[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
David Goldberg wrote: Does anyone else notice that some days the lip feels about right, but it takes more than the usual concentration to make breath control cooperate? If this happens, does it suggest that breath control is not quite as trainable - to become automatic - as embouchure control? In a long and grueling session, you can hurt your lip or fatigue it so that the next day it's stiff, but you can't fatigue or hurt your breath, can you? So how do you explain having a bad breath day? Jokes aside, I mean. -- When I have strenuous concerts, I often get sore in the muscles of the rib cage. I take that as an indication that I am generally doing things right. When I was younger I often had trouble getting the air moving. But I found that simplified versions of some yoga breathing exercises were very effective at stretching the rib cage and aligning the posture so that the breath came more easily. As with any motor skill, it takes time to develop capacity and regular practice to develop consistent habits. I seldom have problems getting the breath working any more. If there is any interest, I can give some specifics off line. Richard Hirsh, Chicago ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Greg Campbell wrote: I think the reason here is physiology. All of our skulls, lips, teeth, and facial muscles are built a little differently. Similar, but different. So it stands to reason that while there would be basic similarities in how embouchures work, everyone is subtly different. And those subtle differences may manifest themselves in very visibly dissimilar embouchures. Indeed. Which is why I cringe whenever I hear someone proclaim that a certain mouthpiece is the ideal choice for a given horn. Of course, characteristics like shank taper and size, backbore, etc. can affect the match-up, but usually such proclamations ignore whether that mouthpiece fits the individual player. Size 8 shoes may be an ideal size for running 100-meter dashes, but not if the runner has size 10 feet. That seems to be the way some folks would choose a mouthpiece. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Does anyone else notice that some days the lip feels about right, but it takes more than the usual concentration to make breath control cooperate? If this happens, does it suggest that breath control is not quite as trainable - to become automatic - as embouchure control? In a long and grueling session, you can hurt your lip or fatigue it so that the next day it's stiff, but you can't fatigue or hurt your breath, can you? So how do you explain having a bad breath day? Jokes aside, I mean. David Goldberg ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Milton Kicklighter wrote: I guess my point was that the embouchure... and here I expect to get flamed... is not the most important aspect of playing the horn. Look at all the players you know and see just how many different ebouchures you see. Some really good players I have know have even had some really weird embouchures. The one constant I see among strong players is good breath control. I think the reason here is physiology. All of our skulls, lips, teeth, and facial muscles are built a little differently. Similar, but different. So it stands to reason that while there would be basic similarities in how embouchures work, everyone is subtly different. And those subtle differences may manifest themselves in very visibly dissimilar embouchures. The way the air moves through the embouchure, however, seems to have much less differences between people. Sure: one person's lungs can tank up 6.5 liters, another's can only manage 2 liters. But the process of moving the air from the outside world, into the lungs, out through the embouchure, and through the horn in a way that creates a good tone probably varies a lot less than the meaty parts of the front of the face vary. Greg ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Hi Wendell and Guys, Sorry but I don't think I was complete enough in my answer about help with embouchure problems. Of coarse the first for beginning horn students and for all of us that might be having some difficult in our playing is to recheck the embouchure. In fact when I am starting a new student, I always have them work for a couple of months with a mirror. Having a correct placement of the mouthpiece and all of the other stuff i. e. Farkas, is so important. I guess my point was that the embouchure... and here I expect to get flamed... is not the most important aspect of playing the horn. Look at all the players you know and see just how many different ebouchures you see. Some really good players I have know have even had some really weird embouchures. The one constant I see among strong players is good breath control. So!!! Yes, a good embouchure is very important, and when coming back to the horn after a long lay-off, I think working with a mirror is most important. But I still contend that when problems don't seem to solve themselves, look to the breath. Milton Milton Kicklighter 4th Horn Buffalo Phil --- On Tue, 6/24/08, Wendell Rider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Wendell Rider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems To: horn@music.memphis.edu Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008, 6:12 PM On Jun 24, 2008, at 6:26 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > message: 2 > date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) > from: Larry Jellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > subject: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems > > Milton's comment, "But you could have