RE: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
Bravo, bravissimo, all is perfect. If you study the Wagner opera scores & the R.Strauss scores you will find certain tonalities in certain relations with certain emotions, also certain instrument combinations to express certain feelings (observe the horn clarinet combination or the horn bassoon combination !). That´s the way to hear & feel the music, not just play black dots from white paper. And, music can be felt with the whole body not just with the ears. And third, that´s the way to write music. Nobody might think, that these two master composers, genious composers did not calculate the chords they used, but they calculated them from the rules of composition rather than mere mathematics. But there was an interesting experiment at the Brass conference in Bloomington 1980, when the brass quintet from Budapest played their overtone thing, which consisted of perfect tuned slow chord progressions in very low dynamics, but one could hear a melodic flow above, just created by the perfect overtone combinations. These things happen with Wagnerian music also on certain spots. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 6:15 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation Thank you. I sometimes wonder if I'm slightly autistic though because I heard of someone in England who actually pictures colors and shapes and pictures with every number all the way to something like 10,000, and with me with music I see colors and shapes and forms and they're so obvious to me. For example the key of E and Eb, although only a half step off are like night and day to me in terms of sound color. It is the same for me with Bb and B. It is hard for me to explain but it aurally they are like night and day to me. Maybe because I've heard so much? That I don't know. But I do feel familiarity breeds contempt and true knowledge comes from sustained contact with the subject matter. -William In a message dated 5/20/2007 11:31:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: William, you said some very important things. May I ask the community once again, why they do not react to my recommendation of colours, sound colours, which are so important in music, not the mathematical calculations. With all the mathematical calculations up to fractions of cents, things sound so monotonous boring, no flesh no bones, really dead. Quite interesting. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
Thank you. I sometimes wonder if I'm slightly autistic though because I heard of someone in England who actually pictures colors and shapes and pictures with every number all the way to something like 10,000, and with me with music I see colors and shapes and forms and they're so obvious to me. For example the key of E and Eb, although only a half step off are like night and day to me in terms of sound color. It is the same for me with Bb and B. It is hard for me to explain but it aurally they are like night and day to me. Maybe because I've heard so much? That I don't know. But I do feel familiarity breeds contempt and true knowledge comes from sustained contact with the subject matter. -William In a message dated 5/20/2007 11:31:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: William, you said some very important things. May I ask the community once again, why they do not react to my recommendation of colours, sound colours, which are so important in music, not the mathematical calculations. With all the mathematical calculations up to fractions of cents, things sound so monotonous boring, no flesh no bones, really dead. Quite interesting. ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
William, you said some very important things. May I ask the community once again, why they do not react to my recommendation of colours, sound colours, which are so important in music, not the mathematical calculations. With all the mathematical calculations up to fractions of cents, things sound so monotonous boring, no flesh no bones, really dead. Quite interesting. The most missing seems to me the musical basic training, so to learn hearing pitches in advance, but the right pitches. And Steve, how about a "monor third" ? You hit the wrong key & meant "minor", right. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 4:58 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation I thought I might get lambasted for saying it but I will anyways: Tune to where it sounds good. You should have a decent ear as a musician so you should be able to tell, and how to get a decent ear is by closely listening to good recordings. I aced all of my aural skills classes and the only studying I did was listening to good music. Others had difficulty in the class because they never took the time to listen to music instead of just hearing it or not taking the time to hear anything at all. If you wanted to you could write math equations and do calculations until the cows come home to figure out if something is in tune or not, but when you're in a real world situation you won't have time to do that and to me listening to play in tune is going to correct things a lot quicker and make things sound so much better and cohesive then pulling out a piece of scratch paper and computing the pitch tendency in cents. Plus I like to devote some of the few brain cells I have to making whatever it is I'm playing musical. Whether its Schoenberg or Schubert, there is music somewhere and it's a musician's duty to play it. Of course it's always good to study why things are sharp and flat or why partials are going to be out of tune or how to tune chords but training yourself to think and resolve an intonation discrepancy on the spot before anyone notices it or before it has a chance to get out of tune is all the difference in the world. I guess in a roundabout way I'm saying that training yourself to become automatic is a very good thing indeed. That's just my opinion though. I could be wrong. If I am, so be it, but I just wanted to put my two pfennings in. -William ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
