Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Gonzalo Odiard]

Dan,

You was qualified as a troll because you said we should divide the 3M
number by 10 and you assume we were deceiving.

See the Wikipedia definition of troll:
"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows
discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by
posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online
community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the
deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of
otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

You asked your question in a thread started to discuss how improve the
content
of sugarlabs.org site.
The site was not updated on a time, then if is true a percentage of
machines can be broken now,
was not crazy correlate the number of machines sold with our software to
number of users
at the moment the site was created.
But we also know there are cases where other hardware is used with Sugar,
like here [1]
and we know the numbers in Uruguay only, are more than 300.000 machines,
then,
your comment looks completely wrong.

At times I also think we are "too optimistic", but we need optimism
to work in a project like this. Don't assume bad intentions.

The worst part is I have tried to start a discussion abut how to improve
the web site,
and instead of that we discuss about one line in the old web site,
and do not have any proposal for improvement. And that is the effect of
trolling,
stop others and not add anything positive to the conversation.

Everybody here can contribute in a different way: programming, testing,
go to remote places and put solar panels in schools, write docs.
But not everybody _want_ contribute.

Gonzalo

[1] http://www.fenix951.com.ar/nuevo_2013/noticia.php?id=4552


On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Dan Tenason  wrote:

> A few weeks ago I raised the question about how phrase three million daily
> users was calculated. The general line of thought in a thread on
> sugar-devel was we don't know but we think it is an optimistic figure based
> on the total number of laptops OLPC produced. Further analysis is hard and
> we can't be bothered to do it. Furthermore, anyone who questions the number
> is a troll.
>
> It would seem natural that an education project which promotes critical
> thinking would substantiate its own claims. If any organization tries  to
> bury the numbers, one should ask why they are doing so.
>
> --
> Dan Tenason
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



-- 
Gonzalo Odiard

SugarLabs - Software for children learning
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Dan Tenason]

 I work as a researcher for a foundation which received a grant proposal for a 
laptop project. There were several issues which needed clarification. I suppose 
that can be seen as trolling.

Thanks and good luck with you project.


Friday, April 17, 2015 8:11 AM -03:00 from Gonzalo Odiard 
:
>Dan,
>
>You was qualified as a troll because you said we should divide the 3M number 
>by 10 and you assume we were deceiving.
> 
>See the Wikipedia definition of troll:
>"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord 
>on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting 
>inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community 
>(such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of 
>provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting 
>normal on-topic discussion.[3]"
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>
>You asked your question in a thread started to discuss how improve the content 
>of  sugarlabs.org site.
>The site was not updated on a time, then if is true a percentage of machines 
>can be broken now, 
>was not crazy correlate the number of machines sold with our software to 
>number of users
>at the moment the site was created.
>But we also know there are cases where other hardware is used with Sugar, like 
>here [1]
>and we know the numbers in Uruguay only, are more than 300.000 machines, then,
>your comment looks completely wrong.
>
>At times I also think we are "too optimistic", but we need optimism
>to work in a project like this. Don't assume bad intentions.
>
>The worst part is I have tried to start a discussion abut how to improve the 
>web site,
>and instead of that we discuss about one line in the old web site,
>and do not have any proposal for improvement. And that is the effect of 
>trolling,
>stop others and not add anything positive to the conversation.
>
>Everybody here can contribute in a different way: programming, testing,
>go to remote places and put solar panels in schools, write docs. 
>But not everybody _want_ contribute.
>
>Gonzalo
>
>[1]  http://www.fenix951.com.ar/nuevo_2013/noticia.php?id=4552
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Dan Tenason  < dan.tena...@mail.ru > wrote:
>>A few weeks ago I raised the question about how phrase three million daily 
>>users was calculated. The general line of thought in a thread on sugar-devel 
>>was we don't know but we think it is an optimistic figure based on the total 
>>number of laptops OLPC produced. Further analysis is hard and we can't be 
>>bothered to do it. Furthermore, anyone who questions the number is a troll.
>>
>>It would seem natural that an education project which promotes critical 
>>thinking would substantiate its own claims. If any organization tries  to 
>>bury the numbers, one should ask why they are doing so.
>>
>>-- 
>>Dan Tenason
>>___
>>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>
>-- 
>Gonzalo Odiard
>
>SugarLabs - Software for children learning 
>___
>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Gonzalo Odiard]

Really?

