Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 08/03/2005 at 10:47 PM, Ed Finnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Line mode, text commands. That is not responsive to the question Then what is the EDLIN equivalent of, e.g., calling a CLIST from within EDIT?; EDLIN does not support a programmable macro facility of any flavor. All I said was similar not a replacement for. Correct, and it isn't similar. Similar would be if it used, e.g., Perl, as a macro language instead of CLIST or REXX, but it is totally lacking in that facility. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 08/04/2005 at 04:04 PM, Howard Brazee [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Maybe you are comparing Unix editors. Full screen is dumbed down. No; a full screen editor that doesn't have a change command or a macro facility is dumbed down. A full screen editor like emacs, ISPF EDIT or XEDIT is not. The criterion for dumbed down is that it makes it difficult or impossible to do anything but the basics. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
Editiors on z/os? Better include EDIT Leaving it out would be like excluding VI from a list of unix Editors. EDIT is there and it still works -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
Not much OT; http://www.guidenet.net/resources/programmers.html DC -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
Dave you are one twisted puppy . :o) Strong typing is for people with weak memories. Almost good enough to steal for a sig. Shane ... Not much OT; http://www.guidenet.net/resources/programmers.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
On 4-Aug-2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.) wrote: The times have changed and there is a significant need to dumb down (yeah, I said it) the interface. I disagree. The time has come to make the interface easier, but not dumber. I'm not sure what a dumbed down interface is.Certainly there are problems with an interface being too smart. It can be a real pain to get MS Word to not out-guess what I really want. Is a dumbed down interface one that doesn't give us a lot of options? Most professional editors that use GUI interfaces on desktop computers give us tremendous amounts of options.On the other hand, most people who use the ISPF editor don't know how to use most of the options available and most people who use Ultra-Edit don't know how to use most of their options. Is an editor that highlights syntax dumbed down, or is that an editor that fails to do so? My impression is that a dumbed down interface is the one the other guy uses. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
The next generation of outsourcing wont be to India, it will be to the monkeys in the Amazon! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 8:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer snip My impression is that a dumbed down interface is the one the other guy uses. My concept of a dumbed down interface is really an interface which can be used by ignorant, untrained, underpaid, unskilled employees. One system here had a design criterion of allowing high school kids to be able to use it after less than one day of training. Such employees are easier to replace. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer UICI Insurance Center Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its' content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In a message dated 8/4/2005 8:53:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My concept of a dumbed down interface is really an interface which can be used by ignorant, untrained, underpaid, unskilled employees. One system here had a design criterion of allowing high school kids to be able to use it after less than one day of training. Such employees are easier to replace. Think of a cash register whose user interface now consists of pictures of all the different kinds of burgers, drinks, desserts, French fries, etc. It's dumbed down from the point of view of the type of employee who can use it [1], but it's smarted up from the point of view of bottom line profit for the fast food franchise owner. Bill Fairchild [1] General IQ level and proficiency in any known language. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
On 4 Aug 2005 06:52:53 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: My impression is that a dumbed down interface is the one the other guy uses. My concept of a dumbed down interface is really an interface which can be used by ignorant, untrained, underpaid, unskilled employees. My definition is similar, but not matching. I figure it's an interface that makes common tasks *very* easy to do, but makes uncommon tasks either impossible or very difficult to do (even if you know how). Most (but not all) GUIs are dumbed-down. Certain tasks require you to drill down through way too many levels of menu. By contrast, not-dumbed-down interfaces tend to require a fair investment in time before the user can figure out how to do even common tasks. However, once one knows how to do any task (common or not), it is generally easy to perform. While I have seen some interfaces (generally GUI) which combine the best of both, I haven't seen many. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
