CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Rick Fochtman]

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal 
argument here where I'm consulting.


Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be 
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?


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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Stocker, Herman]

I like it FB LRECL 80 so I can see it on terminal screen without having to
shift right and left.  We only support 80 wide displays.  If I could get a
display that would handle 255 with and still be readable I would go for the
VB Lrecl 255. 

Herman

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal
argument here where I'm consulting.

Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?



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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Veilleux, Jon L]

>From a purely maintenance view, it seems to me that staying with FB 80
would be easier than trying to page right and left through a VB 255 file
in an ISPF edit session.
Jon 


Jon L. Veilleux 
veilleu...@aetna.com 
(860) 636-2683 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal
argument here where I'm consulting.

Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?

--
Rick
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Lionel B Dyck]

My preference is LRECL of 255 however IBM and most (all) vendors ship 
their rexx libraries as LRECL 80 so the SYSEXEC concatenation becomes the 
main issue.

I still develop with VB/255 but I keep the content within the 80 character 
limit so that I can easily copy what I do into a FB/80 for sharing.

hth

Lionel B. Dyck, Consultant/Specialist 
Enterprise Platform Services, Mainframe Engineering 
KP-IT Enterprise Engineering 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:15:19 -0600, Rick Fochtman wrote:

>I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal
>argument here where I'm consulting.
>
>Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be
>RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?
>
No.  They should be kept in z/OS Unix files where that stuff is
irrelevant.

I recall a Users Guide/GIM at the announcement of TSO/E, when
Rexx was first to be available on MVS/XA.  That recommended
RECFM=VB, eschewing line numbers, and liberal use of mixed case
text for legibility.

Alas, 029 keypunch inertia appears to have prevailed and IBM
now distributes EXECs RECFM=FB,LRECL=80.  You have the choice
of the motivation of that early document, or compatibility
with mid-20th century technology.

-- gil

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Richards, Robert B.]

As long as they are not mixed, either one is fine.

Like Lionel, I prefer 255. But when consulting, I go with what is
already set up.

Probably 95% of what I have written is less than 80 per line though. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal 
argument here where I'm consulting.

Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be 
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?

-- 
Rick
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Bob Shannon]

VB 255 was very common years ago. One of the reasons is that Stage 1 Clist 
processing will scan to the end of the line looking for another command. One 
could eliminate a lot of overhead by using VB. Personally, I have always been 
an FB 80 guy.

Bob Shannon
Rocket Software

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Dave Salt]

In my experience the vast majority of sites use RECFM=FB. I'm not saying that's 
right or wrong, just that it seems to be that way. And because of that, if 
someone compiles a REXX program into an FB SYSEXEC data set, the CEXEC will be 
in FB format. This type of exec cannot be directly copied to a VB data set as 
it just won't work. And of course you can't mix FB and VB SYSEXEC data sets 
together. So, if someone at an FB site takes their compiled REXX programs with 
them (or gives them to) a VB site, they won't work unless they're converted to 
VB format. There's an IBM utility that will do this, but it would be a pain to 
have to convert lots of execs. So, this might be one reason to simply go along 
with whatever the majority is doing, which happens to be FB.
 
Dave Salt

SimpList(tm) - try it; you'll get it!   
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm   



> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:15:19 -0600
> From: rfocht...@ync.net
> Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> 
> I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal 
> argument here where I'm consulting.
> 
> Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be 
> RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?
> 
> -- 
> Rick
> --
> Remember that if you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes.
> 
> --
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> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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_

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Lizette Koehler]

My prefrence is FB 80 80x

That way it fits on my screen and I do not have to scroll left and right all 
the time.

Downside, I cannot indent the way I like within 80 col.

Lizette


-Original Message-
>From: Rick Fochtman 
>Sent: Dec 17, 2008 12:15 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy
>
>I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal 
>argument here where I'm consulting.
>
>Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be 
>RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?
>
>-- 
>Rick
>--
>Remember that if you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes.
>
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Scott Ford]

I dont know, I have used both LRECLs successfully. At 255 the lines obivously 
in rexx can be longer, I don't know how internally the REXX interpreter is 
handling the different
recfms and LRECLs
 
Scott J Ford
 





From: Rick Fochtman 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:15:19 PM
Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal argument 
here where I'm consulting.

Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be 
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?

-- Rick
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Schwarz, Barry A]

If I remember correctly, the RACF DBSYNC tool generates a REXX with
lines longer that 80.

-Original Message-
From: Rick Fochtman 
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:15 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal
argument here where I'm consulting.

Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Martin Kline]

"Should?" They 'should' be whatever best fits your environment. 

Having worked with both, I prefer the VB/255 format, which works well with 
my 43X132 display. Generally, I don't extend data beyond 124 columns, as 
that's what edit normally displays. That's 72% longer displayed data than the 
80-column displays allow, allowing for nicely formatted code most of the time.

-Original Message-
From: Rick Fochtman 
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:15 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

I'm probably going to start a firestorm here, but it's for an internal
argument here where I'm consulting.

Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be
RECFM=VB,LRECL=255? Why?

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Walt Farrell]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:50:41 -0800, Schwarz, Barry A
 wrote:

>If I remember correctly, the RACF DBSYNC tool generates a REXX with
>lines longer that 80.

DBSYNC creates a VB format output file for its REXX exec containing the
commands, and by default will place up to 210 bytes of text into each line,
continuing commands across lines as needed. 

You can change the maximum line length to any value 255 or less.  However,
DBSYNC will only split commands at blanks, so if some string in the command
is longer than the max length, and contains no blanks, it won't be split and
you'll get a longer line.  That processing could be changed, if anyone
really needed to enforce lines shorter than some value.

However, the exec that it creates is a sequential data set, and not one that
you would put into a concatenation, so you'd only need a shorter length for
ease of editing.

-- 
  Walt Farrell, CISSP
  IBM STSM, z/OS Security Design

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Ted MacNEIL]

It depends on concatenations and the use of ALTLIB.
When I last supported an ISPF/TSO environment, IBM was the only vendor that 
shipped CLISTs in both LRECL=80 & 255.
I don't know if they do that anymore.
If you have a lot of files, sent by vendors, that are in one or the other, and 
you would be still concatenating, then go with the majority.
If you are using ALTLIB (I hope I have the correct command -- I haven't written 
REXX for a couple of years, and CLIST for aeons), it shouldn't matter.

-
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Ted MacNEIL]

>From a purely maintenance view, it seems to me that staying with FB 80 would 
>be easier than trying to page right and left through a VB 255 file in an ISPF 
>edit session.

Two things:
1. When I was using VB-255, I never wrote CLIST code beyond the screen size.
2. You can get longer screen sizes (Mod-5 & customised)

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Rexx was first to be available on MVS/XA.

I thought it was first with ESA (3.1.3 0e).

But, I could be wrong.

I thought I was wrong once before; it turned out I was mistaken.
(8-{]}

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Mark Vitale]

I use VB/255 for in-house stuff; 80 columns is like
coding with mittens on.  I have ISPF and 
my terminal emulator set up to display 132 columns.

I leave SYSEXEC at FB/80, then use ALTLIB and 
SYSUEXEC to access my VB/255 tool set. 

For anything that goes to customers, I convert to 
FB/80 so they don't have to deal with SYSEXEC
concatenation issues. 

Mark Vitale
Senior Software Engineer
PERFMAN
One Bethlehem Plaza
Bethlehem, PA 18018-5784
Office: 610.865.0300
Mobile: 484.550.8758
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <494933a7.7010...@ync.net>, on 12/17/2008
   at 11:15 AM, Rick Fochtman  said:

>Should REXX/CLIST datasets be RECFM=FB,LRECL=80, or should they be
>RECFM=VB,LRECL=255?

That's more of a political question than a technical question. I prefer
VBM, but keep in mind that you can't mix RECFM within concatenations. As a
practical matter, that means that whatever choice you make for SYSEXEC and
SYSPROC will affect what you do for everything else.

ALTLIB can ameliorate the concatenation issue, but not eliminate
it.

>Why?

Some shops only support 80 column displays; I consider them to be
Luddites.

I find 73 columns to be restrictive. YMMV.

--
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<0d91bd2a037c4943af38da4abed6c409087e6...@njpshfsexmb01.campus.corp.cendant.org>,
on 12/17/2008
   at 12:27 PM, "Stocker, Herman"  said:

>I like it FB LRECL 80 so I can see it on terminal screen without having
>to shift right and left.  We only support 80 wide displays.  If I could
>get a display that would handle 255 with and still be readable I would go
>for the VB Lrecl 255. 

What are you using for a display? I've been running for decades with sizes
wider than 80, my eyes are terrible and I can still read, e.g., a
132-column screen.

FWIW, I find 120 columns to be wide enough for most editing, although I've
been known to use 160 as circumstances dictated.
 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<4a25f3adc7d4cd4388704e36280459c3090ed...@mddp-exch-003.aeth.aetna.com>,
on 12/17/2008
   at 12:40 PM, "Veilleux, Jon L"  said:

>>From a purely maintenance view, it seems to me that staying with FB 80
>would be easier than trying to page right and left through a VB 255 file
>in an ISPF edit session.