On January you wrote:

"I am following OLPC as part of a research paper on open source
organizations."

http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2015-January/017152.html

Followed a thread with replies from different members of the community and
you finished with:

"Thank you for the information. It is interesting to study how projects
evolve and devolve over time."

I don't know what believe now.
Good luck with your research :)

Gonzalo


On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Dan Tenason  wrote:

> I work as a researcher for a foundation which received a grant proposal
> for a laptop project. There were several issues which needed clarification.
> I suppose that can be seen as trolling.
>
> Thanks and good luck with you project.
>
>
> Friday, April 17, 2015 8:11 AM -03:00 from Gonzalo Odiard <
> godi...@sugarlabs.org>:
>
>   Dan,
>
> You was qualified as a troll because you said we should divide the 3M
> number by 10 and you assume we were deceiving.
>
> See the Wikipedia definition of troll:
> "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows
> discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by
> posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online
> community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the
> deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of
> otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>
> You asked your question in a thread started to discuss how improve the
> content
> of sugarlabs.org site.
> The site was not updated on a time, then if is true a percentage of
> machines can be broken now,
> was not crazy correlate the number of machines sold with our software to
> number of users
> at the moment the site was created.
> But we also know there are cases where other hardware is used with Sugar,
> like here [1]
> and we know the numbers in Uruguay only, are more than 300.000 machines,
> then,
> your comment looks completely wrong.
>
> At times I also think we are "too optimistic", but we need optimism
> to work in a project like this. Don't assume bad intentions.
>
> The worst part is I have tried to start a discussion abut how to improve
> the web site,
> and instead of that we discuss about one line in the old web site,
> and do not have any proposal for improvement. And that is the effect of
> trolling,
> stop others and not add anything positive to the conversation.
>
> Everybody here can contribute in a different way: programming, testing,
> go to remote places and put solar panels in schools, write docs.
> But not everybody _want_ contribute.
>
> Gonzalo
>
> [1] http://www.fenix951.com.ar/nuevo_2013/noticia.php?id=4552
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Dan Tenason  > wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago I raised the question about how phrase three million daily
> users was calculated. The general line of thought in a thread on
> sugar-devel was we don't know but we think it is an optimistic figure based
> on the total number of laptops OLPC produced. Further analysis is hard and
> we can't be bothered to do it. Furthermore, anyone who questions the number
> is a troll.
>
> It would seem natural that an education project which promotes critical
> thinking would substantiate its own claims. If any organization tries  to
> bury the numbers, one should ask why they are doing so.
>
> --
> Dan Tenason
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> 
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gonzalo Odiard
>
> SugarLabs - Software for children learning
>  ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> 
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>


-- 
Gonzalo Odiard

SugarLabs - Software for children learning
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Adam Holt]

On May 15, 2015 10:44 PM, "Dan Tenason"  wrote:
>
> The Sugar Labs website is still stating  "Sugar's Activities are used
every school day by nearly 3 million children." Mr Daley stated this number
is based on Total number of XOs shipped as reported by OLPC + total number
of copies of Sugar on a Stick downloaded.
>
> laptop.org  states that about 15,000 XO are in Hati. I was wondering if
Mr. Holt, who is active in Hati, is willing to comment on the number of
laptops in daily use in Hati.

Beyond having met the director (Guy Serge Pompilus) in 2011, I've never
been involved with the Haitian government XO project, which I believe
(judging from public documents) received ~14,000 XO's around 2008.  It is
known that well over 1000 other XO's have arrived in Haiti since then.  How
many of these ~15,000+ total are in very active use is almost impossible to
say, particularly as Haiti has more sunshine than sunshine laws.  But
certainly a minority at this point, judging from Sora Edwards-Thro's
informal investigations.

> laptop.org states that about 900,000 XOs are in Peru. I was wondering if
Mr. Silva, who is active in Peru, is willing to comment on the number of
laptops in daily use in Peru.
>
> laptop.org states that about 15,000 XOs are in Birmingham, Alabama. Could
anyone comment on the number of those laptops in use?

I spontaneously visited Birmingham in 2012 to try to understand this
better.  Perhaps 14,000 XO's were fully given to kids to keep after the
official government program was shut down sometime around 2010, not far off
from the original plan's "child ownership" goals FWIW.  Anna Schoolfield
(longtime volunteer) might have some idea how many of those ~14K are in
active personal use.  Then again she might not -- it's years later and
these laptops are distributed very widely now.