On 4-Aug-2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur T.) wrote: My definition is similar, but not matching. I figure it's an interface that makes common tasks *very* easy to do, but makes uncommon tasks either impossible or very difficult to do (even if you know how). Most (but not all) GUIs are dumbed-down. Certain tasks require you to drill down through way too many levels of menu. By contrast, not-dumbed-down interfaces tend to require a fair investment in time before the user can figure out how to do even common tasks. However, once one knows how to do any task (common or not), it is generally easy to perform. Learning the basic Windows interface required a fair amount of work. But once learned, everything used it.But learning to use the various features of ISPF is a continual process. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
Howard: On Aug 4, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Howard Brazee wrote: On 4-Aug-2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: My impression is that a dumbed down interface is the one the other guy uses. My concept of a dumbed down interface is really an interface which can be used by ignorant, untrained, underpaid, unskilled employees. One system here had a design criterion of allowing high school kids to be able to use it after less than one day of training. Such employees are easier to replace. Certainly the ISPF editor doesn't require more than a day of training for the way most programmers use it. I agree. I have taught such classes to NON programmer types and they picked right up on it without have to explain myself 25 times. These were medical types (hospital) nurses and the like so they were reasonably intelligent. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 08/02/2005 at 08:01 AM, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: How many editors are there on z/OS? Basically just one FSVO one larger than the standard value ;-) -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 08/02/2005 at 09:54 AM, Ed Finnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: TSO Edit. Works a lot like EDLIN in DOS. I take it that you've never used EDLIN? Not at all like TSO EDIT. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In a message dated 8/3/2005 6:07:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: take it that you've never used EDLIN? Not at all like TSO EDIT. Wrong again. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 08/03/2005 at 09:52 AM, Ed Finnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Wrong again. Then what is the EDLIN equivalent of, e.g., calling a CLIST from within EDIT? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
How does anything in that story apply uniquely to zSeries? Outsourcing to India (and elsewhere) is, if anything, more prevalent off zSeries than on. UNIX? The overall UNIX market is in decline, and UNIX outsources as well as anything. Tyler ought to make sure that he knows WebSphere, Linux, Java, workflow (WebSphere Business Integration Server Foundation and WBI Modeler, as examples), and ESB concepts (MQ, Message Broker, Web Services Gateway, etc.) among other things. He should help his employer make those technologies available on zSeries to his constituents -- and that those facilities are approachable and accessible by all who need to solve business problems. Note that implies at least some knowledge of solving business problems. If Tyler can't understand how his IT skills support business objectives, he does have a problem. Somehow businesses got rid of those punched cards and teletypes a few years ago and replaced them with those newfangled 3270 terminals. IBM mainframes have had Web servers and Web interfaces since 1991. The first Web server outside Europe was installed on a mainframe, at Stanford. So how about if Tyler stops worrying about the few fossils acting like fossils -- which exist in any organization. Tyler should have plenty of work to do getting Web interfaces deployed. There's this newfangled software called HATS, and it runs under WebSphere Repeating myself here, but he (or she?) has skills on a (the?) growth platform in a world crying out for solutions that don't break and which protect personal information. So I'd advise Tyler to learn a foreign language -- that's sage advice no matter what the career path -- and enjoy the ride. - - - - - Timothy F. Sipples Consulting Software Architect, Enterprise Transformation IBM Americas zSeries Software NEW Phone: +1 312 529 1612 (effective 1 September 2005) E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (PGP key available.) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
okay, one more, yes, he could learn to use windows where in order to shutdown the system, you must first hit the START button. Heueueue, don't you ADCD users S SHUTDOWN at the system console to bring your system down? Jantje. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Robert Justice okay, one more, yes, he could learn to use windows where in order to shutdown the system, you must first hit the START button. Alt+F4 initiates shutdown without the START button :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
