Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
original...How about The Crapshooters Ballet from Guys and Dolls ? > > > Gerald M. Darling Then there's the stopped flutter on a fourth line D in Jekyll and Hyde. Stephen F. Pearce Foley, Alabama [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >. > >> > > > > > > -- > > ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
RE: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
Yeah, kind of like giving the raspberries to the audition committee, eh? Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:horn-admin@;music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of Robert Dickow Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing But...butthat high flutter C was my favorite part of the piece! It really should be on every audition list. ;-) Bob Dickow - Original Message - From: "Robert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'd rather forget it, if you don't mind. :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Let's not forget the flutter-tongued fff hi C in movement > > 5 (Cloudburst) of Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite. ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >-- >[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] >In a message dated 11/13/2002 5:59:45 PM Central America Standard Ti, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > >>Both techniques appear not only in numerous modern works, but also >>figure prominently in the very standard symphonic repertoire - e.g. >>flutter-tongue in Strauss' Don Quixote, or the rather inevitable (very >>fast) triple-tonguing in Ravel's Alborada del Gracioso. >> >>So, these techniques should in no way be regarded as optional, but >>rather developed starting at an early stage of every hornists training. >> >> >>David B. Thompson >>Solo Horn, Barcelona Symphony Orchestra >> >> >> > >Hi David, > >Let's not forget the flutter-tongued fff hi C in movement >5 (Cloudburst) of Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite. > >Regards,Jerry in Kansas City >___ >Horn mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > >. >How about The Crapshooters Ballet from Guys and Dolls ? > Gerald M. Darling > > -- ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
But...butthat high flutter C was my favorite part of the piece! It really should be on every audition list. ;-) Bob Dickow - Original Message - From: "Robert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'd rather forget it, if you don't mind. :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Let's not forget the flutter-tongued fff hi C in movement > > 5 (Cloudburst) of Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite. ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
Disclaimer: An amateur's comment follows and may be worth very little. If you've got one, run it by the teacher first. I started on the trumpet, but changed to the horn when a sophomore in high school, and I could double tongue on the trumpet when I left it but I couldn't on the horn. I fortunately (or unfortunately?) have been able to single tongue just about everything I've played since the change, including Sherezade way back in college. I know this is a shortcoming by professional standards. Fortunately, my livelihood does not depend on my double tonguing skill: horn playing is my avocation, and for over 27 years my audiences have either been pleased, unaware, or forgiving despite the 'deficiency'. What I want to offer to those who struggle with double to triple tonguing is something I've noticed. The quality of my double tonguing technique appears to be a function of the mouthpiece I use. I am not at all suggesting that a particular model is more suited to double tonguing. I am not suggesting that one should go out and switch to a mouthpiece that allows one to double tongue at the expense of all other playing qualities. I am only suggesting that one's inability to double tongue may have something to do with the mouthpiece and embouchure used. Before you concede defeat in the pursuit of skill in double or triple tonguing, try to do it on something other than your normal mouthpiece. It may be that in the process of discovering a new-found facility, you can diagnose the mechanics that allow the improved facility and investigate how you can apply them to the your normal mouthpiece - or maybe reconsider why you selected your normal mouthpiece. Russ Smiley Marlborough, CT - Original Message - From: "Karen McGale Fiehler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Prof.Hans Pizka) > > > >But the heck, why do you want a triple tongue, for what music >...tons > >of excerpts for all horn parts from 4rth to 1st > > I sure can't play "Scheherezade" or the opening of "Don Juan" without triple > tonguing! > > There are some people who just can't single tongue very quickly. I was > amazed to find that Tom Bacon double tongues lots of music that I find very > easy to play single tongued. He just doesn't have a fast tongue, but when > you listen to him you certainly can't tell the difference! > > Because I have a fast, clean single tongue my teachers never thought to > teach me how to double or triple tongue, most likely because I never asked > them how. The first time I sat down to play "Don Juan" I was in a panic - I > couldn't