> Finally latop.org states that about 850,000 XOs are in Uruguay.  Research
in Uruguay indicates that in 2012 about 4.1% of students used their XOs all
or most days.
>
> --
> Dan Tenason
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Sean DALY]

Dan - if you are sincerely interested in the numbers, why don't you write
to the education ministries? In serious research, as in serious journalism,
you need to consult official sources.

Sean Daly (no "e")


On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Dan Tenason  wrote:

> The Sugar Labs website is still stating  "Sugar’s Activities
>  are
> used every school day by nearly 3 million children." Mr Daley stated this
> number is based on Total number of XOs shipped as reported by OLPC + total
> number of copies of Sugar on a Stick downloaded.
>
> laptop.org  states that about 15,000 XO are in Hati. I was wondering if
> Mr. Holt, who is active in Hati, is willing to comment on the number of
> laptops in daily use in Hati.
>
> laptop.org states that about 900,000 XOs are in Peru. I was wondering if
> Mr. Silva, who is active in Peru, is willing to comment on the number of
> laptops in daily use in Peru.
>
> laptop.org states that about 15,000 XOs are in Birmingham, Alabama. Could
> anyone comment on the number of those laptops in use?
>
> Finally latop.org states that about 850,000 XOs are in Uruguay.  Research
> in Uruguay indicates that in 2012 about 4.1% of students used their XOs all
> or most days.
>
> --
> Dan Tenason
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Adam Holt]

On May 16, 2015 6:29 AM, "Sean DALY"  wrote:
>
> Dan - if you are sincerely interested in the numbers, why don't you write
to the education ministries? In serious research, as in serious journalism,
you need to consult official sources.

Ground-truthing takes years but yes is possible for anybody who takes an
anthropological approach, starting in-country especially: developing
insider sources within Ministries of Education, within local newspapers,
within the logistics/support chain, identifying influential but
behind-the-scenrs teachers/parents/kids/churches, etc.

Heroic, struggling people inevitably emerge if one digs deep enough.  In
particular, former workforce (paid and unpaid) can be very sincerely
forthcoming, having committed their lives, often getting to the truth
faster -- profoundly committed to their countries evolving and learning
from past implementation/support models, one decade to the next...

(Conversely, the lazy but all too common approach of asking any single
source did-tablets-kill-XO's-in-country-ABC will rarely get to the bottom
of anything)

> Sean Daly (no "e")
>
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Dan Tenason  wrote:
>>
>> The Sugar Labs website is still stating  "Sugar's Activities are used
every school day by nearly 3 million children." Mr Daley stated this number
is based on Total number of XOs shipped as reported by OLPC + total number
of copies of Sugar on a Stick downloaded.
>>
>> laptop.org  states that about 15,000 XO are in Hati. I was wondering if
Mr. Holt, who is active in Hati, is willing to comment on the number of
laptops in daily use in Hati.
>>
>> laptop.org states that about 900,000 XOs are in Peru. I was wondering if
Mr. Silva, who is active in Peru, is willing to comment on the number of
laptops in daily use in Peru.
>>
>> laptop.org states that about 15,000 XOs are in Birmingham, Alabama.
Could anyone comment on the number of those laptops in use?
>>
>> Finally latop.org states that about 850,000 XOs are in Uruguay.
Research in Uruguay indicates that in 2012 about 4.1% of students used
their XOs all or most days.
>>
>> --
>> Dan Tenason
>>
>> ___
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Sebastian Silva]

On 15/05/15 21:44, Dan Tenason wrote:
>
> laptop.org states that about 900,000 XOs are in Peru. I was wondering
> if Mr. Silva, who is active in Peru, is willing to comment on the
> number of laptops in daily use in Peru.

Perhaps like Adam, I am first and foremost a volunteer, who has been
often critical of central government deployment.

There was a wide, official survey in 2013, whose results summary are
available here  [1].
On page 21 it says:
Laptop Educativa Primaria:  64% operative, 36% inoperative /(XO-1 in
rural schools)/
Laptop Educativa Secundaria: 71% operative, 29% inoperative /(XO-1.5 in
towns, without Sugar)/

The machines themselves have proven quite durable. Two pages later, 52
and 53 percent of respondents state that the cause for inoperativeness
was "deprogrammed/deconfigured". Personally, I attribute this to the
misguided DRM locking mechanism (wrongly called "security"). I can't
think of another practical way to "unconfigure" a laptop to the point of
it being inoperative. This is my informal perception from the field as
well: The main reason laptops aren't used is this locking mechanism.