really good breath control > and you could play out your nose", is amusing hyperbole. If there > are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle > functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an > insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why > you think so. > > I know proper air support and control is critically important. I'm > not a pro nor a teacher, so I don't think I'm qualified to explain > exactly what proper air support and control is; I think the > "control" part is very important, and it would be helpful if > someone would explain what good air support and control is. > Obviously, every beginning player who blows a sound through a horn > is applying air pressure, air flow, and some level of air control. > Telling such a person to use "air support and control" doesn't help > them very much. > > I know what good air control and support is for my playing, but I > ask a more experienced player to step forward and explain it in a > way so that a person who doesn't know what it is can understand > it. Thanks. > > Larry Hi Larry and all, The answers to our questions ARE really quite simple, but NOT "simplistic." It never pays to make gross statements or generalizations, especially on a forum, of any kind. This is how we have gotten into so much pedagogical trouble over the years. Some of these statements are amusing and have a grain of truth to them, but they fall far short of good methodology. I will start this thread off by supplying a link to a chapter from my book, called "Balance and the Natural Process of horn Playing." I added this chapter to the second edition, so those of you who have the first version with the black and white cover might want to download and print this. There is more detail to be had, but I think this explains my philosophy of teaching and learning the horn, which is obviously not one thing or another, but a balance. And the great thing is, that your body will find it for you if you give it a chance. I also explain this on the DVDs, where you can see me demonstrate it. The other link is to the embouchure section of my book on the Samples and Ordering page. http://www.wendellworld.com/html/Balance%20and%20Natural%20Process.pdf http://www.wendellworld.com/html/Embouchure.pdf Most people can improve their playing by just taking in more air and keeping it going all the time while they play. I would suggest looking at "The Good Breath" video on my website. The link is on my home page. Also, go to the Windsong Press website and look at some of the Jacobs videos that are there to demonstrate the breathing devices. Finally, for those of you who come to Denver, we will be going over all of this in my room on an ongoing basis. Come by and pick my brain, it needs it. Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, "Real World Horn Playing", the DVDs and Regular and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: http:// www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options
[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
On Jun 24, 2008, at 6:26 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 2 date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) from: Larry Jellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems Milton's comment, "But you could have really good breath control and you could play out your nose", is amusing hyperbole. If there are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why you think so. I know proper air support and control is critically important. I'm not a pro nor a teacher, so I don't think I'm qualified to explain exactly what proper air support and control is; I think the "control" part is very important, and it would be helpful if someone would explain what good air support and control is. Obviously, every beginning player who blows a sound through a horn is applying air pressure, air flow, and some level of air control. Telling such a person to use "air support and control" doesn't help them very much. I know what good air control and support is for my playing, but I ask a more experienced player to step forward and explain it in a way so that a person who doesn't know what it is can understand it. Thanks. Larry Hi Larry and all, The answers to our questions ARE really quite simple, but NOT "simplistic." It never pays to make gross statements or generalizations, especially on a forum, of any kind. This is how we have gotten into so much pedagogical trouble over the years. Some of these statements are amusing and have a grain of truth to them, but they fall far short of good methodology. I will start this thread off by supplying a link to a chapter from my book, called "Balance and the Natural Process of horn Playing." I added this chapter to the second edition, so those of you who have the first version with the black and white cover might want to download and print this. There is more detail to be had, but I think this explains my philosophy of teaching and learning the horn, which is obviously not one thing or another, but a balance. And the great thing is, that your body will find it for you if you give it a chance. I also explain this on the DVDs, where you can see me demonstrate it. The other link is to the embouchure section of my book on the Samples and Ordering page. http://www.wendellworld.com/html/Balance%20and%20Natural%20Process.pdf http://www.wendellworld.com/html/Embouchure.pdf Most people can improve their playing by just taking in more air and keeping it going all the time while they play. I would suggest looking at "The Good Breath" video on my website. The link is on my home page. Also, go to the Windsong Press website and look at some of the Jacobs videos that are there to demonstrate the breathing devices. Finally, for those of you who come to Denver, we will be going over all of this in my room on an ongoing basis. Come by and pick my brain, it needs it. Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, "Real World Horn Playing", the DVDs and Regular and Internet Horn Lessons go to my website: http:// www.wendellworld.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