single tongue that fast and my double tonguing sounded horrible! > I'd prefer that my students not face such a wake-up call, so I have them > learn double tonguing by their second year of university. Kopprasch #10 is > a great etude to begin the concept of double tonguing, in my opinion. > (Scales too!) Remove the slurs, and play the entire etude slowly with just > "kuh" or "duh." When the back of your tongue has become coordinated in > articulation, change to "tuh-kuh" or "duh-guh" and strive to make no audible > difference in the articulation. Then gradually increase the speed of the > etude, keeping the even articulations. > > I still play Kopprasch #10 in this way a couple of times a week. I also > practice my triple tonguing in a simliar manner. I consider it a useful > review of a fundamental skill that I use as a horn playing musician. > > karen > ** > Dr. Karen McGale Fiehler > Lecturer of Horn > Northern Arizona University > http://www4.nau.edu/cofa/music/fac_pages/faculty_f.htm > http://www.hornplanet.com/hornpage/miss_karen/main.asp > > > _ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
I'd rather forget it, if you don't mind. :) B On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 04:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's not forget the flutter-tongued fff hi C in movement 5 (Cloudburst) of Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite. ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] In a message dated 11/13/2002 5:59:45 PM Central America Standard Ti, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Both techniques appear not only in numerous modern works, but also > figure prominently in the very standard symphonic repertoire - e.g. > flutter-tongue in Strauss' Don Quixote, or the rather inevitable (very > fast) triple-tonguing in Ravel's Alborada del Gracioso. > > So, these techniques should in no way be regarded as optional, but > rather developed starting at an early stage of every hornists training. > > > David B. Thompson > Solo Horn, Barcelona Symphony Orchestra > Hi David, Let's not forget the flutter-tongued fff hi C in movement 5 (Cloudburst) of Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite. Regards,Jerry in Kansas City ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
RE: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
Leigh Alexander wrote: >>And the flutter tongue ? Why so curious about it ? > >Hans, I don't want to be curious; but it's a circus trick >some composers ask us to perform. Lest this discussion generate some doubt in the minds of some of the younger list members, I should point out that neither triple-tongue nor flutter-tongue should be considered parlor tricks of little use. Both are standard techniques for our instrument and most other wind instruments, and any well-trained hornist will be expected to perform them in any range and dynamic without particular difficulty (or for flutter-tongue, at least give a reasonable facsimile, in the case of those players who have a physical impediment which prevents the trilling of the r). Both techniques appear not only in numerous modern works, but also figure prominently in the very standard symphonic repertoire - e.g. flutter-tongue in Strauss' Don Quixote, or the rather inevitable (very fast) triple-tonguing in Ravel's Alborada del Gracioso. So, these techniques should in no way be regarded as optional, but rather developed starting at an early stage of every hornists training. David B. Thompson Solo Horn, Barcelona Symphony Orchestra ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
In a message dated 11/13/02 10:42:41 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << (anyone ever play a band piece that calls for a cup mute? I have) >> Hi, Leigh. Yes, I have. Humes and Berg sells a cup mute for horn. It's a tad different sound, but BIG! It won't go in a horn case and enjoins one to carry an extra gig bag of some sort to carry it. Maybe it would fit in a Wal Mart plastic sack! The bottom line is that I don't have one and feel no compunction to ever get one. If I played much jazz I might buy one; but at my age that will never happen. CORdially, Mansur's Answers ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
On Wednesday, Nov 13, 2002, at 05:44 US/Eastern, Prof.Hans Pizka wrote: And the flutter tongue ? Why so curious about it ? Hans, I don't want to be curious; but it's a circus trick some composers ask us to perform. Apparently they can't let the flutes have all the fun:-| When ever we complain about having to play (never mind learn) this stuff (anyone ever play a band piece that calls for a cup mute? I have) we're seen as elitest, whining, prima-donnas. In some horn sections I've been in you can almost hear the face shields come down and the swords unsheathFREDOM! Why not thinking about a clean & steady tone first. Dont many of you have this problem first ? Or the problem of hitting the right note ? Yes, Yes some of us do have these problems and work on them all the time; but sometimes "you has to play what the conductor gives you". I don't envision ever saying: Ya know maestro, I'm not there yet in my studies, could you put this off until I am?" Instead I say "never let 'em see ya sweat". So, I take a big swig of a good beer, whine to the cat for a while, then off I