tell your lips how to say anything--you just think of what you want to say, the product, turn the key to "on", and "bingo". Pretty much forget how it feels--don't hurt yourself. Shel Original Message - From: "skirshner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > . Work on controlling the > product,> Shel > - Original Message - > From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > > > > Dear Hans and List, > > sound quality in the > > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > > > _ > > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > > http://wine.msn.com/ > > > > ___ > > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
You can refine most sounds. You cannot refine silence. Try to remember your best sounds. Take the sound of your best note and move it to other notes. Imagine you are Hans, deliver his sound in your mind. Try to imagine that sound quality in the bass tessitura, really concentrate on it when you go for the low notes. It should give you a boost. Work on controlling the product, your prior conditioning in the low range will be your foundation off which refinement takes place. Shel - Original Message - From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > Dear Hans and List, > sound quality in the > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > _ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Of course, would have told you. - Original Message - From: "skirshner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > And I suspect Arnold Jacobs would tell you pretty much the same > thing. > > Shel > - Original Message - > From: "Steven Slaff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 7:55 PM > Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > > > >> So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack > low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? > > > > Thanks for your input! > > Steven Slaff > > > > ___ > > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Use a big reed in your mouthpiece--i.e., spread out that opening, use a full volume of air--not loud, but thick, hear the sound of that entrance, and tongue the way you normally do. Remember that the surface of those lips has to vibrate. And I suspect Arnold Jacobs would tell you pretty much the same thing. Shel - Original Message - From: "Steven Slaff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 7:55 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes >> So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? > > Thanks for your input! > Steven Slaff > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oh Boy
As an addendum, I found him to be a very friendly and sociable man. Shel - Original Message - From: "Mark Louttit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 4:14 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Oh Boy > "The 6D was designed in 1935 for James Stagliano, Boston Symphony. My > teacher once told me he played a 6D in the BSO for years, until it was > stolen." > > Oh boy here we go againthis is a controversial topic as to James > Stagliano's involvement with the 6D. We know that he endorsed the horn in > Conn literature when a member of the LA Philharmonic in the 30's, (I myself > have promotional literature attesting to that) yet anyone who had any > dealings with the man will say unequivocally that he played an Alexander. > Some people even refer to the Conn 6D as a "Stagliano wrap"...to me this is > one of those interesting points areas in horn history that is veiled in > mystery as your horn. Max Pottag is on record as stating that he was a > primary person in designing the Conn 6D and there is some evidence to > support this in the Conn Records extant at America's Shrine to Music at the > University of South Dakota according to its curator, just as there is > apparently some evidence that Stagliano had a role in its development as > well. I have always bought into the theory that Conn made 6D stencil horns > for Buescher. Apparently you have something different here that deserves > greater examination of that theory. I know at one time Buescher either > imported Alexander 103's as stencil horns or had parts imported and > assembled them here. People born in the last quarter of the last century > probably don't fully realize that Buescher was a fairly serious player in > the musical instrument making business in the early decades of the 20th > Century and their saxophones especially were highly regarded. > > Thank you very much for your observations regarding your Buescher. Perhaps > Leonard Brown has some ideas from down El Paso way regarding your horn. > > Mark L. > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oh Boy
I heard Stagliano play (one of the Mozart concerti I believe) in 66. I talked to him briefly afterward as he was a friend of my teacher, Clyde Wedgewood. I sure don't remember him playing a Conn of any stripe at that time. He was, by the bye, a man who could easily and competently play with a warmup coctail or two. - Original Message - From: "Mark Louttit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 4:14 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Oh Boy > "The 6D was designed in 1935 for James Stagliano, Boston Symphony. My > teacher once told me he played a 6D in the BSO for years, until it was > stolen." > > Oh boy here we go againthis is a controversial topic as to James > Stagliano's involvement with the 6D. We know that he endorsed the horn in > Conn literature when a member of the LA Philharmonic in the 30's, (I myself > have promotional literature attesting to that) yet anyone who had any > dealings with the man will say unequivocally that he played an Alexander. > Some people even refer to the Conn 6D as a "Stagliano wrap"...to me this is > one of those interesting points areas in horn history that is veiled in > mystery as your horn. Max Pottag is on record as stating that he was a > primary person in designing the Conn 6D and there is some evidence to > support this in the Conn Records extant at America's Shrine to Music at the > University of South Dakota according to its curator, just as there is > apparently some evidence that Stagliano had a role in its development as > well. I have always bought into the theory that Conn made 6D stencil horns > for Buescher. Apparently you have something different here that deserves > greater examination of that theory. I know at one time Buescher either > imported Alexander 103's as stencil horns or had parts imported and > assembled them here. People born in the last quarter of the last century > probably don't fully realize that Buescher was a fairly serious player in > the musical instrument making business in the early decades of the 20th > Century and their saxophones especially were highly regarded. > > Thank you very much for your observations regarding your Buescher. Perhaps > Leonard Brown has some ideas from down El Paso way regarding your horn. > > Mark L. > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn celebrities?