Heh. I was thinking the same thing: as part of our shutdown procedure we issue commands along the lines of S TESTSHUT, etc. Jon snip Heueueue, don't you ADCD users S SHUTDOWN at the system console to bring your system down? /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In a message dated 8/2/2005 8:11:02 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How many editors are there on z/OS? Basically just one - ISPF/PDF. Well, I guess Roscoe (don't know how popular that is anymore). Oh, and for the rich people there is WSED. TSO Edit. Works a lot like EDLIN in DOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
z/OS Editors (Was: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer)
John Mckown wrote: How many editors are there on z/OS? Basically just one - ISPF/PDF. Well, I guess Roscoe (don't know how popular that is anymore). Oh, and for the rich people there is WSED. Ed Finnell wrote: TSO Edit. Works a lot like EDLIN in DOS. The Edit/Update function in the CBT REVIEW command processor is similar to ISPF Edit. Regards, John Kalinich Computer Sciences Corp -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
So back to Tyler and his dilemma what would you do when looking at the current status of the industry and the road ahead? Tyler has had a friend who is a Manager of the Technical department for a Unix shop begging for him for years to come automate the system, so throw that into the mix. Consider the potential death of the mainframe in Tyler's working existence, which would mean he would have to start all over. Consider that Tyler is rather close to graduating with a Computer Science degree. Consider the innovation death within mainframe computing and the alternative of Unix, Tyler, RUN, DON'T WALK, into that Unix job. RIGHT NOW. STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND QUIT. UNIX is the future, and we are the past. If you are as much of a cowboy as Francisco says, Unix will be right up your alley. Why are you even worried about this choice? This one is a real no brainer. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:54:52 EDT, Ed Finnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 8/2/2005 8:11:02 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How many editors are there on z/OS? Basically just one - ISPF/PDF. Well, I guess Roscoe (don't know how popular that is anymore). Oh, and for the rich people there is WSED. TSO Edit. Works a lot like EDLIN in DOS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Dont forget WYLBUR !! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
In a message dated 8/2/2005 11:23:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dont forget WYLBUR !! And Superwylbur. I used them both 30 Jurassic years ago. Bill Fairchild -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
I agree with Tim's point about transforming the look and feel of the mainframe's 3270 screens into Web interfaces. The old 3270 interface continues to make the mainframe appear old. Regardless of the incredible advances in hardware technology, cost per MIP, and continued record-breaking availability and reliability, the way that people see and interact with the mainframe is 30 years old. This makes it appear antiquated, when only the interface actually is. Since the Web has become the de facto standard for access to information, mainframers should be moving head long into trying to make that happen quickly and easily. And while Tim suggests Websphere and HATS, there are other products including our z/Web-Host which has provided immediate and simple transformation for nearly 5 years, with everything running native on the zSeries platform, and without the need for Websphere or any other supporting software. But whatever you use---by all means use something! Transforming the way people see the mainframe is an important element of viability. ** Eric Vaughan illustro Systems International, LLC --- See The Light--- Visit www.illustro.com to experience: z/Web-Host -- Easy Web Enablement for your Mainframe z/XML-Host -- Easy XML Enablement for your Mainframe Tel: +1.214.800.8900 Fax: +1.214.800.8989 ** -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer (Snip) Somehow businesses got rid of those punched cards and teletypes a few years ago and replaced them with those newfangled 3270 terminals. IBM mainframes have had Web servers and Web interfaces since 1991. The first Web server outside Europe was installed on a mainframe, at Stanford. So how about if Tyler stops worrying about the few fossils acting like fossils -- which exist in any organization. Tyler should have plenty of work to do getting Web interfaces deployed. There's this newfangled software called HATS, and it runs under WebSphere - - - - - Timothy F. Sipples Consulting Software Architect, Enterprise Transformation IBM Americas zSeries Software NEW Phone: +1 312 529 1612 (effective 1 September 2005) E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (PGP key available.) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