But not as easy as running a 160-wide ISPF session and not having to page
right and left. I see no excuse for restricting users to 80-wide in this
day and age, nor have I for decades.
 
-- 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<1145112817-1229549985-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-13204583...@bxe348.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>,
on 12/17/2008
   at 09:39 PM, Ted MacNEIL  said:

>I thought it was first with ESA (3.1.3 0e).

You thought wrong. It was included in TSO/E[1] for both MVS/XA and
MVS/ESA.

[1] But not in an MVS/370 release of TSO/E.
 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<9241235.1229542809134.javamail.r...@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>,
on 12/17/2008
   at 02:40 PM, Lizette Koehler  said:

>My prefrence is FB 80 80x

>That way it fits on my screen

That only makes sense if your screen is 80-wide, which is so 1960's.
 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Scott Ford]

I started working REXX first on VM/SP in 198?? don't remember the
Ted,

I started working REXX first on VM/SP in 198?? don't remember the exact yr I 
think 1984 or 1985
 
Scott J Ford
 





From: Ted MacNEIL 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:39:50 PM
Subject: Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

>Rexx was first to be available on MVS/XA.

I thought it was first with ESA (3.1.3 0e).

But, I could be wrong.

I thought I was wrong once before; it turned out I was mistaken.
(8-{]}

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Ted MacNEIL]

Sorry, I was talking about when it was ported from VM to MVS.
It's been on VM since 1978.
It's been on MVS since (?).
I say ESA -- somebody else said XA.
--Original Message--
From: Scott Ford
Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
ReplyTo: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Sent: Dec 17, 2008 22:22
Subject: Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

I started working REXX first on VM/SP in 198?? don't remember the
Ted,

I started working REXX first on VM/SP in 198?? don't remember the exact yr I 
think 1984 or 1985
 
Scott J Ford
 





From: Ted MacNEIL 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 4:39:50 PM
Subject: Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

>Rexx was first to be available on MVS/XA.

I thought it was first with ESA (3.1.3 0e).

But, I could be wrong.

I thought I was wrong once before; it turned out I was mistaken.
(8-{]}

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Schwarz, Barry A
> 
> If I remember correctly, the RACF DBSYNC tool generates a REXX with
> lines longer that 80.

Also the IRRRID00 utility; it "requires" RECFM=VB,LRECL=255.

-jc-

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Chase, John wrote:

>Also the IRRRID00 utility; it "requires" RECFM=VB,LRECL=255.

No. As documented in 'Security Administrator's Guide':

For OUTDD DD, the specs are 'RECFM=VB' and 'LRECL at least 259'. 

If you specify shorter LRECL, IRRRID00 changes it to 259. IRRRID00 also 
verifies that the BLKSIZE is LRECL plus 4.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 12/19/2008
   at 12:35 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht  said:

>If you specify shorter LRECL, IRRRID00 changes it to 259. IRRRID00 also 
>verifies that the BLKSIZE is LRECL plus 4.

Please tell me that you mean *at least* LRECL+4, or that you're joking!
 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

>Please tell me that you mean *at least* LRECL+4, or that you're joking!

No, seriously. I'm quoting directly from this:

"z/OS Security Server RACF, Security Administrator's Guide"

Document Number SA22-7683-08

Paragraph: IRRRID00 Job Control Statements


OUTDD DD  Defines the single sequential output data set. The output of 
  IRRRID00 is a set of variable length records that contain the
  commands needed to delete or alter the references to the IDs.
  This data set must be allocated as a variable length data set,   
  with a logical record length (LRECL) of at least 259. If a   
  shorter LRECL is supplied, IRRRID00 changes the LRECL to 259.
   
  When IRRRID00 opens the OUTDD data set, it verifies that the 
  block size of the data set is at least 4 greater than the LRECL. 



I am NOT joking.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Ted MacNEIL]

>>>Please tell me that you mean *at least* LRECL+4, or that you're joking!

I don't understand the 'joke'.
It DOES say 'at least'.


>When IRRRID00 opens the OUTDD data set, it verifies that the block size of the 
>data set is at least 4 greater than the LRECL. 

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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<177863805-1229705705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-21011063...@bxe348.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>,
on 12/19/2008
   at 04:55 PM, Ted MacNEIL  said:

>It DOES say 'at least'.

The manual does; his message did not.
 
