RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
Good explanation and more in depth than mine! Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre --- Steve Freides <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Klaus Bjerre wrote: > > -snip- > > > During my musicological studies, I have been quite a bit > > around jazz theory. And there the same chord (Db in C major > > is not considered a subdominant, but a tritone-substitution > > for the dominant, usually with the Db in the bass and with at > > least a minor seventh added. > > > > The classical purpose of the Napolitan chord is to approach > > the Tonica in the melody line from a semitone above via a > > semitone below (the leading note). > > > > The jazz purpose is to approach the root in a chromatic way. > > The normal jazz cadenza in a simplified version is ii7-V7-I. > > In C major giving the bass line D-G-C. The substitution > > version is ii7-bII7-I giving the bass line of D-Db-C. > > > > For me there is no split between the classical and the jazz > > approaches, as they are all about creating a tension to be > > released on the Tonica. > > Thanks you, Klaus. > > I will point out two differences that I are, at least to this theory > teacher, significant. > > The first - in classical music, the Neapolitan chord is usually seen as a > triad in first inversion, while in jazz it's usually a 'dominant' (major > third, minor seventh) seventh chord in root position. In the key of C, the > classical chord is spelled F-Ab-Db, while the jazz chord is spelled Db, F, > Ab, Cb. The classical Neapolitan is more often used in music in a minor key > because it "fixes" what would otherwise be a diminished chord. Ed Aldwell > and Carl Schacter give this chord, which they call the Phryigian II, > excellent treatment in the second volume of their text book, "Harmony and > Voice Leading." The Neapolitan 6/3 chord may, in fact, be followed by a > tonic chord, but that will almost always be a cadential 6/4 version of the > tonic chord, which will then be followed by the dominant chord and then the > final tonic itself. In Aldwell/Schacter parlance, one does not even call > the tonic 6/4 chord used this way a tonic chord at all. (To say more on > this would open Pandora's Box - suffice it to say their theory text is > excellent and explains all this very well.) > > Secondly, in jazz, as you rightly observe, it's a substitute for a dominant > triad or seventh chord, while in classical music it usually functions much > like a II (supertonic), that is, a chord that goes to the dominant chord > which then goes to the tonic. The jazz version is often refered to as a > "sub-V", meaning a substitute for a V chord. So here its function is > different, one level more removed from the tonic in classical music in terms > of how it functions. > > The jazz useage is fun to play with. If you take, e.g., a standard like > "All The Things You Are" (which, I understand, was recently voted "best > popular song of all time" by the members of some musical organization - I'm > afraid I forget the details) in its original key of Ab major, at the text, > "promised kiss of" near the beginning where the melody is a repeated G, you > can play either Eb dominant seven to get you to the following Ab major > chord, in which case the melody note is the third of the chord, or you can > play A (natural) dominant seventh and have the melody be the seventh of the > chord, the latter being the jazz "sub-V" useage. You can even use one > followed by the other and it sounds good. > > Sorry to venture off the topic of horns so much. Horn content - if anyone > would like to sell me an Alexander 103 for very little money, I'm interested > - I had a chance to play one for the first time a few days ago and I am in > love. :) > > -S- > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/yorkmasterbbb%40yahoo.com > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
I suppose I wasn't quite clear in my earlier post. My point was that ear training in many schools is insufficient in comparison to music theory. Unfortunately, I can't speak from personal experience, but I watched some of my peers either breeze through or pass completely out of music theory courses. In every case, they had strong listening (ear training) skills. Some were self taught, others had private lesson instructors who insisted on ear training. Many of the things I learned in "music theory" didn't make sense until I went through my recent ear training courses. Concepts which had at the time seemed complex, became very basic. Original Message Follows From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Horn List To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 03:31:55 + Josh and Hornfolks I got in big trouble with music theory because I 'could' hear the chors and MISSPELLED them as many chords SOUND the same but LOOK different. I did not believe this for a few years until my teacher sat me down and explained that I must not 'listen' to the chords; only spell them as outlined in the text. Only in ear training/musicianship will you be required to use your ears and it is only in the last year of musicianship that a 'chord' test may be given (the teacher (at least at SJSU) played an amalgam of notes on the piano for the last test and the student's job was to identify each and every note. Don't worry about Neopolitan chords, 9th chords, 13th chords, or French Sixths or whatever; as long as you follow the teacher's specific instructions on how to spell each one, you will be just fine. Now, a cautionary word; IF you have perfect pitch; yes you will hear each chord but this is where I got into trouble; because, trust me on this, many many chords SOUND the SAME but are SPELT differently. You want to follow the teacher's instructions and (if you have perfect pitch) try to turn it 'off' for the duration of the class and for your homework. You do NOT need to hear any pitches in music theory with the exception of differentiating between the intervals (a basic exercise). Just spell them exactly as instructed. best Rachel >Josh wrote: >What good does it do to teach a young music student how to >correctly spell a Neopolitan 6 chord if they can't even hear it? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