I have not been following this whole thread ... Regardless of how your embouchure "looks" there is a balace to be struck between air out into the horn and amount of contact with the MPC to the lips. Think of this as a seesaw with the correct balance you will be centered with a gorgeous sound at any dynamic. Debbie Schmidt Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2008, at 1:47 PM, Steven Mumford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hmmm, well you could easily turn the statement around and say that you could have a perfect embouchure, but if your air isn't working, you'll still sound bad. Except that, as Jonathan mentioned, if your air is bad, it's going to mess up your perfect embouchure. How to put good air in words? That's for braver people than me. A great player and excellent teacher could SHOW you in about 5 minutes and that would teach more than all the bandwidth on earth. Here's my simplistified take on embouchure and air. -Embouchure: If it looks really weird, it's probably not ideal. That includes the way your embouchure looks when you play really low notes. -Air: If it feels difficult or unnatural, you're probably doing things you don't need to do. Here's a cool lesson I got from a long time Jacobs student recently. You know the tube thingy with the ping pong ball in it? He said, don't suck the ball upward, just breathe in easily and naturally. Just get the ball to flutter a little. After awhile, the ball rises to the top with no effort. The air starts to move in and out with volume but with no effort. A. - Steve Mumford Larry wrote: Milton's comment, "But you could have really good breath control and you could play out your nose", is amusing hyperbole. If there are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why you think so. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jasoncat%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Hmmm, well you could easily turn the statement around and say that you could have a perfect embouchure, but if your air isn't working, you'll still sound bad. Except that, as Jonathan mentioned, if your air is bad, it's going to mess up your perfect embouchure. How to put good air in words? That's for braver people than me. A great player and excellent teacher could SHOW you in about 5 minutes and that would teach more than all the bandwidth on earth. Here's my simplistified take on embouchure and air. -Embouchure: If it looks really weird, it's probably not ideal. That includes the way your embouchure looks when you play really low notes. -Air: If it feels difficult or unnatural, you're probably doing things you don't need to do. Here's a cool lesson I got from a long time Jacobs student recently. You know the tube thingy with the ping pong ball in it? He said, don't suck the ball upward, just breathe in easily and naturally. Just get the ball to flutter a little. After awhile, the ball rises to the top with no effort. The air starts to move in and out with volume but with no effort. A. - Steve Mumford Larry wrote: Milton's comment, "But you could have really good breath control and you could play out your nose", is amusing hyperbole. If there are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why you think so. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
SV: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Larry, I think I see what you mean, but it may be asking a bit to much to expect that even the most competent horn player and teacher in a few words can explain this complex relation with air support and embochure. Borje -Ursprungligt meddelande- Fran: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Larry Jellison Skickat: den 23 juni 2008 19:49 Till: horn@music.memphis.edu Amne: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems Milton's comment, "But you could have really good breath control and you could play out your nose", is amusing hyperbole. If there are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why you think so. I know proper air support and control is critically important. I'm not a pro nor a teacher, so I don't think I'm qualified to explain exactly what proper air support and control is; I think the "control" part is very important, and it would be helpful if someone would explain what good air support and control is. Obviously, every beginning player who blows a sound through a horn is applying air pressure, air flow, and some level of air control. Telling such a person to use "air support and control" doesn't help them very much. I know what good air control and support is for my playing, but I ask a more experienced player to step forward and explain it in a way so that a person who doesn't know what it is can understand it. Thanks. Larry ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/borje.lofblad%40bjarenet.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
At 10:15 PM +0100 6/23/08, Jonathan West wrote: How can you tell if you are providing enough air? "Huff" a note (perhaps a second-line G) without tonguing it, and see if it comes out fairly cleanly. I do my long tones without the tongue. It's an excellent check on proper embouchure and support for me. What I'm looking for is the center of the tone. I'm not looking for excellent intonation. That would be counter productive to centering the tone. Regards, Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
