Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance duck
And BTY he has used up 7+ pages of advertising on eBay! JW ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance duck
OK Fellow horn players and new auction on eBay. Yamaha 667VS new starting price $150.00 Horn is in London and a nonregistered seller is in Switzerland. I emailed him for pictures and a serial number lets see what happens. John ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance duck
Not necessarily. A friend of mine got a cheap bugle into tune by denting it at strategic places. Don't try this at home, folks. Also, a vent (hole) is an antident. Rick Seraphinoff showed me a baroque horn he made with two vent holes. He could get a lot of notes out of it. Herb Foster --- Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Brian, >I think we are simply better off with NODENTS. > >Amitiés à tous, >Laurent > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:36 AM > Subject: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance duck > Long dissertation on nodes, antinodes, and effect of dents... __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance duck
Brian, I think we are simply better off with NODENTS. Amitiés à tous, Laurent - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance duck > Herb F wrote > > This has brought up an interesting discussion. While the standing wave travels > more efficiently around a ninety degree bend because it reflects off the > corner, what happens when there's a node or antinode there? My acoustic theory > is weak here. Has anything been published? > > > I think there has, but I am not current on the scientific work. > Here is what I know about bends in tubing. Suppose you have > a long straight tube. It will have resonances at certain > frequencies. The longer the tube, the lower the frequencies > of the resonances. > > Now bend the tube, taking care to maintain the circular cross > section. You will find that all the resonances have been shifted > slightly higher. Race car drivers know to drive along the inside > of a turn to shorten the distance they must drive; so too, the > path the sound follows through a bend is slightly shorter than > the path it would take through a straight tube. So the > acoustical length of a bent tube is slightly shorter than its > actual length. > > You can compensate for this effect by making the tube slightly > narrower in the region of the bend. Bassoon makers know > about this. A bassoon's air column goes through a 180 degree turn; > in that region, the air column is slightly narrower than you would > predict from the profile of the rest of the instrument. I > don't know whether brass instrument makers have noticed > or considered this effect. > > There is another effect to consider. First a digression > about dents. When you play a note on your horn, > the sound inside the instrument makes a standing wave > which has displacement nodes and antinodes. If there were > a wall across the tube, then the wall must be the site of a > dsiplacement node: you can't displace air through a wall. > A dent (or a stray blob of solder on the inside > of the horn, or a rotor port that is slightly out of alignment) > would act as a partial wall; it wouldn't affect the > frequency of a standing wave that already had a node > at the location of the dent. But if a standing wave > has a node NEAR a dent, that node tends to shift toward > the dent, changing the frequency of the standing wave. > In addition, antinodes would tend to shift away from the dent. > Different notes of the horn will have nodes (and antinodes) at different > distances from the dent, and so the effect of the dent will > be different for different notes. An abrupt bend in a > tube acts like a partial wall, and so affects the horn the > same way a dent would, shifting some resonances up > and some resonances down, and leaving some unchanged. > > I don't know how large this effect is. I will check out my > sources and see what they say. > > Gotta go, > Cabbage > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lesmis7%40fix.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard
You're on the right track, but it's more complicated than that. It's got to do with impedance matching and the fact that at the bell most of the sound energy is reflected back into the horn. Cabbage could explain it in more understandable terms. Heck, he has to make himself understood by college freshmen. Herb Foster --- Jerry Houston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: "Herbert Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard > > > > Here is an experiment to show that blowing resistance is not the same as > > playing, or acoustic resistance. > > > > 1. If you have a screw bell, play with the bell on and the bell off. You > > will > > feel more playing resistance with the bell on, though it causes no added > > blowing resistance. > > With the bell on, aren't you affecting (vibrating) a much larger volume of > air? That would seem to me to explain the greater perceived resistance. > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard
From: "Herbert Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard Here is an experiment to show that blowing resistance is not the same as playing, or acoustic resistance. 1. If you have a screw bell, play with the bell on and the bell off. You will feel more playing resistance with the bell on, though it causes no added blowing resistance. With the bell on, aren't you affecting (vibrating) a much larger volume of air? That would seem to me to explain the greater perceived resistance. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard
The most common player fault is it, "to blow air through the instrument". The next player fault is it, to have the lips too tight together so to keep the lip opening too small. Instead initiating the sound & let the air stream like opening a balloon more or less so the air or gas can escape. Well, admitted, in the higher dynamics some air push is requested too. If the lips are pressed together too tightly, air cannot stream. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herbert Foster Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 3:33 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard What we horn players call "resistance" engineers call impedance. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn and the resistance canard
