RE: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
Hi Hans, Cylindrical casings such as those found on Finke and Engelbert Schmid horns are open on both ends so when they are worn the casings can be honed just like a trumpet valve. The rotor can be then replaced with an oversized one with minimal fitting. In fact, provided the valves are kept oiled, you can expect any rotary valve that is properly fit to last for ten-to-fifteen years with minimal attention. Conversely, if routine maintenance is neglected the best valves can be expected to wear prematurely and have all the usual sticking, clicking problems too. Horn playing is tough enough without having to contend with a dirty instrument with mechanical problems. Regards, Bob > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Prof.Hans Pizka > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:34 PM > To: 'The Horn List' > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves > > How to adjust cylindrical rotors (otherwise they could not > fall through an open casing) for air-tightness ??? After they > show signs of wear ??? > > === > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:11 PM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves > > > I'm not aware of any makers nowadays who use no taper on > the rotors. > > There are some who have cylindrical rotors with tapered > rotor bearings, though. > > I asked Johannes Finke (of Finke horns) about this after > reading (on the Finke website) how they make their valves. > Herr Finke told me that their rotors would drop straight > through an open casing. > > So, there's no taper on the rotors, but I'm not sure whether > Finke bearings (or "axles") are tapered. I do know the thrust > in a Finke valve is kept in check with a single ball bearing > on top, adjusted by a setscrew... which is an extraordinarily > cool idea if one intends to keep a horn for a long while. > > Also, this is not said by way of any DiSAGREEMENT with what > you've stated. It's simply more information towards further > discussion on the same point. > > GPF > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > de > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com > > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
How to adjust cylindrical rotors (otherwise they could not fall through an open casing) for air-tightness ??? After they show signs of wear ??? === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:11 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves > I'm not aware of any makers nowadays who use no taper on the rotors. > There are some who have cylindrical rotors with tapered rotor bearings, though. I asked Johannes Finke (of Finke horns) about this after reading (on the Finke website) how they make their valves. Herr Finke told me that their rotors would drop straight through an open casing. So, there's no taper on the rotors, but I'm not sure whether Finke bearings (or "axles") are tapered. I do know the thrust in a Finke valve is kept in check with a single ball bearing on top, adjusted by a setscrew... which is an extraordinarily cool idea if one intends to keep a horn for a long while. Also, this is not said by way of any DiSAGREEMENT with what you've stated. It's simply more information towards further discussion on the same point. GPF ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
> I'm not aware of any makers nowadays who use no taper on the rotors. There > are some who have cylindrical rotors with tapered rotor bearings, though. I asked Johannes Finke (of Finke horns) about this after reading (on the Finke website) how they make their valves. Herr Finke told me that their rotors would drop straight through an open casing. So, there's no taper on the rotors, but I'm not sure whether Finke bearings (or "axles") are tapered. I do know the thrust in a Finke valve is kept in check with a single ball bearing on top, adjusted by a setscrew... which is an extraordinarily cool idea if one intends to keep a horn for a long while. Also, this is not said by way of any DiSAGREEMENT with what you've stated. It's simply more information towards further discussion on the same point. GPF ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
In a message dated 1/9/2006 2:01:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe some modern high end builders also go with no taper, but I don't know if they have an alternative method for evening the wear. I'm not aware of any makers nowadays who use no taper on the rotors. There are some who have cylindrical rotors with tapered rotor bearings, though. Dave Weiner Maryland Band & Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
In a message dated 1/9/06 1:01:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > This uneven wear occurs at a much higher rate if the rotors are allowed > to get loose, so having loose bearings tightened is probably the most > cost effective repair you can have done. > > Hi Bill, This is so very true, The cost of having the valves cleaned and loose bearings tightened is about 1/5th of a decent valve replating Paul Navarro Custom Horn ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
The slight taper on the rotor mitigates the elliptical wear, to a degree. When Conn removed the taper, they ended up with the Texas horn fiasco. I believe some modern high end builders also go with no taper, but I don't know if they have an alternative method for evening the wear. This uneven wear occurs at a much higher rate if the rotors are allowed to get loose, so having loose bearings tightened is probably the most cost effective repair you can have done. -Original Message- From: Tom Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:05:01 + (GMT) Subject: [Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves This thread has been very interesting - I am full of appreciation for the detailed insights provided by real experts. It leads me to conclude that leaky valves come about from a combination of corrosion and mechanical wear. Corrosion from acidic stuff spat into the horn presumably affects the rotor and the bearing surfaces equally all round - except, presumably, where there are build ups of oxides which may protect the metal. I assume that mechanical wear of the bearings is not even however, since the valves move back and forth over only part of their possible range of movement - I expect this makes the bearings go oval. I've heard that the Bb side of a double begins to leak first; this must result from the bottom bearings wearing oval and allowing a bigger than appropriate gap to form between the rotor and the casing. The two sources of wear presumably interact, which must produce some complicated effects. There must have to be quite a lot of wear in the bottom bearing before the rotors begin to wear against the casing. Am I right in any of this? Another question: Which valve usually wears out first? I've always assumed the second - does it get more use than the rest? Best wishes Tom ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
This thread has been very interesting - I am full of appreciation for the detailed insights provided by real experts. It leads me to conclude that leaky valves come about from a combination of corrosion and mechanical wear. Corrosion from acidic stuff spat into the horn presumably affects the rotor and the bearing surfaces equally all round - except, presumably, where there are build ups of oxides which may protect the metal. I assume that mechanical wear of the bearings is not even however, since the valves move back and forth over only part of their possible range of movement - I expect this makes the bearings go oval. I've heard that the Bb side of a double begins to leak first; this must result from the bottom bearings wearing oval and allowing a bigger than appropriate gap to form between the rotor and the casing. The two sources of wear presumably interact, which must produce some complicated effects. There must have to be quite a lot of wear in the bottom bearing before the rotors begin to wear against the casing. Am I right in any of this? Another question: Which valve usually wears out first? I've always assumed the second - does it get more use than the rest? Best wishes Tom ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
