Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[nicolas chavent]

e right to decide
>> their own rules of governance. I am fine with that.
>>
>>
>>> OSMF doesn't have a global code of conduct (yet ), but State of the
>>> Map conferences do. Same idea.
>>>
>>
>> State of the Map is a face to face event, not mailing list. It's normal
>> that there can be some rules to avoid problems with the country hosting the
>> event. A mailing list is of universal access. Therefore, what is acceptable
>> in one place is unacceptable in other. Some people of one area find normal
>> what others find rude. There is nothing bad in that. The huge majority of
>> us are good faith people. We just need to be a bit flexible, that's it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rafael.
>>
>>
>>> On 15 December 2017 19:43:43 CET, Dale Kunce <dale.ku...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the
>>> HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the
>>> HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted
>>> CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT
>>> communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in
>>> this space.
>>>
>>> My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to
>>> think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort
>>> to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative
>>> space to discuss.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner
>>> <russell.deff...@hotosm.org <mailto:russell.deff...@hotosm.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi all,
>>>
>>>     I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed
>>> by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than
>>> individuals.
>>>
>>> =Russ
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:danstowell%2b...@gmail.com>]
>>> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
>>> To: Rafael Avila Coya
>>> Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
>>> <mailto:osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org>; Mapa Nauta;
>>> hot@openstreetmap.org <mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of
>>> Conduct Reminder
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
>>> slightly
>>> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@
>>> mailing
>>> list.
>>>
>>> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
>>> to the
>>> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>>> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
>>> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>> to make clear
>>> whether
>>> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- sent from my mobile device
>>>
>>> Dale Kunce
>>> http://normalhabit.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> osmf-talk mailing list
>>> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> osmf-talk mailing list
>> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>>
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>


-- 
Nicolas Chavent
Les Libres Géographes
Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Projet GeOrchestra
Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91
Email: nicolas.chav...@gmail.com
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent
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Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[john whelan]

In the UK at the end of the evening there is a well known phrase used in
places that serve alcohol.

"Time gentlemen please."

The post that set this off had an element of frustration and it was
unfortunate that the subject was a sensitive one at that time.  With a bit
of good will it could have been accepted as such.

All programmers know that unless it is a one man band they write to the
specs and if a feature wasn't included in the specs then its wrong to blame
the programmer.  I used to be one and I recall once when asked why wasn't a
feature included by a high level manager and I had to reply I specifically
asked if it should be but was told by the business contact no it was not to
be included.

There is a cultural difference between HOT and OSM.  I seem to recall once
someone from an NGO say they didn't need OSM mappers they could provide
their own in maperthons.

If HOT and OSM can work together then there are gains for both sides.

Armchair mapping is only good to drop in the basic outlines.  HOT projects
are reasonably good at dropping in a highway network and identifying
settlements.  It really does need local expertise to finish the job.  So
micro grants, training on the ground all help and hopefully we'll start to
see a few internet cafes and bicycle repair shops mapped which is normal
OSM style mapping that gets enriched over time.

Can we accept there are some differences and please move on.  Can we work
on finding some areas where we agree?

Thanks John



On 15 December 2017 at 17:38, Rafael Avila Coya <ravilac...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi, Rory:
>
> My comments inline.
>
> On 15/12/17 20:19, Rory McCann wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with each mailing list having separate, per list moderation
>> and rules?
>>
>
> Well, the OSM community at large should approve each list rules. Quite a
> mess, having so many OSM fora. Don't you think so?
>
> Why not give HOT Inc moderation power of the hot@ list? If a group wants
>> to run its group according to specific rules (within some limits), what's
>> wrong with that?
>>
>
> Because HOT inc is an independent org. It's easier to have a list on their
> own, like the hot membership list and others, apart from the HOT inc
> tasking manager, github account, etc. Each org has the right to decide
> their own rules of governance. I am fine with that.
>
>
>> OSMF doesn't have a global code of conduct (yet ), but State of the Map
>> conferences do. Same idea.
>>
>
> State of the Map is a face to face event, not mailing list. It's normal
> that there can be some rules to avoid problems with the country hosting the
> event. A mailing list is of universal access. Therefore, what is acceptable
> in one place is unacceptable in other. Some people of one area find normal
> what others find rude. There is nothing bad in that. The huge majority of
> us are good faith people. We just need to be a bit flexible, that's it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
>
>> On 15 December 2017 19:43:43 CET, Dale Kunce <dale.ku...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the
>> HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the
>> HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted
>> CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT
>> communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.
>>
>> As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in
>> this space.
>>
>> My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to
>> think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort
>> to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative
>> space to discuss.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner
>> <russell.deff...@hotosm.org <mailto:russell.deff...@hotosm.org>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed
>> by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.
>>
>> =Russ
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:danstowell%2b...@gmail.com>]
>> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
>> To: Rafael Avila Coya
>> Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
>> <mailto:osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org>; Mapa Nauta;
>> hot@openstreetmap.org <mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
>> Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of
>> Conduct 