Our own (SomosAzucar+SugarLabs Platform Teams) first version
grassroots-community driven operating system update, which was
distributed officially by the Ministry in 2014, has a monitoring
mechanism that is able to tell us how many machines have been installed
which have ever been online on the Internet. At this time there are over
27300 laptops who have ever called home. Considering low connectivity
penetration, and the fact that this OS is aimed only at primary, rural
schools, we are quite pleased with the adoption of this project.

Certainly it is still possible to have a massive impact in Peru, thru
these laptops. Our own volunteer efforts are aiming at setting up a
permaculture station/learning laboratory in the rainforest region, where
we can have a place to experiment and work with volunteers in the field,
with different kinds of technologies applied to the environment and
common good [2].

Our logic is, the value of the project is not the the sum of value of
each individual equipment, it is potentially the value of a network of
children who have cameras and connectivity at their disposal. What is
the value of a network of children, actively sharing information about
their surroundings? It is not measurable, I think. This is the
inspiration that continues to fuel our efforts, regardless of the hardware.

As a technical volunteer in the field, my time is of a lot of value,
especially since we are in the middle of an expedition.
So I would ask you to share more about your own project so that we can
better give you relevant information and try to help you be useful to
the ecosystem.

Regards,
Sebastian

[1] http://educaciontic.perueduca.pe/?p=810
[2] http://pe.sugarlabs.org/ir/ClaVi

-- 
I+D SomosAzucar.Org
"icarito" #somosazucar en Freenode IRC
"Nadie libera a nadie, nadie se libera solo. Los seres humanos se liberan en 
comunión" - P. Freire

___
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Sora Edwards-Thro]

In Haiti, OLPC sent laptops to four towns: Kenscoff, Lascahobas, Thomazeau,
and Jacmel. I've visited three of them to try and figure out what happened
to the XOs. Here's what I found:

https://projectrive.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/kenscoff-special-report/
https://projectrive.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/special-report-thomazeau/
https://projectrive.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/worth-it/

On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:26 AM, Sebastian Silva 
wrote:

>
> On 15/05/15 21:44, Dan Tenason wrote:
>
>
> laptop.org states that about 900,000 XOs are in Peru. I was wondering if
> Mr. Silva, who is active in Peru, is willing to comment on the number of
> laptops in daily use in Peru.
>
>
> Perhaps like Adam, I am first and foremost a volunteer, who has been often
> critical of central government deployment.
>
> There was a wide, official survey in 2013, whose results summary are
> available here  [1].
> On page 21 it says:
> Laptop Educativa Primaria:  64% operative, 36% inoperative *(XO-1 in
> rural schools)*
> Laptop Educativa Secundaria: 71% operative, 29% inoperative *(XO-1.5 in
> towns, without Sugar)*
>
> The machines themselves have proven quite durable. Two pages later, 52 and
> 53 percent of respondents state that the cause for inoperativeness was
> "deprogrammed/deconfigured". Personally, I attribute this to the misguided
> DRM locking mechanism (wrongly called "security"). I can't think of another
> practical way to "unconfigure" a laptop to the point of it being
> inoperative. This is my informal perception from the field as well: The
> main reason laptops aren't used is this locking mechanism.
>
> Our own (SomosAzucar+SugarLabs Platform Teams) first version
> grassroots-community driven operating system update, which was distributed
> officially by the Ministry in 2014, has a monitoring mechanism that is able
> to tell us how many machines have been installed which have ever been
> online on the Internet. At this time there are over 27300 laptops who have
> ever called home. Considering low connectivity penetration, and the fact
> that this OS is aimed only at primary, rural schools, we are quite pleased
> with the adoption of this project.
>
> Certainly it is still possible to have a massive impact in Peru, thru
> these laptops. Our own volunteer efforts are aiming at setting up a
> permaculture station/learning laboratory in the rainforest region, where we
> can have a place to experiment and work with volunteers in the field, with
> different kinds of technologies applied to the environment and common good
> [2].
>
> Our logic is, the value of the project is not the the sum of value of each
> individual equipment, it is potentially the value of a network of children
> who have cameras and connectivity at their disposal. What is the value of a
> network of children, actively sharing information about their surroundings?
> It is not measurable, I think. This is the inspiration that continues to
> fuel our efforts, regardless of the hardware.
>
> As a technical volunteer in the field, my time is of a lot of value,
> especially since we are in the middle of an expedition.
> So I would ask you to share more about your own project so that we can
> better give you relevant information and try to help you be useful to the
> ecosystem.
>
> Regards,
> Sebastian
>
> [1] http://educaciontic.perueduca.pe/?p=810
> [2] http://pe.sugarlabs.org/ir/ClaVi
>
> --
> I+D SomosAzucar.Org
> "icarito" #somosazucar en Freenode IRC
> "Nadie libera a nadie, nadie se libera solo. Los seres humanos se liberan en 
> comunión" - P. Freire
>
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Numbers