Another IBM mainframe editor I've used is SYSD. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
SuperWylbur is not dead yet... http://www.superwylbur.com/ Thanks, Sam -Original Message- And Superwylbur. I used them both 30 Jurassic years ago. Bill Fairchild This email/fax message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this email/fax is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all paper and electronic copies of the original message. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
John McKown How many editors are there on z/OS? Basically just one - ISPF/PDF. ISPF lets you choose from a very wide range of editors. For example, when I'm in a member list and select a member using E for Edit, the member opens instantly on my desktop in the NOTEPAD editor. When I've finished making changes and close the file, the changes are instantly uploaded back to the mainframe. Of course, I could have told ISPF to launch any editor I wanted, I just happened to pick NOTEPAD. Dave Salt SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe! http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
On Aug 1, 2005, at 8:31 PM, Robert Justice wrote: rant mode on well, speaking of 'friendly user-interfaces, he could learn to use vi on unix where the 'friendly way of doing something simple like signing the he 'double toothpicks' off is to do Shift, Capital ZZ or bang Q berkley produced both lsd and unix (and that's not a coincidence) Okay, I'm done now speaking on behalf of friendly interfaces enough said . You have a great point there -- IBM has never created anything nearly as friendly as either LSD or Unix... (BTW, ATT is responsible for unix, Sandoz of Switzerland is responsible for acid.) Have you considered the logout or exit commands? They are much easier to remember than Shift-ZZ-!-Q. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
- Original Message - From: Dave Salt [EMAIL PROTECTED] SNIP I couldn't agree more. However, anyone who thinks the standard ISPF interface is the only mainframe interface available has absolutely NO idea what they're missing. Making things worse is that the capabilities of the standard ISPF interface are poorly understood, even among people who use it every day and who ought to be 'experts'. Before you say this isn't the case at your shop, ask yourselve these questions: How many users in your shop know that their emulator mouse can be used to launch point-and shoot functions on the mainframe? How many even know that point-and-shoot exists? Are they at least using 3.4 most of the time? Do they use the Edit HILITE subcommand? How about Edit COMPARE? Putting ISPF aside for a moment, do they know about DFSORT symbols? How about IF/ENDIF in JCL streams? Or are they still coding and testing as if this was 1989? These are not obscure or arcane features, and can be easily mastered by any user. Yet so many fail to use them. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
On Aug 2, 2005, at 9:22 PM, Don Leahy wrote: ---SNIP--- Putting ISPF aside for a moment, do they know about DFSORT symbols? How about IF/ENDIF in JCL streams? Or are they still coding and testing as if this was 1989? These are not obscure or arcane features, and can be easily mastered by any user. Yet so many fail to use them. Don, While you are somewhat correct I think some context has to be brought in. While I can't pretend to speak for all programmers there are some good ones out there and they do use the facilities that you spoke about. There are some old fuddy duddies out there as well. The mixture is probably the same as it is in UNIX Land. The pro's and con's for using specific facilities are IMO a case of what the corporate culture is. The BEST people (in a good corporate culture) are allowed to fly. They teach others and the word is spread. In some corporate cultures anything new is bad. I have seen a few of those and it is an environment to stay away from. In some corporate cultures the middle road is take quite often. This can be either good or bad. A lot depends on management style. This IMO is a risky but somewhat sane environment. I can always (almost always) tell what kind of place to work for by taking a tour of the data center and the sysprogs working space. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
How many editors are there on z/OS? Basically just one - ISPF/PDF. Well, I guess Roscoe (don't know how popular that is anymore). Oh, and for the rich people there is WSED. There's ZZSA. So handy it doesn't even need z/OS to run. And then there's every editor for Linux. Don't forget DisplayWrite/370. Other editors include ABE, FSE, IEDIT, Visual SlickEdit, BIM-EDIT, CICS/Mini Edit, and Condor, among others. Timothy Sipples -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