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Dale:

My comments inline.

On 15/12/17 20:41, Dale Kunce wrote:

Rafael,
Saying things like "x is childish" is not in keeping with good manners.


Maybe not with your own, cultural, manners. It's ok for me. That's what 
I thought when I read his email. Honestly.




I think the larger point is that this space is not "gentle."


Not gentle for you. Not for everybody.


We clearly 
need a CoC or at the very least to enforce the rules we (OSM) already 
have in place. OSM is not so special from every other internet 
community. Most software projects, data projects, and even media 
companies have open CoC and expectations for how you behave in there 
space. OSM is not unique, we need to set clear expectations about how to 
act in this space.


"CoC at the very least", no less.

Enforce... yes, always enforce.

Software projects, data projects and media are different. I refer you to 
Christoff Hoffmann's emails, where he explains you clearly why OSM is 
not comparable to those.


And how do you think we have to behave in OSM? Not only me. Africans, 
Asians, Southamericans... That won't lead anywhere, I assure you.




Is it so hard for people to be nice to one another?


No. It isn't really. I use to make that effort since back to 1991, not 
always with success. Human beings are not perfect. But human beings 
usually like freedom, including speech.


I think it behoves 
everyone in this community to make the affirmation of being nice to one 
another the same way we all made the commitment to the ODBL.


ODbL and freedom of speech in the same tense. Really? The first is law; 
the second is something we don't need legally (nor morally nor practically).


I think it 
behoves us all to call out bad behavior when we see it.


Again: what is bad behaviour. Some people here don't see bad behaviour 
in Ralf's email. Some others do. I respect fully both of the "groups".


Keep others 
honest and on topic not through enforcing a CoC but through the 
accepting the rules outlined in the CoC or etiquette guidelines.


I have already said that etiquette guidelines are that: guidelines. I 
haven't seen them enforced yet, and I would like to know who would 
enforce them, and with what mandate.


Respectfully,

Rafael.



On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Rafael Avila Coya 
> wrote:


Hi, Pete:

Yes, I forgot to say my opinion about the user who said he was
unsubscribing.

In my opinion, it's childish to quit an open forum, where anyone can
subscribe, just because somebody says something you don't like.
Specially when you see already some people telling you that no one
can control what others have to say.

If it was me, I would say it politely, like "I think not having a
tool to create squared buildings in iD is a pity, because if we had,
more squared buildings would be mapped". But what I, you or Dale
think about politeness is something that depend on many factors, the
most important of them cultural. Believe me when I tell you that I
didn't find it unpolite, and it passed unadverted to me.

We, the overall OSM community, are very gentle and pacific in
general, so we can govern ourselves without the need of any CoC. All
this thread tells me very clear how negative a CoC in OSM lists
would be.

Are we confortable with that? We can tell him things similar to
those that others said already to him, in the way "what one person
says, whether you don't like it, is what one person says, but not
what the rest thinks. And maybe he wasn't meaning that he hates you,
but he hates that you iD devs don't have a building tool like JOSM".
There are ways to say the same better and more clear. But what I am
clearly against is to put him under the foot of a CoC. Only the
name, CoC, scares me a lot.

I hope I make me more clear now.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:39, Pete Masters wrote:

Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the
list. But that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.

The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated
group of people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we
comfortable with that? Is it just the way it is and everyone has
to live with it?

Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further
discussion.

Cheers,

Pete



On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya"  >> wrote:

     Hi, Dan:

     The thing here is that hot@openstreetmap.org

     > is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing
     list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
 

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Ian Schuler]

I don't have a background in social behavior, but I've worked for a long
time on freedom of expression, so let me take a crack here.

I think that it is important to recognize to all sides of this argument are
pro-speech. All want to see the best ideas rise. But they have slightly
different worldviews about how best to do that.