This has brought up an interesting discussion. While the standing wave travels more efficiently around a ninety degree bend because it reflects off the corner, what happens when there's a node or antinode there? My acoustic theory is weak here. Has anything been published? The discussion also brought up the subject of "resistance." Resistance is a perceived quality that has more to do with the acoustic characteristics of the horn than the back pressure you feel when you just blow into it. Most of us think that because a smooth air flow causes less resistance to blowing, that there will be less playing resistance. Here is an experiment to show that blowing resistance is not the same as playing, or acoustic resistance. 1. If you have a screw bell, play with the bell on and the bell off. You will feel more playing resistance with the bell on, though it causes no added blowing resistance. 2. Remove the 1st Bb valve slide. Play a 3rd space C on the Bb side with and without the 1st valve pressed. On my horn there is more playing resistance with the valve depressed. However, there is much less resistance to blowing with the 1st valve depressed. What we horn players call "resistance" engineers call impedance. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ... > And, all this ignores the fact that the standing wave travels more > efficiently around a ninety degree bend than around most gentler bends. > .. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn
Now that these acoustical-physical phenomena are better understood, I suppose it can only be a matter of time before innovative square "French" horns show up on eBay along side all those conventional round ones. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~~ The optimization of this tends toward using straight tubing, as much as possible, and designing couplers between the straight sections to make the bends. The couplers geometry is optimized by reflection angles directing the acoustic wave around the corners. Knowing the nature of the acoustic wave will identify places where you absolutely don't want to locate a bend. The optimum shape of the coupler will undoubtedly deviate from a simple bent tube. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball ebay horn
As an engineer, I appreciate that for acoustic waves turning corners, making curves 'gentle' is mostly a result of relying on intuition rather than understanding physics. Is this common knowledge among those who apply modern technology to instrument design? You are the first respectable horn designer I have ever heard mention this fact. For those less informed, the problem of bends in an instrument has two aspects. One is simply air flow, which will respond to straightening curves the same way unkinking a hose will. The other aspect is bending the actual acoustic wave. The optimization of this tends toward using straight tubing, as much as possible, and designing couplers between the straight sections to make the bends. The couplers geometry is optimized by reflection angles directing the acoustic wave around the corners. Knowing the nature of the acoustic wave will identify places where you absolutely don't want to locate a bend. The optimum shape of the coupler will undoubtedly deviate from a simple bent tube. Interestingly, I have one instrument in my collection whose design would indicate some understanding of the physics. It is my oldest brasswind, an antebellum contrabass Saxhorn made by E.G. Wright in the 1850's. Wright's designs are characterized by lengths of straight tubing connected by short couplers turning very sharp 180 degree bends. The couplers will couple two 3/4" tubes running within 1/8" of each other. I'm not sure what the engineering reasoning was behind Wright using these uniform 180 degree couplers wherever possible. I have split coupler that I showed to Robb Stuart because it far exceeds my ability to bend large diameter tubing. Robb thinks he can bend one, but will require several annealing stages. Wright horns are among the best players from the era. This horn rivals the best horns being made today. Just about the time I was congratulating Mr. Wright on his forward thinking design, I further studied the cracked crook from the perspective of my manufacturing engineering experience. I discovered that rather than being a labor of love to bend the tubing, each coupler was made of two stamped shells silver soldered together. I surmise each shell was stamped from sheet stock, then the mating flanges sanded to produce a sharp inside corner. After soldering, the remaining flange was trimmed back flush to the outside wall. It looks just like a piece of tubing with an incredibly difficult bend, except it has two seams right where the flanges were. So was it a cost saving step or an application of physics way before its time? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
On Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 09:01 AM, Herbert Foster wrote: I'm curious. Why has the ascending 3rd valve horn gone so much out of favor? It has many (theoretical) advantages. Tuning should be better because instead of going down a tritone, it goes up and down a minor third, and there would be fewer compromises in tuning the slides. The C horn is part way to a descant to make the high notes easier. Gee, I almost convinced myself to get one (with a stopping valve). Herb Foster Well, if my playing deteriorates much farther I'll have one for sale pretty soon. However, it doesn't have a stopping valve. On the other hand, in over 25 years of use I have yet to have needed a low Ab. The fingering is very similar to that of the regular descending horn, but one must get used to never having any 1-3 or 1-2-3 valve fingerings. (The 1st valve and 3rd valves cancel each other.) Another interesting aspect of playing one is that resistance is rather constant for all fingerings; you never feel that stuffiness from the 1,2,3 combination that puts the descending F horn into the key of low B natural. CORdially, Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