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Re: CLIST/REXX Philosophy

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 12/19/2008
   at 10:49 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht  said:

>No, seriously. I'm quoting directly from this:

That doesn't match what you wrote. "BLKSIZE is LRECL plus 4" is quite
different from "block size of the data set is at least 4 greater than the
LRECL." In fact, they used the same phrase that I asked about: *at least*.
 
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ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:27:21 -0500, Stocker, Herman wrote:

>I like it FB LRECL 80 so I can see it on terminal screen without having to
>shift right and left.  We only support 80 wide displays.  If I could get a
>display that would handle 255 with and still be readable I would go for the
>VB Lrecl 255.
>
Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
as XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly
easier.  Users preferring to shift right and left could leave
the option disabled (as is likewise possible in XEDIT).

-- gil

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Veilleux, Jon L]

That would be GREAT! Especially for those of us Dinos that prefer Ishell
for working in USS and end up in ISPF edit for files that are longer
than 80. 


Jon L. Veilleux 
veilleu...@aetna.com 
(860) 636-2683 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:27:21 -0500, Stocker, Herman wrote:

>I like it FB LRECL 80 so I can see it on terminal screen without having

>to shift right and left.  We only support 80 wide displays.  If I could

>get a display that would handle 255 with and still be readable I would 
>go for the VB Lrecl 255.
>
Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines, as
XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly easier.  Users
preferring to shift right and left could leave the option disabled (as
is likewise possible in XEDIT).

-- gil

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Howard Brazee]

On 17 Dec 2008 09:58:06 -0800, paulgboul...@aim.com (Paul Gilmartin)
wrote:

>Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
>display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
>as XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly
>easier.  Users preferring to shift right and left could leave
>the option disabled (as is likewise possible in XEDIT).

It's "Legacy".   We're dinosaurs here, and while dinosaurs were
successful & lasted much, much longer than the newcomers will, we are
not adapting to the future.

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Joe Aulph]

80 byte LRECL, it was good enough for my phone bill in 1972, it's good
enough for my CLISTs today..

; o )

Is it Friday yet?

Joe Aulph,
Senior Systems Programmer:
850-487-8945
joe_au...@dcf.state.fl.us


   
 Howard Brazee 
To 
 Sent by: IBM  IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Mainframe  cc 
 Discussion List   
  Re: ISPF and long lines (was:   
   CLIST/REXX Philosophy)  
   
 12/17/2008 01:41  
 PM
   
   
 Please respond to 
   IBM Mainframe   
  Discussion List  

   
   




On 17 Dec 2008 09:58:06 -0800, paulgboul...@aim.com (Paul Gilmartin)
wrote:

>Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
>display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
>as XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly
>easier.  Users preferring to shift right and left could leave
>the option disabled (as is likewise possible in XEDIT).

It's "Legacy".   We're dinosaurs here, and while dinosaurs were
successful & lasted much, much longer than the newcomers will, we are
not adapting to the future.

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 11:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)





Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
as XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly
easier.  Users preferring to shift right and left could leave
the option disabled (as is likewise possible in XEDIT).


Did you ask?

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Scott Ford]

I thought it did, maybe I am remembering SDSF using a PF11 key to make more 
room foe the MVS command or JES2 command
Or am I having a senior moment .lol
 
Scott J Ford
 





From: "Thompson, Steve" 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:52:52 PM
Subject: Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 11:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)





Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
as XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly
easier.  Users preferring to shift right and left could leave
the option disabled (as is likewise possible in XEDIT).


Did you ask?

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Don Leahy]

There is the new(ish) EXPAND command that works with scrollable panel
fields.  It presents a popup window.

However, that doesn't help when you are Editing data.

 Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

> Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to
> display long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
> as XEDIT does.  This makes insertion into a long line vastly
> easier.  Users preferring to shift right and left could leave
> the option disabled (as is likewise possible in XEDIT).
>
> -- gil
>

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to display long 
>lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
as XEDIT does. 

1. ISPF EDIT appears to be 'stabilised'.
2. Open a requirement.
3. Write a macro(?); I tried once. Ran out of time.

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[P S]

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:
>>Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to display 
>>long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines,
> as XEDIT does.
>
> 1. ISPF EDIT appears to be 'stabilised'.
> 2. Open a requirement.
> 3. Write a macro(?); I tried once. Ran out of time.

4. Use z/VM. :-)

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Walt Farrell]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:42:08 +, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:

>1. ISPF EDIT appears to be 'stabilised'.

I don't think so, Ted. Each of the last 3 z/OS releases has contained
enhancements to ISPF Edit. 