This is being posted on behalf of a close friend named Tyler. I know he is lurking in close proximity. Tyler was a young naïve boy right out of high school, working as a temporary Computer Operator for a large company (a starting spot that many on the list hold near and dear to their hearts). Over time, he moved up the ranks and transitioned into the Technical Support and Systems Programming departments. All appeared grand to the outsiders eye, but as time went on Tyler began to realize that his talents and abilities were no longer appreciated by his company. The first indications of things going awry were the condescending attitude and omnipotent stance from the Corporate Sysprogs. Tyler was an up and coming youngster with an endless amount of potential and a knack for learning new tools, methodologies, and tricks in a quick amount of time (probably sounds familiar to many on the list). Many loved his abilities and used his enthusiasm and knowledge to their advantage, while a selected few tried to tear his reputation to bits. The general consensus was that the Sysprogs were territorial and fearful of Tylers ambition. Unfortunately, upper management was reliant upon the wicked and did not support those striving to attain a high level of knowledge. After years of reading IBM-Main on a daily basis, Tyler came to the conclusion that his company situation was a mere microcosm of the industry. Innovation and creativity are on the decline and met with stiff opposition these days. OCO (Object Code Only) is a prime example of squashing innovation. This inhibits the System Programmers ability to see what is happening under the covers and mimic/exploit these facilities in other applications. Nowadays, the Systems Programmer has to make assumptions about what is happening internally and we arent always right (some of us can never admit it, but we are all wrong at least once in a while). Also, over time the Systems Programmers job responsibilities in many shops have been reduced to customization of IBM and 3rd party products, performance monitoring, and fine-tuning Systems and Applications. There are probably Sysprogs out there who dont understand a lick of Assembler, but are still very successful and efficient at their jobs (okay, some of you here may disagree to the definition of efficient. Lets not go over the definition of is a la Mr. Clinton). Gone are the days of creating customized applications, exits, etc. for the benefit of companies. It still exists, but is nowhere near as rampant as in the past. The ever-increasing complexity of the system is a driving force behind the transformation of the Systems Programmer job to more drone-like work, but what it really comes down to is financials. We are all aware of the recent layoffs within IBM (in the States and Europe) and the expansion of outsourcing to India. In order to utilize India to its fullest potential, there had to be extreme standardization. It isnt realistic to have major Systems Programming customization performed halfway around the world with the barriers of locality, time difference, and language. IBM can utilize India to further its grip on the mainframe and standardization. As IBM further outsources to India, their cost goes down and thus sweeter deals are made to companies from IBM to handle their Systems Programming functions. The company saves face in the industry by proclaiming to be outsourcing to IBM, even though they are indirectly outsourcing to India. Both IBM and the companies save money, but there are significant negatives to the above scenario. Once again, innovation and ingenuity is lost and furthermore, America falls even further down on the Technological brain spectrum. So where does this leave Tyler in the big scheme of things? Tyler is a young man (okay, truly a boy) in his mid-20s with a big future in front of him. All the stories of System crashes, rebuilding JESs, or fancy ZAPs from the old days excite him and he wishes he had been around in those days when there wasnt such a clamp on things. Tyler recognizes the need for the clamps (sometimes nooses) these days and complies with them, but that doesnt prevent him from dreaming about living in the days of old. What is the latest excitement in the life of Tyler in the computing world? The non- event that was Y2K! Tyler gets just as much excitement from watching the clock turn to midnight every night. So as Tyler looks down the road, he sees about 40 years (make that 50 as the retirement age will be 75 by then) of drone-work rewarded with being laid off. Yippee and not only that, but the platform may not be around more than half that duration as we seem to fail to see the need for a better user interface. The times have changed and there is a significant need to dumb down (yeah, I said it) the interface. This is entirely why Windows is such a huge success. The interface is appealing and makes things ultra-simple for the user. Most of us here could wing
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
rant mode on well, speaking of 'friendly user-interfaces, he could learn to use vi on unix where the 'friendly way of doing something simple like signing the he 'double toothpicks' off is to do Shift, Capital ZZ or bang Q berkley produced both lsd and unix (and that's not a coincidence) Okay, I'm done now speaking on behalf of friendly interfaces enough said . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