2008/6/23 Larry Jellison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I know proper air support and control is critically important. I'm not a pro > nor a teacher, so I don't think I'm qualified to explain exactly what proper > air support and control is; I think the "control" part is very important, and > it would be helpful if someone would explain what good air support and > control is. Obviously, every beginning player who blows a sound through a > horn is applying air pressure, air flow, and some level of air control. > Telling such a person to use "air support and control" doesn't help them very > much. > I'll have a bash at this. Many people with embouchure problems don't provide enough air, and compensate by having too much lip tension. This is awfully hard work on the embouchure and leads to a lack of endurance, and possibly other more serious problems over time if not corrected. How can you tell if you are providing enough air? "Huff" a note (perhaps a second-line G) without tonguing it, and see if it comes out fairly cleanly. If the initial sound is thin and weedy, or if the pitch or tuning is insecure, then you are very probably not providing enough air. Relax your embouchure a bit, take a deep breath filling up from the bottom of your lungs (your abdomen should expand before your chest does), and provide support for the air by tensing your abdominal muscles. If you are in the habit of not providing enough air, it may take you a quite a few goes before you get a fairly clean entry without tonguing. With a more relaxed embouchure, the net effect is that more air is being provided, passing through a slightly wider aperture between the lips. You may be very surprised at how much improvement this makes to your tone. Once you are cleanly huffing notes, you now know how much air should be provided. All that your tongue should do is periodically interrupt this supported flow of air. The full degree of support necessary to sustain the note should be available *before* you start to play it, being held back by the tongue, and the "t" action of tonguing should simply remove the barrier to the the flow of air. Take a breath, position the mouthpiece on the lips, provide the same level of abdominal tension you did when huffing the note, but hold the air back with the tongue. Then, with a gentle "tah" let the tongue drop out of the way and allow the note to sound. Moreover, the air support should be continuously available through a phrase even when you have several tongued notes, and even if you have a short rest. try playing an ascending major scale slurred, then do the same tongued but keeping the air support going as if you were still slurring. The tongue simply interrupts the airflow for an instant. The only time you let the support drop is in order to take a fresh breath. Once you are in the habit of providing enough air, an upward lip slur of a third or fourth is achieved by means of more air support (more push from the abdomen) and a *modest* tightening of the lips. As part of this exercise, try huffing all the notes of the G major scale. It is perfectly possible to huff a high G, and you should aim to be able to do that. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Milton's comment, "But you could have really good breath control and you could play out your nose", is amusing hyperbole. If there are others out there who believe proper embouchure muscle functioning (and to some extent, embouchure position) is an insignificant aspect of playing well, please post and explain why you think so. I know proper air support and control is critically important. I'm not a pro nor a teacher, so I don't think I'm qualified to explain exactly what proper air support and control is; I think the "control" part is very important, and it would be helpful if someone would explain what good air support and control is. Obviously, every beginning player who blows a sound through a horn is applying air pressure, air flow, and some level of air control. Telling such a person to use "air support and control" doesn't help them very much. I know what good air control and support is for my playing, but I ask a more experienced player to step forward and explain it in a way so that a person who doesn't know what it is can understand it. Thanks. Larry ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Help for embouchure problems
Wow, it doesn't get much plainer and simpler than that! I like simple exercises, as opposed to thinking too hard so here's a dirt simple thing to try out. Pick a passage to play, put your lips outside and around the mouthpiece and just blow air through the horn, no buzzing. Blow the air steadily, no tongueing, and finger the notes. Do the passage a few times. When you go back to play it for real, it will go much better. - Steve Mumford Milton wrote: Hi Valerie in Tacoma, Sorry I have been meaning to reply for awhile, but just couldn't seem to ge= t around to it. Here is my two cents: Many years ago in a conversation with John Barrows he said this: =A0 You could have the most perfect embouchure in the world and bad breath = control and you couldn't play *&^*. =A0 Notice I left out the last word =A0 But you could have really good breath control and you could play our yo= ur nose. Moral being:=A0 If I were you I would look to my breath instead of embouchu= re.=A0 I know it is always my problem when I come back after a short or a l= ong layoff. Good luck Milton Milton Kicklighter 4th Horn Buffalo Phil ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