In z/OS R10:
o   The ISPF editor now allows multiple destinations to be specified for
the MOVE and COPY line commands.

In z/OS R9:
o   The ISPF Edit, Browse, and View functions have been enhanced to 
support the processing of z/OS UNIX files.  
 o   The ISPF Editor is enhanced to support the display and modification of
 ASCII data.   
   
 o   The Edit UNDO command is enhanced to allow the reversal of changes
  made before a previous SAVE command.

In z/OS R8:
o   The Edit HILITE function has been enhanced to allow alternate margins 
to be specified for languages like PL/1 and C that support setting
left and right boundaries for source statements.  
  
o   The Edit COMPARE command now supports additional characters in member 
names when comparing members of a PDS. This means that COMPARE works  
with member names containing special characters such as hyphens.  
  
o   The HEX Edit primary command no longer displays profile lines,
excluded line messages, message lines, and informational lines in 
hexadecimal.  
-- 
  Walt 

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>4. Use z/VM. :-)

In an all z/OS shop?
-
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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>>1. ISPF EDIT appears to be 'stabilised'.

>I don't think so, Ted. Each of the last 3 z/OS releases has contained 
>enhancements to ISPF Edit. 

Okay. I sit corrected.
What really has stabilised is the user community.

I've found so many people do not use new function, because there is little done 
to communicate change beyond the SYSPROG.

I've also found that even when you do communicate to the user community, few 
actually read/exploit it.

But, that is b*tching better left for another day.
-
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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Walt Farrell]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:34:49 +, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:
>I've found so many people do not use new function, because there is little
done to communicate change beyond the SYSPROG.
>
>I've also found that even when you do communicate to the user community,
few actually read/exploit it.

Any user can find the ISPF changes for a given release from the ISPF Help
pull-down in the Action bar (assuming the Sysprog has left it active).  

-- 
  Walt

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Any user can find the ISPF changes for a given release from the ISPF Help
pull-down in the Action bar (assuming the Sysprog has left it active).  

Also assuming that they (the user) care.
One of the first things I did, at the last company I worked, was explain that 
very thing.

I found two end results:
1. Many didn't know it existed.
2. Many didn't bother to use it.

You can lead a user to documentation, but you can't make them read it!

(Read the manual? I hate the product already!)

-
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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[P S]

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:
>>4. Use z/VM. :-)
>
> In an all z/OS shop?

This:

:-)

is called an "emoticon" or a "smiley". That one indicates that I was kidding.

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Ted MacNEIL]

Yes! I know.
I meant to put one on my response.

I've customised one of my own: (8-{]}

Bald head
Glasses
Mustache
Smile
Beard

And, the sad version: (8-{[}

--Original Message--
From: P S
Sender: 
To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
ReplyTo: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Sent: Dec 17, 2008 18:32
Subject: Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:
>>4. Use z/VM. :-)
>
> In an all z/OS shop?

This:

:-)

is called an "emoticon" or a "smiley". That one indicates that I was kidding.

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-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 12/17/2008
   at 11:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin  said:

>Why, why doesn't ISPF edit, as an option, provide the facility to display
>long lines as single fields occupying multiple screen lines, as XEDIT
>does. 

NIH syndrome. I'm a TSO bigot, but nonetheless I miss XEDIT. There's a lot
of functionality that could and should be added to ISPF and has been in
XEDIT for decades.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<1345822925-1229550122-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-6979838...@bxe348.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>,
on 12/17/2008
   at 09:42 PM, Ted MacNEIL  said:

>2. Open a requirement.

I did, long ago in a galaxy far away. It wasn't specific to wrap, but
asked for IBM to provide an editor that combined the functionality of
ISPF/PDF EDIT and XEDIT.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<1346911285-1229553284-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-16888641...@bxe348.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>,
on 12/17/2008
   at 10:34 PM, Ted MacNEIL  said:

>I've also found that even when you do communicate to the user community,
>few actually read/exploit it.

It were ever thus :-(
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: ISPF and long lines (was: CLIST/REXX Philosophy)

[Don Leahy]

If I had a nickel for every time I've seen a blank look after asking
"Did you try the HELP key?", I could have retired years ago.


On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
 wrote:
> In
> <1346911285-1229553284-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-16888641...@bxe348.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>,
> on 12/17/2008
>   at 10:34 PM, Ted MacNEIL  said:
>
>>I've also found that even when you do communicate to the user community,
>>few actually read/exploit it.
>
> It were ever thus :-(
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
> ISO position; see 
> We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
> (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
>
> --
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>

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