One side sees any restrictions on speech as worrisome and a potential
slippery slope. They are concerned that rules are likely to be abused by
people to stifle conversations that are uncomfortable to some, but
important to have.

The other side sees this as a Wild West environment where only the most
aggressive voices get heard. When people behave harshly, even toward people
who can take it, it makes other people uncomfortable speaking up, and the
community suffers for loosing those voices.

Neither side is wrong. Both problematic at the extreme. I've found that
most people fall somewhere in the middle.


My natural inclinations are biased toward the first camp. I'm immediately
allergic to speech restrictions, especially imposed by a government of big
institution. That said... over time I've learned that CoC are really
important for a group of more than a few people. In practice, the
communities from which I've gained the most have a clear code of conduct,
are vocal about it, and are visible in enforcing. Those groups exposed me
to voices that I wasn't hearing in other places.


On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Milo van der Linden <m...@dogodigi.net>
wrote:

> I feel almost all friction on this list, right now and in the past, has
> been between "those that want to organize" and those that do not want to be
> organized.
>
> The hot mailinglist is the only one in the openstreetmap lists I see this
> happen.
>
> Maybe somebody with a background in social behaviour could explain this
> phenomenon, why it occurs and how it can be resolved?
>
> On Dec 15, 2017 7:44 PM, "Dale Kunce" <dale.ku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT
> CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is
> not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply
> here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels,
> including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.
>
> As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this
> space.
>
> My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think
> twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free
> speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.
>
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <
> russell.deff...@hotosm.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC
>> and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.
>>
>> =Russ
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
>> To: Rafael Avila Coya
>> Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org; Mapa Nauta; hot@openstreetmap.org
>> Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct
>> Reminder
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
>> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
>> list.
>>
>> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
>> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
>> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
>> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>>
>> Best
>> Dan
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>
>
>
> --
> sent from my mobile device
>
> Dale Kunce
> http://normalhabit.com
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Dale Kunce]

Rafael,
Saying things like "x is childish" is not in keeping with good manners.

I think the larger point is that this space is not "gentle." We clearly
need a CoC or at the very least to enforce the rules we (OSM) already have
in place. OSM is not so special from every other internet community. Most
software projects, data projects, and even media companies have open CoC
and expectations for how you behave in there space. OSM is not unique, we
need to set clear expectations about how to act in this space.

Is it so hard for people to be nice to one another? I think it behoves
everyone in this community to make the affirmation of being nice to one
another the same way we all made the commitment to the ODBL. I think it
behoves us all to call out bad behavior when we see it. Keep others honest
and on topic not through enforcing a CoC but through the accepting the
rules outlined in the CoC or etiquette guidelines.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Rafael Avila Coya 
wrote:

> Hi, Pete:
>
> Yes, I forgot to say my opinion about the user who said he was
> unsubscribing.
>
> In my opinion, it's childish to quit an open forum, where anyone can
> subscribe, just because somebody says something you don't like. Specially
> when you see already some people telling you that no one can control what
> others have to say.
>
> If it was me, I would say it politely, like "I think not having a tool to
> create squared buildings in iD is a pity, because if we had, more squared
> buildings would be mapped". But what I, you or Dale think about politeness
> is something that depend on many factors, the most important of them
> cultural. Believe me when I tell you that I didn't find it unpolite, and it
> passed unadverted to me.
>
> We, the overall OSM community, are very gentle and pacific in general, so
> we can govern ourselves without the need of any CoC. All this thread tells
> me very clear how negative a CoC in OSM lists would be.
>
> Are we confortable with that? We can tell him things similar to those that
> others said already to him, in the way "what one person says, whether you
> don't like it, is what one person says, but not what the rest thinks. And
> maybe he wasn't meaning that he hates you, but he hates that you iD devs
> don't have a building tool like JOSM". There are ways to say the same
> better and more clear. But what I am clearly against is to put him under
> the foot of a CoC. Only the name, CoC, scares me a lot.
>
> I hope I make me more clear now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> On 15/12/17 19:39, Pete Masters wrote:
>
>> Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the list. But
>> that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.
>>
>> The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated group of
>> people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we comfortable with that? Is it
>> just the way it is and everyone has to live with it?
>>
>> Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further discussion.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Pete
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya"  ravilac...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Dan:
>>
>> The thing here is that hot@openstreetmap.org
>>  is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing
>> list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
>> mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was
>> governed by the Spanish Government, for example.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rafael.
>>
>> On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
>> slightly
>> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@
>> mailing
>> list.
>>
>> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
>> to the
>> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
>> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>> > > to make clear
>> whether
>> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>>
>> Best
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> 
>>
>>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>



-- 
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce
http://normalhabit.com
___
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Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Pete:

Yes, I forgot to say my opinion about the user who said he was 
unsubscribing.


