Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
First of all, the seller does not claim this horn to be an original C.F.Schmidt but rather calls it a Schmidt model. My genuine C.F.Schmidt has mechanical valve linkages...done sometime before I purchased the horn almost 40 years ago. The details which I immediately noticed were: The 3rd valve F side slide, The leadpipealthough mine was replaced over 30 years ago it is still the original pattern, The apparent lack of NS trim on valve caps and ferrules, The braces on the leadpipe and bell (which seems to be of a pattern used on a lot of Italian imports), The brace from the F tuning slide to the corpus, My F tuning slide is also located closer to the bell. I believe that Kalison still lists a Schmidt model in their (extensive) catalogue of horns. Perhaps this could be related in some way. Paul - Original Message - From: Ray Sonja Crenshaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:58 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed... If you know anything about Schmidt horns (the old piston thumb-valve models from Germany), then I would ask that you go here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=16215item=7302616771 rd=1 ...and take a look at this Schmidt model horn listed on E-bay. The seller has good feedback (meaning people have been happy with his auctions), but there are a few red flags that pop up with this horn. The seller just MIGHT BE playing things a bit coy on ID'ing this horn. I used to have a Schmidt, and have played and/or seen a total of about FIVE of them, NONE of which looked like this horn. The tubing and layout is VERY close, but, for me, none of the detail bits and pieces ring true. I'm aware that many Schmidt-like horns have been made over the years; Conn had one and so did, I'm told, many other manufacturers. However, I'm not enough of an old horn expert to tell if this E-bay horn is simply a later model genuine Schmidt, or a pattern copy. For me, several red flags pop up on this horn. They are, MECHANICAL ROTARY VALVE LINKAGE: Perhaps they came this way, but none I've seen were so-equipped. LEADPIPE SHAPE: Starting at the mouthpiece, the leadpipe on the E-bay horn follows the curve of the bell-section (normal), but then, after only a short distance, it suddenly makes a turn across the middle of the horn, like a Holton or Conn leadpipe does. This is UNLIKE any of the 4-or-5 Schmidts I've seen before. On all the others, the leadpipe continues to follow the curve of the bell-section until THE VERY BOTTOM of the horn (as the player holds it), then turns upward and heads toward the main tuning slide. Or at least that's the way I remember things. LEADPIPE LENGTH: This Schmidt has a SHORTER leadpipe than the others I've seen, prompting the question, Is this a Schmidt at all? 3rd VALVE SLIDE ON F-SIDE: All the Schmidts I've seen used the common 3rd-valve-swan's-neck-swoop, on the F-side, and ONLY THE Bb slide was a simple 6-piece patchwork of 2-curves and 4-straight pieces. The E-bay horn has both 3rd valve slides of the 6-piece construction. VALVE LEVERS, BRACES, VALVE CAPS, ETC: All unfamiliar to me. I have my father-in-law's Schmidt single-F, which is a later model; born after WWII. Even so, most all the little widgets and details are very much like my old between-the-wars Schmidt double. But this horn has none of these familiar pieces. Also, if it's NOT a genuine Schmidt, then what-the-howdy is it? The Carl Fischer inscription on the bell appears on many true Schmidts and, as I understand it, ID's them as post WWII models, imported by Fischer. Perhaps Fischer also had his own Schmidts made? If not a true Schmidt, how good a horn would this one be? What say ye? jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lotp%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
I think that Paul is most probably correct. Carl Fischer imported a number of stencil horns from Italy in addition to horns that were produced for them by York (Carl Fischer eventually acquired the plant in Michigan) who produced a Schmidt model but that was more faithful in appearance to the original C.F. Schmidts. Mark L. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
If I'm not mistaken, this looks like one those Italian made stencil horns imported for Carl Fischer. The 3rd valve wrap on the F side is a dead give away, in addition to the socket braces on the bell. These horns often have nickel plated mechanical levers, machined mouthpiece receivers, and VERY HEAVY bells. If you would like an affordable Schmidt style horn, then it seams to me to be priced about right. It certainly is not a genuine C.F. Schmidt. Jim Becker, Senior Technician Osmun Music Repairing since 1977 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
On the mystery eBay Schmidt-style horn that got this discussion going, the 1-2-3 valve lever tips look somewhat pointed rather than mainly rounded. Isn't that distinctive lever shape another indication that the horn comes from the workshops of Italy? (And wouldn't it be a good reason for installing silver coins on the levers?) -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~~ At 10:17 AM 2/25/2005, you wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this looks like one those Italian made stencil horns imported for Carl Fischer. The 3rd valve wrap on the F side is a dead give away, in addition to the socket braces on the bell. These horns often have nickel plated mechanical levers, machined mouthpiece receivers, and VERY HEAVY bells. If you would like an affordable Schmidt style horn, then it seams to me to be priced about right. It certainly is not a genuine C.F. Schmidt. Jim Becker, Senior Technician Osmun Music Repairing since 1977 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
Rampone Cazzani and Cazzani alone made a lot of these horns, but they are of quite a wide bore, while the original Schmidt before 1928 (the really superb horns) had the same bore as the Viennese horns (10.8 mms inside diameter - I proved that by inserting the Vienna Horns tuning slide into the tuning slide shafts of the Schmidt.) The later Schmidt horns had a bit wider bore. Anyway, a Schmidt horn is not always that what you might expect even in best condition. Some are superb, some less good, some terrible. So be cautious. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed
In a message dated 2/25/05 1:00:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hans Pizka writes: Rampone Cazzani and Cazzani alone made a lot of these horns, but they are of quite a wide bore, while the original Schmidt before 1928 (the really superb horns) had the same bore as the Viennese horns (10.8 mms inside diameter - I proved that by inserting the Vienna Horns tuning slide into the tuning slide shafts of the Schmidt.) The later Schmidt horns had a bit wider bore. Anyway, a Schmidt horn is not always that what you might expect even in best condition. Some are superb, some less good, some terrible. So be cautious. Hans, do you know the dates of when Schmidts were labeled Berlin or Berlin frueher Weimar? I had heard that those were made before 1920, but all of those I've seen had a bore of 11.9mm. Carl Fischer was the Amerikan (sic) and Canadian importer of those. I do have a Schmidt model horn labeled only Carl Fischer that has the smaller bore and it looks identical in every way to the real Schmidt except that the rotary valves are different. Unfortunately a couple of the rotors are missing so no telling how it plays. Interestingly, after Schmidt went to the larger bore size, the piston valve still stayed at the smaller bore. I'd call it closer to 11.12mm than 10.8 but, depending on the wall thickness of the tubing, that could still fit into the Viennese horn. In American we'd call it .438 (10.8 = .425). I also have a pre 1900 Kruspe that has that bore size. Okay, I'll stop rambling now - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
Actually, that reminded me of another Schmidt question. I have 2 single F horns marked J Schmidt in a script very similar to the usual CF Schmidt. One is marked CSR, the other, only 21 serial numbers later is marked made in Germany. Has anybody heard of this maker? It's not mentioned in the Langwill dictionary. Both were imported to the US by Gaetz Music House in Columbus. They are a spittin' image of the earlier King single Fs including layout, style and placement of braces, figerhooks etc but are definitely not made by King. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
Hmmm -- Ver-r-r-r-y in-n-n-n-teresting. (As Arte Johnson used to say.) You don't suppose the horn is counterfeit, do you? I mean, how much money can there be in faking a semi-historical instrument worth no more than a few hundred bucks on eBay? My old horn teacher (lessons back in the 1955-1960 era) had a Schmidt-type double horn. (He also had an authentic original Geyer double, but that's another story.) I don't know whether his Schmidt horn was a Schmidt-Schmidt or a Conn-Schmidt. Whatever it was, I always thought that the piston valve mounted sideways on it was kind of cool. Years later, in a Horn Call article, I read about modifications that somebody came up with in an effort to deal with the uncomfortable left-hand position involved in operating a Schmidt-style double horn. Out of respect I suppose, the article didn't come right out say the awkward left-hand position makes the unmodified Schmidt double unplayable, but that was the impression I came away with after reading the piece. If the eBay price stays relatively low, that horn would make a nice wall hanger irrespective of its authenticity, no? -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. At 10:58 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote: If you know anything about Schmidt horns (the old piston thumb-valve models from Germany), then I would ask that you go here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=16215item=7302616771rd=1 ...and take a look at this Schmidt model horn listed on E-bay. The seller has good feedback (meaning people have been happy with his auctions), but there are a few red flags that pop up with this horn. The seller just MIGHT BE playing things a bit coy on ID'ing this horn. I used to have a Schmidt, and have played and/or seen a total of about FIVE of them, NONE of which looked like this horn. The tubing and layout is VERY close, but, for me, none of the detail bits and pieces ring true. I'm aware that many Schmidt-like horns have been made over the years; Conn had one and so did, I'm told, many other manufacturers. However, I'm not enough of an old horn expert to tell if this E-bay horn is simply a later model genuine Schmidt, or a pattern copy. For me, several red flags pop up on this horn. They are, MECHANICAL ROTARY VALVE LINKAGE: Perhaps they came this way, but none I've seen were so-equipped. LEADPIPE SHAPE: Starting at the mouthpiece, the leadpipe on the E-bay horn follows the curve of the bell-section (normal), but then, after only a short distance, it suddenly makes a turn across the middle of the horn, like a Holton or Conn leadpipe does. This is UNLIKE any of the 4-or-5 Schmidts I've seen before. On all the others, the leadpipe continues to follow the curve of the bell-section until THE VERY BOTTOM of the horn (as the player holds it), then turns upward and heads toward the main tuning slide. Or at least that's the way I remember things. LEADPIPE LENGTH: This Schmidt has a SHORTER leadpipe than the others I've seen, prompting the question, Is this a Schmidt at all? 3rd VALVE SLIDE ON F-SIDE: All the Schmidts I've seen used the common 3rd-valve-swan's-neck-swoop, on the F-side, and ONLY THE Bb slide was a simple 6-piece patchwork of 2-curves and 4-straight pieces. The E-bay horn has both 3rd valve slides of the 6-piece construction. VALVE LEVERS, BRACES, VALVE CAPS, ETC: All unfamiliar to me. I have my father-in-law's Schmidt single-F, which is a later model; born after WWII. Even so, most all the little widgets and details are very much like my old between-the-wars Schmidt double. But this horn has none of these familiar pieces. Also, if it's NOT a genuine Schmidt, then what-the-howdy is it? The Carl Fischer inscription on the bell appears on many true Schmidts and, as I understand it, ID's them as post WWII models, imported by Fischer. Perhaps Fischer also had his own Schmidts made? If not a true Schmidt, how good a horn would this one be? What say ye? jrc in SC ___ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