go to learn how to do some boneheaded trick who's "special effect" will last all of 2.3 seconds (depending on tempo). Look at it this way: tricks come in useful at the horn conference during that all important setting of the pecking order. I prefer my placement at the bottom of the order; everyone knows all the good beer and the fun people are in the basement anyway. Ones articulation might still be below par and you still bobble pp high g entrances; but you can distract the hoi-polloi with a pandora's box of tricks. Don't forget to brush up on your multiphonics while you're at it. Now go out there and make mamma proud! Leigh ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Prof.Hans Pizka) But the heck, why do you want a triple tongue, for what music >...tons of excerpts for all horn parts from 4rth to 1st I sure can't play "Scheherezade" or the opening of "Don Juan" without triple tonguing! There are some people who just can't single tongue very quickly. I was amazed to find that Tom Bacon double tongues lots of music that I find very easy to play single tongued. He just doesn't have a fast tongue, but when you listen to him you certainly can't tell the difference! Because I have a fast, clean single tongue my teachers never thought to teach me how to double or triple tongue, most likely because I never asked them how. The first time I sat down to play "Don Juan" I was in a panic - I couldn't single tongue that fast and my double tonguing sounded horrible! I'd prefer that my students not face such a wake-up call, so I have them learn double tonguing by their second year of university. Kopprasch #10 is a great etude to begin the concept of double tonguing, in my opinion. (Scales too!) Remove the slurs, and play the entire etude slowly with just "kuh" or "duh." When the back of your tongue has become coordinated in articulation, change to "tuh-kuh" or "duh-guh" and strive to make no audible difference in the articulation. Then gradually increase the speed of the etude, keeping the even articulations. I still play Kopprasch #10 in this way a couple of times a week. I also practice my triple tonguing in a simliar manner. I consider it a useful review of a fundamental skill that I use as a horn playing musician. karen ** Dr. Karen McGale Fiehler Lecturer of Horn Northern Arizona University http://www4.nau.edu/cofa/music/fac_pages/faculty_f.htm http://www.hornplanet.com/hornpage/miss_karen/main.asp _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
We have a clear method for triple tongueing, but this is only for people over 18 & it seems sexist if translated into English: but it sounds like "fickedidickeda" or in English "Feekaedeedeekaeduh". If you repeat this often enough every day at any free minute, you might get a very fast triple tongue. But the heck, why do you want a triple tongue, for what music If even the single tongue is not as it should be: absolutely precise, releasing the tone instantly at the very fraction of a second at the loudness desired without a ptouaaah or ptdwuah Learn first to play a 100% correct 16th scale with every single 16th short (dot on top) & even in dynamic without stutter. That´s it, not double or triple tongue. And the flutter tongue ? Why so curious about it ? Why not thinking about a clean & steady tone first. Dont many of you have this problem first ? Or the problem of hitting the right note ? It is the same as the career model: 1) what horn to buy ? cheapest & best the same time ? 2) how to playx Strauss no.2 3) how to become a member of the VPO ? But forgetting that everything must be acquired step by step: steady tone a horn tone colour a clean c-major scale the different scales how to transpose little pieces horn quartet a lot of etudes first little sonatas & very easy concert pieces tons of excerpts for all horn parts from 4rth to 1st more etudes more demanding solo pieces special effects for modern musis incl. jazz Skip one step, you will get problems later. May I point our younger readers to the page designed for them: www.pizka.de/younger.htm . "Ron and Deborah Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > -- > [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] > Dear Hornlisters, > Does anyone have a sure-fire method of teaching or learning triple tonguing? Is the >ability to do so genetic, like being able to roll the tongue? I know people who can >flutter tongue, but not triple, and others who can do just the opposite (me). > > All help is appreciated. > > Deborah Buchanan > -- > > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > -- Prof.Hans Pizka email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, experiences from my travel) - open soon mail is virus checked ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