I thought I might get lambasted for saying it but I will anyways: Tune to where it sounds good. You should have a decent ear as a musician so you should be able to tell, and how to get a decent ear is by closely listening to good recordings. I aced all of my aural skills classes and the only studying I did was listening to good music. Others had difficulty in the class because they never took the time to listen to music instead of just hearing it or not taking the time to hear anything at all. If you wanted to you could write math equations and do calculations until the cows come home to figure out if something is in tune or not, but when you're in a real world situation you won't have time to do that and to me listening to play in tune is going to correct things a lot quicker and make things sound so much better and cohesive then pulling out a piece of scratch paper and computing the pitch tendency in cents. Plus I like to devote some of the few brain cells I have to making whatever it is I'm playing musical. Whether its Schoenberg or Schubert, there is music somewhere and it's a musician's duty to play it. Of course it's always good to study why things are sharp and flat or why partials are going to be out of tune or how to tune chords but training yourself to think and resolve an intonation discrepancy on the spot before anyone notices it or before it has a chance to get out of tune is all the difference in the world. I guess in a roundabout way I'm saying that training yourself to become automatic is a very good thing indeed. That's just my opinion though. I could be wrong. If I am, so be it, but I just wanted to put my two pfennings in. -William ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 5/19/07 3:04:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "but it is easier to get away with bad pitch in an atonal situation. OK, this a gross generalization, but in the sense of players coming up now playing more atonal music with tempered pitch, the sensitivity to tonal intonation has suffered." I couldn't disagree more. If the sine waves don't line up, it is out of tune. Period. There is no such thing as 'tonal' or 'atonal' intonation. Equal Temperament is only a compromise so that a fixed pitch instrument can play equally out of tune with itself. This was invented so that it can be played in all keys with equal intonation issues. In fact, it is thought that the reasons that early keyboard composers developed the qualities we now identify in sonata form, (i.e. returning to the tonic key where developed musical ideas are presented once again), is because earlier tuning systems for fixed pitched instruments got progressively out of tune the further you strayed from the home key. The resolution was that much more effective when bringing the melodic and harmonically developed ideas back to the home key. I digress. Out of tune is out of tune, and it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a piece is tonal or atonal. Let's be clear on the definition of atonal. Just to clarify, atonal does not refer to a piece merely because of a dominance of dissonance. The term 'atonal' merely refers to a work that has no identifiable pitch center (such as a tonic or dominant key). Furthermore, our western diatonic scale was derived from the natural occurrence of the harmonic series, which as you know occurs in pure, or 'just' form, with no temperament. 'Dissonance' is not a synonym for 'out of tune.' Dissonant intervals, when played justly in tune, produce the same spectrum of resultant tones that you find when playing consonant intervals. Much of John Harbison's music for wind instruments just wouldn't work if the intervals were played out of tune or in equal temperament. In fact, it would completely miss the point. No, I think the insensitivity of the modern western ear to 'just' or 'pure' intonation has everything to do with the dominance of modern fixed pitch instruments (including fretted stringed instruments) and nothing to do with a lack of tonality or excess of dissonance. Furthermore, the timbre of these instruments seems to hide or make these imperfections of tuning less evident. Try listening to a brass quintet playing a Bach chorale using equal temperament. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. Listen to the same chorale on a keyboard instrument, not so bad. peace. - Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: pitch, temperament and intonation
In a message dated 5/19/07 3:04:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This brings up some good points. As far as the number of different F#s there might be, I'm sure you are on track with that- would you like there to be more? : ) The type of exercise you describe is one that everyone should experience at some point or other. Even though we play with pianos quite often, I think it is still important for us to be very aware of the position of our note in the chord and how we need to adjust it for the key we are in or just the chord of the moment. This is important for melodies as well as harmonies. While playing a piece with piano only, you still have to make the chords and melodies work the best you can. Of course this is for tonal pieces, but most of the best things we do are tonal. No offense to the atonal crowd, but it is easier to get away with bad pitch in an atonal situation. OK, this a gross generalization, but in the sense of players coming up now playing more atonal music with tempered pitch, the sensitivity to tonal intonation has suffered. At my seminars I have the players hold different notes while others move to change the chord, much as you describe. They are usually quite surprised by the results. And there is nothing like a horn choir doing something nice and in tune. The "Bottom Line" or "Real World" aspect to this is that we cannot assume that the note we may be holding for ten bars is going to be in tune for that whole time just because we started in tune or because it says we are in tune on our tuners. We need to learn to hear what is "in tune" and adjust appropriately. Exactly how many cents or whatever is not that critical- the interval or chord needs to sound right. Tempered pitch is fine for pianos and an orchestra can get away with it to a certain extent just because of the number of people playing (sad but true), but for really good intonation, we must study and practice the art of staying "in the chord." Each instrument has its own issues, too. Ever try to play with a clarinet player who can't control their pitch in certain registers? We have many notes to adjust ourselves, depending on the situation. Well, there is a ton more to this, but maybe we can keep this going. Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my book, "Real World Horn Playing", the Summer I can see the just intonation for chords but doesn't it get a little trickier on melodies. Aren't we accustomed to hearing the horizontal melody in tempered and the melody itself may sound more natural tempered. I could be way off base on this. Maybe it depends on the vertical vs. horizontal makeup on the individual notes in the melody as to how each note should be played. What happens intonation wise in chromatic modulation - just get the chord right? In the tonality, aren't the main concerns the thirds and sixths and minor seventh in V7 going to I? Ron ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
