Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 09/06/2006 at 12:13 AM, Alan Altmark [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: VM allows the sysprog to set the line editing defaults. The most reasonable are: CHARDEL OFF LINEND # ESCAPE LINEDEL OFF. Is there any reaon not to use Field Mark for LINEND? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 09/06/2006 at 01:22 AM, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Why? How? Command stacking. I assume that was what Alan had in mind as well. People today are quite accustomed to graphic workstations where no displayable character is usurped for editing functions. ISPF usurps a character, and I find it useful. For that matter, so do various shells. I customarily just SET LINEDIT OFF. De gustibus non disputandem est. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
In a recent note, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) said: Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 11:18:35 -0300 Is there any reaon not to use Field Mark for LINEND? I'd love to. Depending on terminal emulator, keyboard, and map. I tried to do the same for ISPF, but it wouldn't let me. Apparently ISPF has a set of characters it considers acceptable candidates for LINEND, not including Field Mark. IIRC, I edited my PROFILE data set and set LINEND to Field Mark regardless. It may or may not work, but at least I recovered use of semicolon without sacrificing another of the valuable characters in the list. And I found an old CMS PROFILE that I used for CMS with a serial terminal, perhaps in the age of 300 baud modems. In it, I had set all the line editing characters to CTRL-modified keys. CMS is far more tolerant than ISPF -- if the programmer wants to set his line delete character to SPACE, it's his gun and his foot. -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
On Thursday, 09/07/2006 at 11:18 ZW3, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VM allows the sysprog to set the line editing defaults. The most reasonable are: CHARDEL OFF LINEND # ESCAPE LINEDEL OFF. Is there any reaon not to use Field Mark for LINEND? Because my fingers refuse to push the Field Mark key after 25 years pushing # ? :-) That is an excellent idea (works, too!). Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
In a recent note, Alan Altmark said: Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:13:24 -0400 - Line editing ought to be disabled by default on graphic terminals. For for full-screen applications, yes: not for line-mode input. By coincidence, the userid and password fields on the VM logo are being changed to stop line editing since there is no ambiguity in what is At first, it sounds like a good idea. essentially a full-screen app. But if you press enter and go back into line mode, then the default VM line editing characters (those specified or defaulted in SYSTEM CONFIG) are in effect, even before you log on. But then you had to spoil it. The feature is useful only on keyboard-printer terminals. The feature is useful for line-mode input on a 3270. BTDTGTS. Why? How? VM allows the sysprog to set the line editing defaults. The most reasonable are: CHARDEL OFF LINEND # ESCAPE LINEDEL OFF. Character and '#' is not reasonable because it is a national character valid in filenames in both VM and MVS. It took an APAR against XEDIT to get LOAD FOO#BAR ft fm to work because there's no way to disable LINEND before doing a LOAD. IIRC, the APAR caused XEDIT on entry to use the setting of CP LINEND. line delete aren't necessary any more and the default of CHARDEL @ just They were never necessary; they're no longer even useful. creates havoc with internet addressing. Users are free to set their own values to override the defaults. The most reasonable values are all OFF in order to minimize the initial learning effort and astonishment factor for new users. As they gain sophistication, they are free to set their own values ... People today are quite accustomed to graphic workstations where no displayable character is usurped for editing functions. VM is simply an anachronism in this respect. Likewise, ISPF's default of ';' as a command separator is an irritant; I disabled it so long ago that I forget how. I want to be able to search for a target that contains ';', and IIRC, ';' was not treated as an ordinary character even in a quoted string. I customarily just SET LINEDIT OFF. Every character on the keyboard is too precious to squander on editing functions of relatively little value on a graphic terminal. if I could use CTRL characters for the editing functions, I might feel differently. -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