[Adam Holt]

On May 16, 2015 10:29 PM, "Sora Edwards-Thro"  wrote:
>
> In Haiti, OLPC sent laptops to four towns: Kenscoff, Lascahobas,
Thomazeau, and Jacmel.

As far as I know, the OLPC nonprofits (OLPCF & OLPCA) had little to do with
selecting these four Haiti towns, and their in-country logistics.  IADB and
Haiti's central govt were much more involved in deployment
planning/management/oversight, despite some brief early efforts by OLPC/MIT
consultants to get Haitian Creole content translation moving in 2008.

Despite detailed IADB-centric planning in 2008 especially, execution of
those plans was already widely mocked even before the earthquake struck in
2010, with a few too many parallels to Birmingham.

Sebastian is quite correct XO laptop hardware's high durability continues
to surpass expectations 7 years later, in Haiti and many other places.
Whereas Birmingham's volunteers/staff had to work thru a quite high number
of repair issues.

Tragically many XO laptops lacked electrical power in Haiti's govt
deployment, sadly rarely turned on for this reason especially, but also for
other reasons...

Haiti govt insiders/alums more full retrospective would be valuable some
day, adding to Sora's spot excavation insights below.  (Tim Falconer and
Bill Stelzer used to meet many of these official implementation alums
around Port-au-Prince: a diversity of their enigmatic stories deserve to be
told, there are lessons to be learned here, before it's too late--)

Of course those who love numbers will be frustrated in Haiti, a fascinating
society and stunningly beautiful landscape, but a nearly-failed state that
does not have census-electoral clarity, nor any agreement whether 100,000
or 300,000 died in the quake :/

> I've visited three of them to try and figure out what happened to the
XOs. Here's what I found:
>
> https://projectrive.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/kenscoff-special-report/
> https://projectrive.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/special-report-thomazeau/
> https://projectrive.wordpress.com/2014/07/27/worth-it/
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:26 AM, Sebastian Silva <
sebast...@fuentelibre.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 15/05/15 21:44, Dan Tenason wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> laptop.org states that about 900,000 XOs are in Peru. I was wondering
if Mr. Silva, who is active in Peru, is willing to comment on the number of
laptops in daily use in Peru.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps like Adam, I am first and foremost a volunteer, who has been
often critical of central government deployment.
>>
>> There was a wide, official survey in 2013, whose results summary are
available here [1].
>> On page 21 it says:
>> Laptop Educativa Primaria:  64% operative, 36% inoperative (XO-1 in
rural schools)
>> Laptop Educativa Secundaria: 71% operative, 29% inoperative (XO-1.5 in
towns, without Sugar)
>>
>> The machines themselves have proven quite durable. Two pages later, 52
and 53 percent of respondents state that the cause for inoperativeness was
"deprogrammed/deconfigured". Personally, I attribute this to the misguided
DRM locking mechanism (wrongly called "security"). I can't think of another
practical way to "unconfigure" a laptop to the point of it being
inoperative. This is my informal perception from the field as well: The
main reason laptops aren't used is this locking mechanism.
>>
>> Our own (SomosAzucar+SugarLabs Platform Teams) first version
grassroots-community driven operating system update, which was distributed
officially by the Ministry in 2014, has a monitoring mechanism that is able
to tell us how many machines have been installed which have ever been
online on the Internet. At this time there are over 27300 laptops who have
ever called home. Considering low connectivity penetration, and the fact
that this OS is aimed only at primary, rural schools, we are quite pleased
with the adoption of this project.
>>
>> Certainly it is still possible to have a massive impact in Peru, thru
these laptops. Our own volunteer efforts are aiming at setting up a
permaculture station/learning laboratory in the rainforest region, where we
can have a place to experiment and work with volunteers in the field, with
different kinds of technologies applied to the environment and common good
[2].
>>
>> Our logic is, the value of the project is not the the sum of value of
each individual equipment, it is potentially the value of a network of
children who have cameras and connectivity at their disposal. What is the
value of a network of children, actively sharing information about their
surroundings? It is not measurable, I think. This is the inspiration that
continues to fuel our efforts, regardless of the hardware.
>>
>> As a technical volunteer in the field, my time is of a lot of value,
especially since we are in the middle of an expedition.
>> So I would ask you to share more about your own project so that we can
better give you relevant information and try to help you be useful to the
ecosystem.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sebastian
>>
>> [1] http://educaciontic.perueduca.pe/?p=810
>> [

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Dan Tenason]

> Dan - if you are sincerely interested in the numbers, why don't you write
> to the education ministries? In serious research, as in serious journalism,
> you need to consult official sources.