In my opinion, it's childish to quit an open forum, where anyone can 
subscribe, just because somebody says something you don't like. 
Specially when you see already some people telling you that no one can 
control what others have to say.


If it was me, I would say it politely, like "I think not having a tool 
to create squared buildings in iD is a pity, because if we had, more 
squared buildings would be mapped". But what I, you or Dale think about 
politeness is something that depend on many factors, the most important 
of them cultural. Believe me when I tell you that I didn't find it 
unpolite, and it passed unadverted to me.


We, the overall OSM community, are very gentle and pacific in general, 
so we can govern ourselves without the need of any CoC. All this thread 
tells me very clear how negative a CoC in OSM lists would be.


Are we confortable with that? We can tell him things similar to those 
that others said already to him, in the way "what one person says, 
whether you don't like it, is what one person says, but not what the 
rest thinks. And maybe he wasn't meaning that he hates you, but he hates 
that you iD devs don't have a building tool like JOSM". There are ways 
to say the same better and more clear. But what I am clearly against is 
to put him under the foot of a CoC. Only the name, CoC, scares me a lot.


I hope I make me more clear now.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:39, Pete Masters wrote:
Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the list. But 
that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.


The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated group of 
people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we comfortable with that? Is 
it just the way it is and everyone has to live with it?


Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further discussion.

Cheers,

Pete



On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya" > wrote:


Hi, Dan:

The thing here is that hot@openstreetmap.org
 is, as far as I know, an OSM mailing
list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was
governed by the Spanish Government, for example.

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
> to make clear
whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan


___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot




___
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Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Tejay Marsh]

The reason I joined this listserv was so that users could help each other with 
issues and problems they faced while helping to create maps for countries that 
don’t have the capabilities themselves. Out of the other listservs I am a part 
of, this one is by far the most troublesome, just like Milo said.

Since we are all individual HOT users and helpers with our own organizations 
that we represent, I agree that basic etiquette and common decency is 
necessary. However, I don’t believe a COC is automatically the answer.

We are all just trying to help see projects get completed. There’s no need for 
internal bickering among volunteers.

From: Milo van der Linden [mailto:m...@dogodigi.net]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:13 PM
To: Dale Kunce
Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org; Dan S; Mapa Nauta; hot@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

I feel almost all friction on this list, right now and in the past, has been 
between "those that want to organize" and those that do not want to be 
organized.

The hot mailinglist is the only one in the openstreetmap lists I see this 
happen.

Maybe somebody with a background in social behaviour could explain this 
phenomenon, why it occurs and how it can be resolved?

On Dec 15, 2017 7:44 PM, "Dale Kunce" 
<dale.ku...@gmail.com<mailto:dale.ku...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT CoC 
would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is not 
administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply here. 
Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels, including Tasking 
Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this space.

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think 
twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free 
speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner 
<russell.deff...@hotosm.org<mailto:russell.deff...@hotosm.org>> wrote:
Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and 
enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ

-Original Message-
From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com<mailto:danstowell%2b...@gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org<mailto:osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org>; Mapa 
Nauta; hot@openstreetmap.org<mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org<mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org<mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



--
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce
http://normalhabit.com


___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org<mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org>
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Milo van der Linden]

I feel almost all friction on this list, right now and in the past, has
been between "those that want to organize" and those that do not want to be
organized.

The hot mailinglist is the only one in the openstreetmap lists I see this
happen.

Maybe somebody with a background in social behaviour could explain this
phenomenon, why it occurs and how it can be resolved?

On Dec 15, 2017 7:44 PM, "Dale Kunce" <dale.ku...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT
CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is
not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply
here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels,
including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this
space.