On Wednesday, 09/06/2006 at 01:22 CST, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: essentially a full-screen app. But if you press enter and go back into line mode, then the default VM line editing characters (those specified or defaulted in SYSTEM CONFIG) are in effect, even before you log on. But then you had to spoil it. :-) You can't please everyone. Today is not your day. Tomorrow is not looking good, either! The feature is useful only on keyboard-printer terminals. The feature is useful for line-mode input on a 3270. BTDTGTS. Why? How? VM allows the sysprog to set the line editing defaults. The most reasonable are: CHARDEL OFF LINEND # ESCAPE LINEDEL OFF. Character and '#' is not reasonable because it is a national character valid in filenames in both VM and MVS. It took an APAR against XEDIT to get LOAD FOO#BAR ft fm to work because there's no way to disable LINEND before doing a LOAD. IIRC, the APAR caused XEDIT on entry to use the setting of CP LINEND. My definition of reasonable obviously differs from yours. :-) My view is from the compatibility perspective. It is ALSO reasonable, as you note later, to turn LINEND OFF and ESCAPE OFF if you do not have a user population that would be upset to find a change in behavior. For new VM installations, OFF is fine. For me, I have to have LINEND turned on. XAUTOLOG user SYNCH#SET SECUSER user * is just too valuable to me, and my exec to handle it for me isn't on every system I use. (sigh) line delete aren't necessary any more and the default of CHARDEL @ just They were never necessary; they're no longer even useful. Eh? They were useful in the days of typewriter terminals and teletypes, when a physical backspace would have just obscured whatever you subsequently typed. There was no white-out on a 3215! But I agree that once the CRT came into being and we all learned to use it, CHARDEL and LINEDEL went the way of the dodo Maybe the next time we think about re-versioning z/VM we'll consider changing those two to OFF. But I think LINEND OFF and ESCAPE OFF would cause a riot. If you can convince the folks on the IBMVM mailing list ;-) Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
Alan Altmark wrote: once the CRT came into being and we all learned to use it, CHARDEL and LINEDEL went the way of the dodo Maybe the next time we think about re-versioning z/VM we'll consider changing those two to OFF. But they didn't vanish quietly. The console task maintained printable CHARDEL values long past the time when both the line mode and CRT consoles came with the backspace capability. We handled those by zapping the DCM backspace field to x'16' (backspace). Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, VT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 09/04/2006 at 08:53 AM, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps autoskip should operate in the reverse direction, I'm not sure that is the best solution, but the problem is certainly a nuisance. o Of late, companies are requiring ever more complex passwords, with mixed-case, numerics, and special characters. VM line editing usurps several special characters; to enter them literally, they must be prefixed with ''. But the password field in VM full screen logon is only 8 characters wide, allowing no extra space for quoting characters. Does VM line editing apply? I thought that was strictly for command and line-mode input. - Line editing ought to be disabled by default on graphic terminals. For for full-screen applications, yes: not for line-mode input. The feature is useful only on keyboard-printer terminals. The feature is useful for line-mode input on a 3270. BTDTGTS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
On Tuesday, 09/05/2006 at 10:11 ZW3, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o Of late, companies are requiring ever more complex passwords, with mixed-case, numerics, and special characters. VM line editing usurps several special characters; to enter them literally, they must be prefixed with ''. But the password field in VM full screen logon is only 8 characters wide, allowing no extra space for quoting characters. Does VM line editing apply? I thought that was strictly for command and line-mode input. - Line editing ought to be disabled by default on graphic terminals. For for full-screen applications, yes: not for line-mode input. By coincidence, the userid and password fields on the VM logo are being changed to stop line editing since there is no ambiguity in what is essentially a full-screen app. But if you press enter and go back into line mode, then the default VM line editing characters (those specified or defaulted in SYSTEM CONFIG) are in effect, even before you log on. The feature is useful only on keyboard-printer terminals. The feature is useful for line-mode input on a 3270. BTDTGTS. VM allows the sysprog to set the line editing defaults. The most reasonable are: CHARDEL OFF LINEND # ESCAPE LINEDEL OFF. Character and line delete aren't necessary any more and the default of CHARDEL @ just creates havoc with internet addressing. Users are free to set their own values to override the defaults. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone, and Vista (Was: 27x132?))