> Sean Daly (no "e") I would like to thank everyone for their responses. They 
> findings of Mr Holt, Ms Edwards-Thro, and Mr Silva correlate with my own 
> findings in those countries, less than 100% of XO laptops are in daily use.

How long will the website will continue to state 3 million users when that 
number, and the method used to calculate it, have been shown to be overstated. 
Is dismissing the questioner as a troll an academically honest solution to 
resolving the discrepancy?

-- 
Dan Tenason___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Gonzalo Odiard]

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Dan Tenason  wrote:

> > Dan - if you are sincerely interested in the numbers, why don't you write
> > to the education ministries? In serious research, as in serious journalism,
> > you need to consult official sources.
>
> > Sean Daly (no "e")
>
> I would like to thank everyone for their responses. They findings of Mr
> Holt, Ms Edwards-Thro, and Mr Silva correlate with my own findings in those
> countries, less than 100% of XO laptops are in daily use.
>
> How long will the website will continue to state 3 million users when that
> number, and the method used to calculate it, have been shown to be
> overstated. Is dismissing the questioner as a troll an academically honest
> solution to resolving the discrepancy?
>
>
Until the web site is not updated, will be as is today.
I see the numbers are important for you, but we want redesign the site,
and need volunteers to prepare the content and the design.
(You already see my email a time ago about this)

We have many reasons to change the web site, we need people to work on that.
And we want a professional work, that is the reason I don't try to modify
it,
because I am a developer, and developer suck at design ;/

And the content is not easy, in the last days, a few members of the
community
worked in the content for the SoaS page, (
https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/)
and that took a lot of mail interchanges and time.

Gonzalo


> --
> Dan Tenason
>
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>



-- 
Gonzalo Odiard

SugarLabs - Software for children learning
___
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Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Dan Tenason]

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:39 AM -03:00 from Gonzalo Odiard 
:
>
>
>On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Dan Tenason  < dan.tena...@mail.ru > wrote:
>>> Dan - if you are sincerely interested in the numbers, why don't you write
> to the education ministries? In serious research, as in serious journalism,
> you need to consult official sources.

> Sean Daly (no "e") I would like to thank everyone for their responses. They 
> findings of Mr Holt, Ms Edwards-Thro, and Mr Silva correlate with my own 
> findings in those countries, less than 100% of XO laptops are in daily use.
>>
>>How long will the website will continue to state 3 million users when that 
>>number, and the method used to calculate it, have been shown to be 
>>overstated. Is dismissing the questioner as a troll an academically honest 
>>solution to resolving the discrepancy?
>>
>
>Until the web site is not updated, will be as is today.
>I see the numbers are important for you, but we want redesign the site, 
>and need volunteers to prepare the content and the design.
>(You already see my email a time ago about this)
>
>We have many reasons to change the web site, we need people to work on that.
>And we want a professional work, that is the reason I don't try to modify it,
>because I am a developer, and developer suck at design ;/
>
>And the content is not easy, in the last days, a few members of the community
>worked in the content for the SoaS page, ( 
>https://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/ )
>and that took a lot of mail interchanges and time.
This change does not require a complete rewrite of the site. Just a simple 
deletion of an incorrect, and often quoted, statement on the landing page.

Dan
>
>Gonzalo
>>-- 
>>Dan Tenason
>>___
>>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>>IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
>
>
>
>-- 
>Gonzalo Odiard
>
>SugarLabs - Software for children learning 
>___
>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Bernie Innocenti]

On 05/27/2015 03:20 PM, Dan Tenason wrote:
> This change does not require a complete rewrite of the site. Just a
> simple deletion of an incorrect, and often quoted, statement on the
> landing page.

You initially stated that you were following OLPC as part of a research
paper on open source organizations. But in another post you said that
you work for a foundation which received a grant for a laptop project.

So, which one it is? Could you disclose your accademic affiliations and
how this research is being funded?