That's why many ascending 3rd valve horns have a stopping valve--to get that missing note. I'm curious. Why has the ascending 3rd valve horn gone so much out of favor? It has many (theoretical) advantages. Tuning should be better because instead of going down a tritone, it goes up and down a minor third, and there would be fewer compromises in tuning the slides. The C horn is part way to a descant to make the high notes easier. Gee, I almost convinced myself to get one (with a stopping valve). Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > These kind of horns are fun to play with. The ascending third has some > advantage. Compared to other double horns, there is just one note > missing: A-flat below low C. I played such a horn from 1974-1978. > > Hans Pizka > > Just back from the exciting conference in Valencia. > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
Also Vlatkovic & his teacher Deticek played this model for years. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Mansur Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 4:44 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn On Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Alan Cole wrote: > I ask you, is there a better virtual museum of oddball musical > instruments than eBay? Check out this 1... > > http://tinyurl.com/544dm > > -- Alan Cole, rank amateur >McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pmansur%40bellsouth.net > Beautiful instrument! May be considered odd in the US &A but this was the standard French instrument many years ago. Hans used to play a Selmer ascending horn. I have an Alexander 102 in the ascending, compensating configuration and it's a fine horn. In 1975 the Holton company had a full ascending model horn in their exhibit at the IHS Workshop in Magog, Canada. It was a nice instrument and played very well. I heard many favorable comments from those who tried it out. Georges Barboteu was a featured artist and he was playing a Selmer. Some of you may recall that Francis Orval and Andre van Driessche also were playing this type of horn at workshops in Hartford and East Lansing in the later '70s. It really facilitates some of the figurations in French etudes, such as the Maxime Alphonse advanced books. Keep an open mind, young folks! Cheers, Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
On Wednesday, July 28, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Alan Cole wrote: I ask you, is there a better virtual museum of oddball musical instruments than eBay? Check out this 1... http://tinyurl.com/544dm -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pmansur%40bellsouth.net Beautiful instrument! May be considered odd in the US &A but this was the standard French instrument many years ago. Hans used to play a Selmer ascending horn. I have an Alexander 102 in the ascending, compensating configuration and it's a fine horn. In 1975 the Holton company had a full ascending model horn in their exhibit at the IHS Workshop in Magog, Canada. It was a nice instrument and played very well. I heard many favorable comments from those who tried it out. Georges Barboteu was a featured artist and he was playing a Selmer. Some of you may recall that Francis Orval and Andre van Driessche also were playing this type of horn at workshops in Hartford and East Lansing in the later '70s. It really facilitates some of the figurations in French etudes, such as the Maxime Alphonse advanced books. Keep an open mind, young folks! Cheers, Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
These kind of horns are fun to play with. The ascending third has some advantage. Compared to other double horns, there is just one note missing: A-flat below low C. I played such a horn from 1974-1978. Hans Pizka Just back from the exciting conference in Valencia. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 7:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn In a message dated 7/29/2004 12:13:52 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Neat horn. It looks similar to the one Dennis Brain is pictured with on one of the Mozart Horn Concerto CDs he did. -William Hi William, If the horn is in F then it is his original Raoux. If it looks to be in Bb then it's probably the 1818 Raoux that he used for about two years after his original horn was disasterously converted to Bb. He later converted to an Alex Bb horn which was with him in the fatal car wreck. The above is from his biography by S. Pettitt. Regards, Jerry ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
In a message dated 7/29/2004 12:13:52 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Neat horn. It looks similar to the one Dennis Brain is pictured with on one of the Mozart Horn Concerto CDs he did. -William Hi William, If the horn is in F then it is his original Raoux. If it looks to be in Bb then it's probably the 1818 Raoux that he used for about two years after his original horn was disasterously converted to Bb. He later converted to an Alex Bb horn which was with him in the fatal car wreck. The above is from his biography by S. Pettitt. Regards, Jerry ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
>Item number = 3739132425 I just sent Paul a note to see if he remembers this horn or if it is another scam. John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1 Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
Neat horn. It looks similar to the one Dennis Brain is pictured with on one of the Mozart Horn Concerto CDs he did. -William In a message dated 7/28/2004 9:13:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Item number = 3739132425 269843a.jpg ~~~ At 12:04 AM 7/29/2004, you wrote: >The link didn't work here. Can you give us the ebay auction number perhaps? > >-William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
Item number = 3739132425 269843a.jpg ~~~ At 12:04 AM 7/29/2004, you wrote: The link didn't work here. Can you give us the ebay auction number perhaps? -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oddball eBay Horn
The link didn't work here. Can you give us the ebay auction number perhaps? -William In a message dated 7/28/2004 8:48:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I ask you, is there a better virtual museum of oddball musical instruments than eBay? Check out this 1... http://tinyurl.com/544dm -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