Edward There is (still I guess) an aspect of the VM logon panel, copied in the NetView logon panel[1], which, to my mind indicated a lack of understanding of human factors in the implementation of the 3270 data stream and its effect on the operator experience. When deciding whether or not to use the autoskip bit in the attribute character which defined the end of an input field, my opinion is that it should depend on whether the data to be entered necessarily fills the entire input field or may not. If the input data is guaranteed to fill the field, then the use of the autoskip bit is appropriate. Ideally such a field will be part of a sequence of such fields so that reaching for the tab key will not be necessary within the whole sequence. If the input data is *not* guaranteed to fill the field, then the use of the autoskip bit is *not* appropriate. The operator will be assured that use of the tab key will always be required after having keyed the current character data. If such a field is part of a sequence of fields, it may even be better ergonomics to require the use of the tab key for every one of the fields - even if one or two meet the guaranteed to fill criterion. The VM and NetView logon panels use the autoskip bit universally as if the programmer thought neat (or cool) when reading up on the 3270 data stream capabilities for the first time and never missed an opportunity to use it - it's when you are irritated by such tricks that such evil thoughts come to mind. The irritations arose actually with NetView. In general I always used the tab key after entering a userid and then my password. If the userid I happened to be using filled the whole field - I guess it would happen to have been eight characters long - I used the tab key as usual - I'd have been concentrating on the keyboard as now since I'm a fairly fast - and clumsy - two finger man - and the password would have appeared for the world and his dog to see in the PROFILE field. I believe something similar happened with the VM logon panel. Now, of course, some will say, But surely you have only one userid and so how can this ever be a problem; you will either need to use the tab key or you will never need to use the tab key. Such people lack imagination. If you are a systems programmer in charge of - I'll stick to NetView although I believe the same would happen in VM - an automation system, you may well need to log on as one of the automation operators in order to sort out a problem and the automation userids could have a variety of lengths with some being eight characters long. Ideally there should have been an IBM corporate directive to impose the principle I outlined above - especially where failure to apply the principle could expose passwords. As it is it's as if there was a de facto opposite corporate directive. And I wonder how many vendor products have copied VM and NetView assuming that IBM always leads the way to best practice. Chris Mason [1] I can't recall whether or not the mistake was also present in the TSO/E logon panel. It's easy to check. - Original Message - From: Edward Jaffe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Sunday, 03 September, 2006 5:11 PM Subject: Re: APAR OA16111, BlueZone, and Vista (Was: 27x132?) ... The VM guys did a *much* better job on their logon panel, which *was* official VM from the start. They obviously understood 3270 a whole lot better. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone,
In a recent note, Chris Mason said: Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:50:21 +0200 If the input data is guaranteed to fill the field, then the use of the autoskip bit is appropriate. Ideally such a field will be part of a sequence of such fields so that reaching for the tab key will not be necessary within the whole sequence. If the input data is *not* guaranteed to fill the field, then the use of the autoskip bit is *not* appropriate. The operator will be assured that use of the tab key will always be required after having keyed the current character data. If such a field is part of a sequence of fields, it may even be better ergonomics to require the use of the tab key for every one of the fields - even if one or two meet the guaranteed to fill criterion. A couple things: o If I recognize by kinesthesis that I've mistyped a character, my reflexive recovery is to press the backspace key and overtype the erroneous character with the correct one. If the mistyped character was the last in an autoskip field, the same reflex operates, but with bad effect. I backspace into a nonmodifiable field; the keyboard locks at the next keystroke; and the audible alert starts sounding. I'd be better off without autoskip. Perhaps autoskip should operate in the reverse direction, also, so the backspace would place me at the character I wish to overtype. We've all been spoiled by the behavior of text entry fields in browsers which scroll the field when more characters than their displayed widths are typed. But emulating 3270 behavior feels ever more like providing a buggy whip for the space shuttle. o Of late, companies are requiring ever more complex passwords, with mixed-case, numerics, and special characters. VM line editing usurps several special characters; to enter them literally, they must be prefixed with ''. But the password field in VM full screen logon is only 8 characters wide, allowing no extra space for quoting characters. - Entry fields ought to be wider to accommodate quoting characters. - Line editing ought to be disabled by default on graphic terminals. The feature is useful only on keyboard-printer terminals. I turn it off early in my PROFILE EXEC, but, of course, this is ineffective at the logon screen. -- gil -- StorageTek INFORMATION made POWERFUL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Autoskip bit in logon panels (Was APAR OA16111, BlueZone, and Vista (Was: 27x132?))
Chris Mason wrote: If the input data is guaranteed to fill the field, then the use of the autoskip bit is appropriate. Ideally such a field will be part of a sequence of such fields so that reaching for the tab key will not be necessary within the whole sequence. I agree with the above. My comment about the superiority of the VM logon panel to that supplied by TSO was never intended as a comment on the usability of the panel, but rather on the superior support contained therein for 3270 displays larger than 24x80. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