-- 
 _ // Bernie Innocenti
 \X/  http://codewiz.org
___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Caryl Bigenho]

+1

> To: dan.tena...@mail.ru; godi...@sugarlabs.org
> From: ber...@codewiz.org
> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 21:50:51 -0400
> CC: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
> Subject: Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers
> 
> On 05/27/2015 03:20 PM, Dan Tenason wrote:
> > This change does not require a complete rewrite of the site. Just a
> > simple deletion of an incorrect, and often quoted, statement on the
> > landing page.
> 
> You initially stated that you were following OLPC as part of a research
> paper on open source organizations. But in another post you said that
> you work for a foundation which received a grant for a laptop project.
> 
> So, which one it is? Could you disclose your accademic affiliations and
> how this research is being funded?
> 
> -- 
>  _ // Bernie Innocenti
>  \X/  http://codewiz.org
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
  ___
IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Dan Tenason]

 Monday, June  1, 2015 9:50 PM -04:00 from Bernie Innocenti 
:
>On 05/27/2015 03:20 PM, Dan Tenason wrote:
>> This change does not require a complete rewrite of the site. Just a
>> simple deletion of an incorrect, and often quoted, statement on the
>> landing page.
>
>You initially stated that you were following OLPC as part of a research
>paper on open source organizations. But in another post you said that
>you work for a foundation which received a grant for a laptop project.
>
>So, which one it is? Could you disclose your accademic affiliations and
>how this research is being funded?
For now I would like to maintain my status as anonymous whistle-blower (or 
troll depending on your point of view.) No projects which feature Sugar nor One 
Laptop per Child are currently under consideration for funding by us. If one 
comes up, I'll recuse myself.

On a personal note, I am interested in how participants of a project which 
promotes critical thinking have reacted when presented with facts which 
conflict with their preferred  narrative. Time permitting, I'll continue 
exploring that dynamic.

Dan 

>
>-- 
> _ // Bernie Innocenti
> \X/  http://codewiz.org

___
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Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Caryl Bigenho]

Criticism !=  Critical Thinking.  This whole discussion is pointless! You are 
arguing about the current use of laptops that are as much as 8 years old. Yes, 
many of them, maybe even most of them, are still usable and in use. What other 
platform can say that? Tell me and I'll buy stock in the company.
I heard an interesting piece about trolling on NPR today. Hummm…..
Caryl
P.S. If you aren't familiar with C, "!=" represents "is not equal to."

From: dan.tena...@mail.ru
To: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 21:46:17 +0300
Subject: Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers


Monday, June  1, 2015 9:50 PM -04:00 from Bernie Innocenti :

On 05/27/2015 03:20 PM, Dan Tenason wrote:

> This change does not require a complete rewrite of the site. Just a

> simple deletion of an incorrect, and often quoted, statement on the

> landing page.


You initially stated that you were following OLPC as part of a research

paper on open source organizations. But in another post you said that

you work for a foundation which received a grant for a laptop project.


So, which one it is? Could you disclose your accademic affiliations and

how this research is being funded?
For now I would like to maintain my status as anonymous whistle-blower (or 
troll depending on your point of view.) No projects which feature Sugar nor One 
Laptop per Child are currently under consideration for funding by us. If one 
comes up, I'll recuse myself.

On a personal note, I am interested in how participants of a project which 
promotes critical thinking have reacted when presented with facts which 
conflict with their preferred  narrative. Time permitting, I'll continue 
exploring that dynamic.

Dan 



-- 

 _ // Bernie Innocenti

 \X/  http://codewiz.org




___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
  ___
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http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Dan Tenason]

Wednesday, June  3, 2015 5:24 PM -06:00 from Caryl Bigenho 
:
>Criticism !=  Critical Thinking.  This whole discussion is pointless! You are 
>arguing about the current use of laptops that are as much as 8 years old. Yes, 
>many of them, maybe even most of them, are still usable and in use. What other 
>platform can say that? Tell me and I'll buy stock in the company.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that Sugar is above reproach because 
so many people benefit because the XO's last so long and so many are still in 
use. Ironically, the issue being challenged is how Sugar Labs calculates and 
communicates how many people use Sugar.

Dan

___
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Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Caryl Bigenho]

Don't read into my comments things that aren't there. I assumed, as I am 
certain many others have, that you were talking about OLPC and the use of the 
XO machines. Read through your posts and I think you will see why this is the 
case.