I heard Milt Kamen do his shtick. He said playing the horn was a very unsettling experience. He said it is nerve wracking after a bad night to look, in the morning, into the mirror and after studying one's face look to one's mouth and say: embouchure, how do you think you feel today? Shel - Original Message - From: "phirsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horn celebrities? > > This thread could be endless, particularly if you end up including > composers, singers and (shudder) conductors who started out playing horn. > > My slight contribution to this thread would be: > > Vanessa Williams (This little known factoid was imparted to me by her high > school band director) > > Back in the sixties, when the moderately well known comedian and actor Milt > Kamen would appear on the Tonight Show, Doc Severinsen would usually have > the band weave a Til Eulenspiegel reference into his intro music as an > inside reference to his earlier efforts as a horn player. > > My other favorite (frequently cited and unfortunately, fictional) is: > > Sidd Finch > > I could go on , but that's it for now, > > Peter Hirsch > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] apologies
Apolgies to list for message to Dan Phillips, I thought I had sent to him personally. Shel ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] looking for an old friend
Hi Dan, I'm on the horn list. I wonder if you might know if an old friend of mine, Bill Dwyer, is on your psychology faculty. He would probably be pretty senior, if not just retired. Thanks a lot. Shel Kirshner ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] No more wisdom (teeth)
Pick out simple tunes, happy birthday for example, that musically are a part of you, and that you can sing (in your mind) as you play. Use very moderate dynamics, in a very comfortable range (go up or down an octave in general or for a note or two as necessary). Don't push. This will help to stabilize your tone production and reacquaint and re-condition the connection between how you are used to sounding with a new accoustical environment (one less a few chompers). Pay no attention to how it feels (don't hurt yourself), just how it sounds, and let your memory of the tune and how you would like to sound be your guide. Just a thought. Shel - Original Message - From: "William Foss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:55 PM Subject: [Hornlist] No more wisdom (teeth) After getting my wisdom teeth out and sitting out about 2 weeks, I have picked up my horn again. Picking it up was the easy part, when I got around to playing I could tell I was in trouble. I can hardly play: I can't really "feel" the notes too well, and my sound is shaky. (On the bright side I've found that not playing has cured me of some of my bad habits) I asked my horn teacher what to work on, he said scales would be good to start out on, but not to go too high. I'm wondering if anyone has any additions to make to that. I'm looking for something that isn't too easy to slip back into those habits. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Thanks William Foss "The various viewpoints on Horn tone are held with such fierce devotion that one encounters otherwise in religous controversies." -Gunther Schuller _ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger - learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] You mean it's not ALL me?