okay, one more, yes, he could learn to use windows where in order to shutdown the system, you must first hit the START button. (Note that if us mainframers did something like that we'd be crucified). I really am done this time speaking of behalf of friendly inerfaces. . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Dilemma of a young Mainframe Systems Programmer
From: Francisco Medina [EMAIL PROTECTED] SNIP The times have changed and there is a significant need to dumb down (yeah, I said it) the interface. This is entirely why Windows is such a huge success. The interface is appealing and makes things ultra-simple for the user. Most of us here could wing it when signed on to Mainframe TSO for the very first time by using the panel options, but the majority of people cannot. However, many 7 year olds can figure out the Windows GUI interface in about a half-hour after a little experimentation and guidance. Just because our platform is normally relegated to larger corporations processing mostly in batch, does not mean that we need to have a crappy interface that turns people off as soon as they see it. The initial reaction of the majority would be, that sucks like the DOS days, even though you and I probably love DOS more than Windows (hey, we love the command-line interpreter). With the advent of Windows and the continued aging of the mainframe community, it becomes more and more of a necessity to enhance the user interface. If we choose to ignore this essential aspect of the operating system, it is truly doomed for failure in the future. Francisco, I agree with everything you stated. However, for the benefit of those who monitor the list and might not know differently, I must point out there are many tools available that SIGNIFICANTLY improve the standard mainframe interface. I confess up-front I make my living by developing such a tool, so obviously my opinions are biased. However, it's my experience that few people are aware such tools exist, or have ever had the opportunity to see or use them. People who are exposed to the standard mainframe interface eventually move on to become managers. If they didn't like the mainframe and perceive it as unproductive and unintuitive, you can be sure they'll have no fondness for keeping it. But solutions are available right now, today, that dramatically improve the mainframe interface and help prevent this scenario from happening. Perhaps everyone is sitting back and waiting for IBM to provide a solution. ISPF was introduced more than 20 years ago, and the underlying interface has changed little in all that time. Yes there have been major improvements in features and utilities, and the architecture itself (IMHO) is first rate. But still, the interface itself leaves much to be desired. Fortunately, part of the architecture provided by IBM allows tools and utilities to be created that can complement and enhance the base architecture. Tools created by vendors and even certain individuals are available to anyone who cares to look. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for. Some tools are free, but usually the better tools cost money. Perhaps it's the perceived expense of licensing tools that prevents most shops from exploring what's available. But this is a case of penny wise and pound foolish. Mainframe hardware and software often costs hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars to buy and operate. It then costs millions more on an annual basis to employee the people who work on the platform (i.e. roughly one million dollars a year for every 10 employees). With such VAST amounts of money involved, you'd think most companies would do almost anything in their power to improve productivity. If a software tool improves productivity by an average of 10% and is used by 20 people, and if such a tool cost $5,000 per year to license, then the return on investment works out to roughly $195,000 a year. Even if the tool generated a paltry 1% improvement in productivity, it would still return roughly 4 times the initial investment each and every year. If more than 20 people used it, the return grows even bigger. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that even very small investments in productivity tools can reap huge dividends, and at the same time make everyones lives much easier. Despite this, few companies look at any interface software beyond what comes with the standard mainframe installation. Other companies languish and complain, while still others spend huge sums of money to convert to other platforms. Those in a position to investigate and recommend ways to improve mainframe productivity and the user interface should take it upon themselves to do so. If they don't, they shouldn't be surprised when the mainframe platform eventually dissapears for good. As Francisco so aptly stated in his email: With the advent of Windows and the continued aging of the mainframe community, it becomes more and more of a necessity to enhance the user interface. If we choose to ignore this essential aspect of the operating system, it is truly doomed for failure in the future. I couldn't agree more. However, anyone who thinks the standard ISPF interface is the only mainframe interface available has absolutely NO idea what they're missing. Dave Salt