As for Sugar, there are many reasons why it is as good as, or even better than, 
any other learning platforms for children. I am a retired teacher with 30+ 
years experience so I know where-of I speak. The problem with Sugar has been 
that, until very recently, it was only practical on the XO laptops and the 
numbers you have seen refer mostly to that use. Sugar-on-a-Stick was an option 
as was running it in a virtual machine, but there were many problems, mostly 
with the virtual machines not with Sugar.


A new initiative has been undertaken by OLPC France called "Sugarizer" that 
aims to bring Sugar to "any device." It is in its infancy but shows great 
promise of bringing some of the creative, cooperative, project based, learning 
experiences Sugar has to offer. 


There are many ways one can help with the development of Sugarizer. If you are 
truly interested in using technology to help bring quality learning experiences 
to children everywhere, I suggest that you see if you can find yourself a niche 
where you can help expand and perfect Sugarizer. You can get more information 
here: http://sugarizer.org  


Caryl

From: dan.tena...@mail.ru
To: cbige...@hotmail.com
CC: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: Re[2]: [IAEP] sugar numbers
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 06:04:29 +0300





Wednesday, June  3, 2015 5:24 PM -06:00 from Caryl Bigenho 
:

Criticism !=  Critical Thinking.  This whole discussion is pointless! You are 
arguing about the current use of laptops that are as much as 8 years old. Yes, 
many of them, maybe even most of them, are still usable and in use. What other 
platform can say that? Tell me and I'll buy stock in the company.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that Sugar is above reproach because 
so many people benefit because the XO's last so long and so many are still in 
use. Ironically, the issue being challenged is how Sugar Labs calculates and 
communicates how many people use Sugar.

Dan



  ___
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IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep

Re: [IAEP] sugar numbers

[Dan Tenason]

Friday, June  5, 2015 10:35 PM -06:00 from Caryl Bigenho :
>Don't read into my comments things that aren't there. I assumed, as I am 
>certain many others have, that you were talking about OLPC and the use of the 
>XO machines. Read through your posts and I think you will see why this is the 
>case.
>
>As for Sugar, there are many reasons why it is as good as, or even better 
>than, any other learning platforms for children. I am a retired teacher with 
>30+ years experience so I know where-of I speak. The problem with Sugar has 
>been that, until very recently, it was only practical on the XO laptops and 
>the numbers you have seen refer mostly to that use. Sugar-on-a-Stick was an 
>option as was running it in a virtual machine, but there were many problems, 
>mostly with the virtual machines not with Sugar.
>
>A new initiative has been undertaken by OLPC France called "Sugarizer" that 
>aims to bring Sugar to "any device." It is in its infancy but shows great 
>promise of bringing some of the creative, cooperative, project based, learning 
>experiences Sugar has to offer. 
>
>There are many ways one can help with the development of Sugarizer. If you are 
>truly interested in using technology to help bring quality learning 
>experiences to children everywhere, I suggest that you see if you can find 
>yourself a niche where you can help expand and perfect Sugarizer. You can get 
>more information here:  http://sugarizer.org    To use your expression. Sugar 
>!= technology to bring quality learning experiences to children everywhere. 
>Just as criticism is only one component of critical thinking, Sugar is just 
>one example of an educational technology. At this point I feel my time and 
>energy is better spent leveling the playing field among competing projects.

BTW, please notice the second sentence of  http://sugarizer.org .     "used 
every day by nearly 3 million children around the world." The marketing quote 
from the sugarlabs site is repeated. Pretty soon it is accepted as simple fact 
rather then a rough assumption of all XO sales + all Sugar downloads.

Dan.
>
>Caryl
>
>
>--
>From: dan.tena...@mail.ru
>To: cbige...@hotmail.com
>CC: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org
>Subject: Re[2]: [IAEP] sugar numbers
>Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 06:04:29 +0300
>
>
>
>
>Wednesday, June  3, 2015 5:24 PM -06:00 from Caryl Bigenho 
>:
>>Criticism !=  Critical Thinking.  This whole discussion is pointless! You are 
>>arguing about the current use of laptops that are as much as 8 years old. 
>>Yes, many of them, maybe even most of them, are still usable and in use. What 
>>other platform can say that? Tell me and I'll buy stock in the company.
>If I understand correctly, you are saying that Sugar is above reproach because 
>so many people benefit because the XO's last so long and so many are still in 
>use. Ironically, the issue being challenged is how Sugar Labs calculates and 
>communicates how many people use Sugar.
>
>Dan
>
>___
>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
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