~Now, how about offering a flutter-tongue lesson to those of us unable ~to flutter-tongue? ~ ~The best I can manage is a fake flutter-tongue effect done by ~throat-growling through the horn while producing tone the regular way. I once taught someone to flutter tongue by beginning with this approximation, if I understand you correctly. Now that you are comfortable playing with an effect like clearing your throat, attempt to move that vibrating action upwards, if that makes any sense. Try same thing in the upper throat/back of the mouth. (This is somewhat like an exaggerated German hard "ch," as in "Bach.") Once you become comfortable with that, try to roll the vibration forward to your tongue. At first, it's easier to get your tongue vibrating by using lots of air, practicing it at a fortissimo dynamic. Hope this helps! Peace, Keri Lynn Igo _ Animailbox.com - "Saving Animals & the Environment One Email At A Time." Raise money for Animal and Environmental organizations by using a FREE email address from Animailbox.com! Choose from over 200 options, including: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.Animailbox.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
I don't remember where I got this, but it was at least thirty years ago. It has worked very well for both my students and me. For basic triple tounging, use the following sylables: Tee Kah Tah, Tee Kah Tah If you have a long series of triplets, you can change to: Tee Kah Tah, Tuh Kah Tah, Tee Kah Tah, Tuh Kah Tah As has been mentioned on this subject already, the "Kah" can be substituted with a "Gah," which works better for some people. Wilbert in SC ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
Deborah: If you already can double-tongue, you're mostly there. Just add an extra "T" syllable at the front. In double-tonguing, you're going TKTKTKTKTKTKTK. In triple-tonguing, you simply expand that to TTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTK. Some folks get OK results with DKDKDKDKDKDK & DDKDDKDDKDDKDDK or even DTKDTKDTKDTKDTKDTKDTKDTK. IT doesn't matter much which you use, D or T -- just so it works for you. Go with whichever syllable comes out easier in rapid-fire style. It helps to start slow & work up speed. It also helps to use double-tonguing & triple-tonguing on licks that you could easily single-tongue. Being able to do it slow aids in developing the ability to do it fast. Also, don't be put off by the that clattering noise you hear inside your head while doing TTKTTKTTKTTK, etc. You're hearing that sound through your eustacian tubes & the internal structures of your face & head. You're the only one hearing the clatter. It doesn't come out through the horn. Nobody else hears it. All that comes out of the horn is the string of cleanly articulated rapid-fire notes. Now, how about offering a flutter-tongue lesson to those of us unable to flutter-tongue? The best I can manage is a fake flutter-tongue effect done by throat-growling through the horn while producing tone the regular way. Fortunately for me, flutter-tonguing is needed far less than triple-tonguing. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~ Does anyone have a sure-fire method of teaching or learning triple tonguing? ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--
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A few things I tell my students (not in any particular order):
1. Practice speaking the syllables a lot, even whispering when away from the horn.
Say DDG DDG DDG (pronounced "Dih-Dih-Gih") or TTK TTK TTK ("Tih-Tih-Kih"). Accent the
first syllable of each set. People may think you're weird. That's okay.
2. Don't try to use T-T-K right at the start, instead, work on D-D-G to get the rhythm
of the tongue down. Once you can "say" the syllables quickly, sharpen (clarify) the
attack from DDG to TTK.
3. Practice playing simple (i.e. Breeze Easy level) exercises on the K (G) syllable
alone. The object here is to sharpen the K attack so that it is nearly or just as
good as the T attack.
4. Decide on whether you will be a TTK TTK player or a TKT KTK player and stick with
it. It's hard to switch back and forth between the two methods. TTK TTK is the most
popular method and the one that is more natural with regards to the triplet beat
pattern. However, for some, TKT KTK is the only way to make a triple tongue work. I
am a TKT KTK player and have a fast, accurate, clear triple tongue that is
indiscernible from the traditional TTK TTK method.
5. Most importantly, start slow and increase speed over time.
6. It's not hard, just different. Don't try to learn it all in one hour.
In Music,
---Charles De Paolo
General Manager & Webmaster,
Hickeys Music Center (http://www.hickeys.com)
Owner,
Ensemble Publications (http://members.aol.com/enspub)
- Original Message -
From: Ron and Deborah Buchanan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:39 AM
Subject: [Hornlist] triple tonguing
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Dear Hornlisters,
Does anyone have a sure-fire method of teaching or learning triple tonguing? Is the
ability to do so genetic, like being able to roll the tongue? I know people who can
flutter tongue, but not triple, and others who can do just the opposite (me).
All help is appreciated.
Deborah Buchanan
--
___
Horn mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
--
___
Horn mailing list
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[Hornlist] triple tonguing
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Dear Hornlisters, Does anyone have a sure-fire method of teaching or learning triple tonguing? Is the ability to do so genetic, like being able to roll the tongue? I know people who can flutter tongue, but not triple, and others who can do just the opposite (me). All help is appreciated. Deborah Buchanan -- ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