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think
twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free
speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <
russell.deff...@hotosm.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC
> and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.
>
> =Russ
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
> To: Rafael Avila Coya
> Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org; Mapa Nauta; hot@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct
> Reminder
>
> Hi
>
> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
> list.
>
> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>
> Best
> Dan
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>



-- 
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce
http://normalhabit.com


___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Dale Kunce]

Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the HOT
CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the HOT list is
not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted CoC does not apply
here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT communication channels,
including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack, etc.

As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in this
space.

My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to think
twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort to curb free
speech but instead to build a positive collaborative space to discuss.

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner <
russell.deff...@hotosm.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC
> and enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.
>
> =Russ
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
> To: Rafael Avila Coya
> Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org; Mapa Nauta; hot@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct
> Reminder
>
> Hi
>
> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
> list.
>
> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>
> Best
> Dan
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>



-- 
sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce
http://normalhabit.com
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Pete Masters]

Hi Rafael, I see your point about the CoC and ownership of the list. But
that was only the third paragraph of Dale's email.

The fact remains that a person was told they are one of a hated group of
people and left the list. It's a loss. Are we comfortable with that? Is it
just the way it is and everyone has to live with it?

Personally, I am not comfortable with it and welcome further discussion.

Cheers,

Pete



On 15 Dec 2017 18:24, "Rafael Avila Coya"  wrote:

> Hi, Dan:
>
> The thing here is that hot@openstreetmap.org is, as far as I know, an OSM
> mailing list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another OSM
> mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was governed
> by the Spanish Government, for example.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
>> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
>> list.
>>
>> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
>> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
>> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>>  to make clear whether
>> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>>
>> Best
>> Dan
>>
>>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Russell Deffner]

Hi all,

I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed by CoC and 
enforced by an organized group rather than individuals.

=Russ

-Original Message-
From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
To: Rafael Avila Coya
Cc: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org; Mapa Nauta; hot@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
<https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot> to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Dan:

The thing here is that hot@openstreetmap.org is, as far as I know, an 
OSM mailing list, not HOT US inc.'s. I would find it weard that another 
OSM mailing list was governed by the Red Cross, and that talk-es was 
governed by the Spanish Government, for example.


Cheers,

Rafael.

On 15/12/17 19:11, Dan S wrote:

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
 to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan



___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[john whelan]

>but it's probably not clear to the average participant in the hot@ mailing
list whether they are automatically made a part of the HOT community.

I think there are two parts, those who subscribe to the current mailing
list and the "inner clique" who are invited to become a HOT member.

Realistically HOT calls upon ordinary OSM mappers to assist things like the
Ebola problem and the missing maps part using the tiles helps guide mapping
so its probably just an image problem than anything else.

Cheerio John

On 15 December 2017 at 13:11, Dan S  wrote:

> Hi
>
> It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
> disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
> list.
>
> Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
> average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
> automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
> clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>  to make clear whether
> it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>
> Best
> Dan
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Dan S]

Hi

It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e. slightly
disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@ mailing
list.

Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear to the
average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
 to make clear whether
it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.

Best
Dan

___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi Miriam:

I agree with you: I don't see the need to open yet another mailing list 
(although I will be happy if some decide to open a new one anyway), and 
to try to collaborate and unify efforts.


But this thread was started by Dale Kunce, President of HOT US inc, who 
says things like "I would like to take this opportunity to remind 
everyone of the Code of Conduct 
https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct. It will be enforced and 
offenders will be asked to leave our community", when OSM hasn't got any 
CoC.


That's quite worrying. And this makes me even more sure of what I said 
in another email:


"Any code of conduct will make people more or less autocensure. I can't 
see any interest of having that thing, unless for control."


Etiquette is just a series of guidelines that, as far as I know, have 
never been enforced by anyone. Correct me if I am wrong.


See for example the different answers to Ralf Stephan email [1]:

One user simply answered his question, saying a fast way to mass square 
buildings.


Another said he was offensive, and that any user (whether (s)he uses iD 
or JOSM or any other editor) is free not to square buildings anyway.


Me myself I thought his "I hate iD devs." just meant that not having a 
tool to easily create squared buildings in iD is a bad thing 
(disclaimer: I consider iD a good editor, with his pros and cons, and 
that can be improved, like JOSM and other editors, although I seldom use 
it - I prefer JOSM).


But others, including Dale Kunce, started to say that CoC would be 
applied, regardless of not being a list under the control of HOT US 
inc., and that's unacceptable. At least while OSM community is not under 
the rule of HOT's CoC.