Try diction. Think "tAAH" when you tongue.Don't sit on the "t." Small "t" and big "AAH"--keep the air thick and going. Shel - Original Message - From: "Matt Pollack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 7:17 PM Subject: [Hornlist] You mean it's not ALL me? > I am one of those horn players that has just returned (about 6 months ago) to horn playing after a long hiatus (about 14 years). I read the recent posts by Hans and Graeme about F vs. B-flat side playing, under the thread "Horn in C#," which Mr. Nutcracker nominated for the "stupidest thread of 2003" award. > > During my recent playing, I have been dissatisfied with my tonguing, especially in the mid-low register (from about E on the bottom line of the staff down). I was getting frustrated with myself for not being able to make these attacks crisp. > > Hans's and Graeme's posts relieved me a little by calling the F side "fuzzier," but I'd like some clarification. Is it indeed harder to get a crisp attack in tonguing notes on the F side than on the B-flat side? Although I will, of course, continue to practice the tonguing on the F side (I figure I can't improve by practicing the easier tonguing on the B-flat side), I'd like to know if I am reading their posts correctly. > > Apparently, I don't remember as much as I think I did from my horn heyday. > > While I'm at it, any other advice for getting the tonguing a little crisper (crispier?)? > > Thanks! > > --Matt Pollack > Amateur, Topsham, Maine > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] female pro horn players of the 50s and 60s
Dorothy Katz, of Chicago, is one. And, of course, the former assistant principal at the CSO, Nancy Fako (for a while in the 60s, I believe). ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] NHR - and you need to have been born in the 30s
The whiffenpoof song. Never mind. - Original Message - From: "Ralph Mazza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 6:11 PM Subject: [Hornlist] NHR - and you need to have been born in the 30s > > A tune fragment has been camping in my skull for weeks. It's from a song I > heard around 1950, but not since. I recall it as a male voice over a cinema > segment showing raindrops blurring a bluish window. Can anyone identify the > tune, or the movie, or suggest where else to ask? > I don't remember any of the words, and only the last couple of lines of the > melody. > > 2 = half note > 4 = quarter note > 8 = eighth note > 8. = dotted eighth note > 16 = sixteenth note > -|- = tie > > First 8th note is pickup to second beat. All within the treble staff, > except D#, D, C, and B below staff in 3rd - 5th measures > > In 2/4, 4 = 60/min. Sad; forlorn > > 8 8. 16 | 8 8 8. 16 | 8 8 8. 16 | 4 4-| > E CB | A E AG | F C FE | D# B-| > > > |-8 16 168 16 16 | 2 -|-8 16 1688| 4 4-|-8 > |-BB C D C B | F -|-F E EF# G# | B A-|-A > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Doppler this
We have a winner!
Sheldon
- Original Message -
From: "David Goldberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Doppler this
> Bob Marlett sez:
>
> > OK all you real, imagined, and armchair physicists:
> >
> > I am at the top of a hill sitting on my bicycle. I tune my horn to
> > a440. I proceed down the hill (still playing the concert a) where a
> > highly-sensitive tuner is positioned to determine the pitch of my
> > instrument at precisely the moment I have achieved 10 miles per hour.
> > What is the frequency of my a as I go speeding by?
>
> and Timothy A. Johnson sez:
>
> a=440
>
> ===
>
> because the moment you pass the tuner you are neither approaching it or
> receding from it, so the sound waves you produce are not getting
> compressed or stretched, relative to the tuner.
>
> Subject to Cabbage's imprimatur, as I am at best rusty armchair:
>
> While you approach the tuner at 10mph, the tuner hears about 446 and while
> you recede, it hears about 434.
>
> Observed frequency = (source frequency) times (speed of sound) divided
> by (speed of sound plus or minus speed of source)
>
> The speed of sound is about 750 miles per hour.
>
> Observed f = 440 x 750 / (750 - 10) = 446 (approach)
>
> Observed f = 440 x 750 / (750 + 10) = 434 (recede)
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
> { Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
> { Ann Arbor Michigan }
>
>
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net
>
___
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set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
Actually I thought it was cute. But I didn't get the vitamin E and
Schumann. Nu? Except possibly the concertstuch--meaning concert stab, and
vitamin E to heal the wounds of the high Es. Is that it?
Nevermore, and before,
S
- Original Message -
From: "David Goldberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, John Dutton wrote:
>
> > So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed
> > to the sun before the performance.
>
> It is known that exposure to sunlight causes the body to produce vitamin
> D. Maybe that will solve the problem of hitting the Haydn high D that
> came up recently.
>
> And vitamin E for Schumann?
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
> { Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
> { Ann Arbor Michigan }
>
>
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
I, of course, would recommend staying out of the Sun to avoid sunstroke.
S
- Original Message -
From: "David Goldberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, John Dutton wrote:
>
> > So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed
> > to the sun before the performance.
>
> It is known that exposure to sunlight causes the body to produce vitamin
> D. Maybe that will solve the problem of hitting the Haydn high D that
> came up recently.
>
> And vitamin E for Schumann?
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
> { Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
> { Ann Arbor Michigan }
>
>
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