Klaus Bjerre wrote: -snip- > During my musicological studies, I have been quite a bit > around jazz theory. And there the same chord (Db in C major > is not considered a subdominant, but a tritone-substitution > for the dominant, usually with the Db in the bass and with at > least a minor seventh added. > > The classical purpose of the Napolitan chord is to approach > the Tonica in the melody line from a semitone above via a > semitone below (the leading note). > > The jazz purpose is to approach the root in a chromatic way. > The normal jazz cadenza in a simplified version is ii7-V7-I. > In C major giving the bass line D-G-C. The substitution > version is ii7-bII7-I giving the bass line of D-Db-C. > > For me there is no split between the classical and the jazz > approaches, as they are all about creating a tension to be > released on the Tonica. Thanks you, Klaus. I will point out two differences that I are, at least to this theory teacher, significant. The first - in classical music, the Neapolitan chord is usually seen as a triad in first inversion, while in jazz it's usually a 'dominant' (major third, minor seventh) seventh chord in root position. In the key of C, the classical chord is spelled F-Ab-Db, while the jazz chord is spelled Db, F, Ab, Cb. The classical Neapolitan is more often used in music in a minor key because it "fixes" what would otherwise be a diminished chord. Ed Aldwell and Carl Schacter give this chord, which they call the Phryigian II, excellent treatment in the second volume of their text book, "Harmony and Voice Leading." The Neapolitan 6/3 chord may, in fact, be followed by a tonic chord, but that will almost always be a cadential 6/4 version of the tonic chord, which will then be followed by the dominant chord and then the final tonic itself. In Aldwell/Schacter parlance, one does not even call the tonic 6/4 chord used this way a tonic chord at all. (To say more on this would open Pandora's Box - suffice it to say their theory text is excellent and explains all this very well.) Secondly, in jazz, as you rightly observe, it's a substitute for a dominant triad or seventh chord, while in classical music it usually functions much like a II (supertonic), that is, a chord that goes to the dominant chord which then goes to the tonic. The jazz version is often refered to as a "sub-V", meaning a substitute for a V chord. So here its function is different, one level more removed from the tonic in classical music in terms of how it functions. The jazz useage is fun to play with. If you take, e.g., a standard like "All The Things You Are" (which, I understand, was recently voted "best popular song of all time" by the members of some musical organization - I'm afraid I forget the details) in its original key of Ab major, at the text, "promised kiss of" near the beginning where the melody is a repeated G, you can play either Eb dominant seven to get you to the following Ab major chord, in which case the melody note is the third of the chord, or you can play A (natural) dominant seventh and have the melody be the seventh of the chord, the latter being the jazz "sub-V" useage. You can even use one followed by the other and it sounds good. Sorry to venture off the topic of horns so much. Horn content - if anyone would like to sell me an Alexander 103 for very little money, I'm interested - I had a chance to play one for the first time a few days ago and I am in love. :) -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
At 10:26 AM -0400 5/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like "Viola" and "Cat" Voilà, ya got it, mighty! -- Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: carlbergbmug - http://skype.com/ My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
In a message dated 21/05/2006 15:17:32 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As in music, the English language has many words which sound the same but are spelled differently. Like "Viola" and "Cat" "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg" _http://lawrenceyates.co.uk_ (http://lawrenceyates.co.uk/) Dulcian Wind Quintet: _http://dulcianwind.co.uk_ (http://dulcianwind.co.uk/) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
At 3:31 AM + 5/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got in big trouble with music theory because I 'could' hear the chors and MISSPELLED them as many chords SOUND the same but LOOK different. I did not believe this for a few years until my teacher sat me down and explained that I must not 'listen' to the chords; only spell them as outlined in the text. It seems to me that unless you know the function of a chord its spelling is a moot point. If you are asked to write down "this" chord, and you hear only the chord, any spelling is correct, I'd say. When you wrote "text" at the end of the above quote, did you mean "context?" Then I think spelling would matter. When one hears the word "read," how can one know if it's spelled that way or "red," (or "reed," for that matter) without know the context or the word's meaning? As in music, the English language has many words which sound the same but are spelled differently. Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: carlbergbmug - http://skype.com/ My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