Have all a wonderfull (and plenty of freedom of speech) weekend,

Rafael.

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2017-December/014063.html

On 15/12/17 17:25, Miriam Mapanauta wrote:
It will be great if we don't open more mailing lists and we try to 
collaborate and unify efforts in the current lists


Thanks,

M

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Mikel Maron > wrote:


The hot@openstreetmap.org  mailing
list is not subject to any more restrictions than any other OSMF
maintained list. It is not restricted to HOT members and partners,
nor is it subject to HOT governance.

Here is my response from yesterday clarifying, in case you missed it.

> Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under 
the etiquette and moderation guidelines at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette.
 The HOT Code of
Conduct applies to different domains and set of actors, most
especially Voting Members of HOT.

I don't see value in an additional mailing list myself, but rather
encourage better and more intentional use of the resources we have.

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Friday, December 15, 2017, 6:54:56 AM EST, > wrote:


Dear all,

This is actually another interesting topic!
If we move for a more general mailing list on international
development/humanitarian topics (not restricted to the HOT membership
and partners), I would suggest maybe not to use the "humanitarian" word
that is only describing a subset of this scope of activities.
Since development can be confusing with IT development, I would suggest
something like internatio...@openstreetmap.org


However creating doesn't always do the trick: we've seen it with the
hot-francophone mailing list that was created to generate more
exchanges
between Francophone countries (in particular Africa & Haiti) on
development topics and is not super successful because the communities
we wanted to exchange with are not big fans of mailing lists for
cultural reasons.

Best

Martin

On 15/12/2017 12:42, Milo van der Linden wrote:
 > Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a
 > humanitar...@openstreetmap.org
 mailing list that is not
subject of HOT
 > restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and
regulations
 > of other OSM mailinglists?
 >
 > 2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent
 > >:
 >
 >> Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap
 >> mailing-list and OSMF members,
 >>
 >> There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and
 >> OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of
 >> Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct
[1] will be
 >> enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an 

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Miriam Mapanauta]

It will be great if we don't open more mailing lists and we try to
collaborate and unify efforts in the current lists

Thanks,

M

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Mikel Maron  wrote:

> The hot@openstreetmap.org mailing list is not subject to any more
> restrictions than any other OSMF maintained list. It is not restricted to
> HOT members and partners, nor is it subject to HOT governance.
>
> Here is my response from yesterday clarifying, in case you missed it.
>
> > Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under
> the etiquette and moderation guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Etiquette. The HOT Code of Conduct applies to different domains
> and set of actors, most especially Voting Members of HOT.
>
> I don't see value in an additional mailing list myself, but rather
> encourage better and more intentional use of the resources we have.
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
> On Friday, December 15, 2017, 6:54:56 AM EST, 
> wrote:
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> This is actually another interesting topic!
> If we move for a more general mailing list on international
> development/humanitarian topics (not restricted to the HOT membership
> and partners), I would suggest maybe not to use the "humanitarian" word
> that is only describing a subset of this scope of activities.
> Since development can be confusing with IT development, I would suggest
> something like internatio...@openstreetmap.org
>
> However creating doesn't always do the trick: we've seen it with the
> hot-francophone mailing list that was created to generate more exchanges
> between Francophone countries (in particular Africa & Haiti) on
> development topics and is not super successful because the communities
> we wanted to exchange with are not big fans of mailing lists for
> cultural reasons.
>
> Best
>
> Martin
>
> On 15/12/2017 12:42, Milo van der Linden wrote:
> > Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a
> > humanitar...@openstreetmap.org mailing list that is not subject of HOT
> > restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and regulations
> > of other OSM mailinglists?
> >
> > 2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent
> > :
> >
> >> Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap
> >> mailing-list and OSMF members,
> >>
> >> There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and
> >> OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of
> >> Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1] will be
> >> enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap
> >> mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and
> >> development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic
> >> mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other
> >> discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the
> >> OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM
> >> members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as
> >> reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].
> >>
> >> It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap
> >> commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his
> >> own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has
> >> never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing
> >> list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own
> >> organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the
> >> conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
> >> It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of
> >> the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only
> >> perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of
> >> anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into
> >> the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the
> >> list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active
> >> across the humanitarian and development sectors.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Nicolas
> >>
> >> [1]: http://lists [3].openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> >> [2]: http://wiki [4].openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
> >> [3]: https://lists
> >> [5].openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging
> >>> remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an
> >>> outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this
> >>> list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater
> >>> impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a
> >>> huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission.
> >>>
> >>> One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from
> >>> this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. 

Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

[Mikel Maron]

The hot@openstreetmap.org mailing list is not subject to any more restrictions 
than any other OSMF maintained list. It is not restricted to HOT members and 
partners, nor is it subject to HOT governance.
Here is my response from yesterday clarifying, in case you missed it.
> Sure, a simple clarification. The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the 
> etiquette and moderation guidelines at 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette. The HOT Code of Conduct applies 
> to different domains and set of actors, most especially Voting Members of 
> HOT. 

I don't see value in an additional mailing list myself, but rather encourage 
better and more intentional use of the resources we have.

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Friday, December 15, 2017, 6:54:56 AM EST,  wrote: 
 
 
 Dear all,

This is actually another interesting topic!
If we move for a more general mailing list on international 
development/humanitarian topics (not restricted to the HOT membership 
and partners), I would suggest maybe not to use the "humanitarian" word 
that is only describing a subset of this scope of activities.
Since development can be confusing with IT development, I would suggest 
something like internatio...@openstreetmap.org

However creating doesn't always do the trick: we've seen it with the 
hot-francophone mailing list that was created to generate more exchanges 
between Francophone countries (in particular Africa & Haiti) on 
development topics and is not super successful because the communities 
we wanted to exchange with are not big fans of mailing lists for 
cultural reasons.

Best

Martin

On 15/12/2017 12:42, Milo van der Linden wrote:
> Could we ask the OSMF if we can set up a
> humanitar...@openstreetmap.org mailing list that is not subject of HOT
> restrictions and open to everyone under the same rules and regulations
> of other OSM mailinglists?
> 
> 2017-12-14 18:40 GMT+01:00 nicolas chavent
> :
> 
>> Dear all HOT Us Inc members, subscribers of the hot at openstreetmap
>> mailing-list and OSMF members,
>> 
>> There's is something weird in Dale Kunce (HOT US Inc President and
>> OSMF member) in this email announcing that the HOT US Inc Code of
>> Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1] will be
>> enforced on the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list (an OpenStreetMap
>> mailing list to discuss uses of OSM in the humanitarian and
>> development sectors [1]) which like other OpenStreetMap thematic
>> mailing lists [2] (software development, tagging etc ...) and other
>> discussions fora (wiki, forum etc) belong to the commons of the
>> OpenStreetMap project and is regulated via the OSMF and the OSM
>> members and is yet not subject to agreed upon and enforced CoC as
>> reminded by the last OSMF election discussions [3].
>> 
>> It would be beneficial for the regulations of the OpenStreetMap
>> commons, that the President of HOT US Inc refrain from enforcing his
>> own organization's conversational policy and procedures (which has
>> never been voted by the HOT US Inc membership) over an OSM mailing
>> list and narrow his focus and actions on the resources of his own
>> organizations (membership mailing list, tools etc) or the
>> conversations of the HOT US Inc membership.
>> It would also be beneficial to assess and look at the moderation of
>> the hot at openstreetmap mailing-list from a non HOT US Inc only
>> perspective, shall we want this list to be the mailing list of
>> anyone OpenStreeMap members (and not yet members) interested into
>> the use of OpenStreetMap diversified and decentralized and not the
>> list of only-one organization of the OpenStreetMap ecosystem active
>> across the humanitarian and development sectors.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Nicolas
>> 
>> [1]: http://lists [3].openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> [2]: http://wiki [4].openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>> [3]: https://lists
>> [5].openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/subject.html
>> 
>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Dale Kunce 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Earlier today someone on this list made some rude and disparaging
>>> remarks about the iD developers. This is not the first time an
>>> outside supporting group has been attacked by members of this
>>> list. Your words have meaning. Your words can have far greater
>>> impact than you believe. One individual, not elected, can have a
>>> huge negative impact that directly affects HOT's mission.
>>> 
>>> One of HOT's biggest fans and supporters has unsubscribed from
>>> this list, rightly so, because of these attacks. The individual
>>> was and is key to helping the OSM community with important
>>> technology tools that we need to map better.
>>> 
>>> I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the
>>> Code of Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct [1]. It
>>> will be enforced and offenders will be asked to leave our
>>> community if you cannot