--- Steve Freides <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You have all read Steves fine posting, so I wont quote it. It made me wonder, why I never really can remember the precise composition of the Napolitan chord. So I found it on a web page, and then I knew why: During my musicological studies, I have been quite a bit around jazz theory. And there the same chord (Db in C major is not considered a subdominant, but a tritone-substitution for the dominant, usually with the Db in the bass and with at least a minor seventh added. The classical purpose of the Napolitan chord is to approach the Tonica in the melody line from a semitone above via a semitone below (the leading note). The jazz purpose is to approach the root in a chromatic way. The normal jazz cadenza in a simplified version is ii7-V7-I. In C major giving the bass line D-G-C. The substitution version is ii7-bII7-I giving the bass line of D-Db-C. For me there is no split between the classical and the jazz approaches, as they are all about creating a tension to be released on the Tonica. This relates to a recent thread about Lacher, where Hans like the other posters excluded the alleged horn obligato to be intended for horn. Hans suggested the zink/cornetto, which I applauded. The Napolitan discussion took me back to the Lacher score, as I remembered a figure of some soloist line notes with a sequence similar to that of a Napolitan cadenza. They were not true Napolitan, rather sort of appogiaturas leading to the main note, which in casu was the third of the subdominant. This is all very subtle in a horn context, but it leads to the point of several posters including me: horn players shall play their horn well, but they shall also be thorough musicians, which includes knowledge of style and of harmony. I only have played Mendelssohns violin concerto once at a reading. I was 2nd horn and another, very good, but back then quite young, list member was first. Most of the way we played in natural horn harmonies for horn in E, but suddenly we had to play one or more top-of-the-staff Fs in unisono. Not an obvious range to meat within. But there is a clear reason behind the composers writing. Which is that reason? Only to be told by those knowing about orchestral horn playing of the period. Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
At 3:31 AM + 5/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You do NOT need to hear any pitches in music theory with the exception of differentiating between the intervals (a basic exercise). Just spell them exactly as instructed. Sort of like learning how to spell without learning what the words mean? Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: carlbergbmug - http://skype.com/ My ISP feels that some of my e-mails are not worthy of deliverance. If you do not receive something you expect, please ask me to resend. I apologize for my ISP's evaluation of my e-mail's worthiness. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Music Theory for Josh and others
Josh wrote: > > >What good does it do to teach a young music student how to > >correctly spell a Neopolitan 6 chord if they can't even hear it? Rachel Harvey replied: > I got in big trouble with music theory because I 'could' hear > the chors and MISSPELLED them as many chords SOUND the same > but LOOK different. I did not believe this for a few years > until my teacher sat me down and explained that I must not > 'listen' to the chords; only spell them as outlined in the text. -snip- There is a reason all good musicianship programs require both theory and ear-training - each helps the other. No one is a complete musician without both. I also have perfect pitch, but I grew up as a jazz guitarist and that background has helped me immensely in my career as a classical musician. If anything, I believe one ought to understand before learning to hear - learn theory before ear-training - because hearing without understanding is only half the picture and, as you observe, half the picture can give a misleading impression of the whole. No one without theory training (at least no one I've ever met) understands a Neopolitan, an augmented sixth chord, or other non-beginner theoretical concept intuitively - it must be taught. Merely recognizing the notes one hears but not recognizing them in context is nothing more than a parlor trick - one I am well able to perform but which has little value in the grand scheme of things. I tell my students that my ability to sight-sing almost anything, including atonal music, is ultimately useless to me as a performer because when an audience listens to a performance, they wish to be moved emotionally and don't care whether the performer took 3 minutes or 3 years to prepare the piece. It is not good to only be able to spell a Neapolitan and not hear it, but that is better than to be able to hear the notes because of perfect pitch and have no clue what they mean in context. One can never know too much theory, just as one can never have ears that are too good. Good musicians study theory, ear-training, and the history not only of music but of other arts and general history, for one can also never have too much knowledge about a piece one will perform. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
