Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 12/30/2010
   at 01:37 PM, Paul Gilmartin  said:

>Can't you order it from Microsoft?

Order what? New local policy?

>Problem:  SAS doesn't know how to spell SMP/E.

Or FTP; they insist on using HTTP for delivery.
 
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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Yes, I only meant that it was a mix of PL/I and Fortran.

Yes, I know you did.
But, C was required to go multi-platform.

And, arrogance still reigns!
(Has since at least 1981 -- they still don't get it!)

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Scott Rowe]

Yes, I only meant that it was a mix of PL/I and Fortran.

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:

> >Actually, SAS had a bunch of Fortran in it way back when, you could tell
> from the DDNAMEs.
>
> Yes. I'd forgotten.
> Log: FT11F001
> List: FT12F001
>
> But, I'd discussed this with many SAS'rs in the early 1980's.
> And, PL/1 was most of the code.
>
> Had to have PLINK (and the other -- PLBASE?) in LPA, LNK, or steplib to run
> SAS.
>
> -
> Ted MacNEIL
> eamacn...@yahoo.ca
>
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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Actually, SAS had a bunch of Fortran in it way back when, you could tell from 
>the DDNAMEs.

Yes. I'd forgotten.
Log: FT11F001
List: FT12F001

But, I'd discussed this with many SAS'rs in the early 1980's.
And, PL/1 was most of the code.

Had to have PLINK (and the other -- PLBASE?) in LPA, LNK, or steplib to run SAS.

-
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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Scott Rowe]

Actually, SAS had a bunch of Fortran in it way back when, you could tell
from the DDNAMEs.  But yes, I would be more inclined to go to WPS now, even
if cost wasn't a factor.  Their install was never very good, and now it
sounds like a major nightmare.

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:

> >I could be wrong, but SAS Institute appears to be another "arrogant"
> vendor.
> >They have an excellent product with a large share of their market.
> >Therefore "we are the best and you need to conform to our ideas".
> >Probably started when their codebase went to C.
>
> I believe that your last comment is just facetious.
> I've used SAS since 1981 -- they were always arrogant.
>
> The codebase conversion was to facilitate the migration/movement to other
> platforms.
>
> Before that, it was PL/1, which is why a lot of the code constructs
> resemble that language.
>
> IMO, SAS Institute just doesn't get it.
> This is probably why WPS is gaining a strong foothold.
>
> -
> Ted MacNEIL
> eamacn...@yahoo.ca
>
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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Ted MacNEIL]

>I could be wrong, but SAS Institute appears to be another "arrogant" vendor.
>They have an excellent product with a large share of their market.
>Therefore "we are the best and you need to conform to our ideas".
>Probably started when their codebase went to C.

I believe that your last comment is just facetious.
I've used SAS since 1981 -- they were always arrogant.

The codebase conversion was to facilitate the migration/movement to other 
platforms.

Before that, it was PL/1, which is why a lot of the code constructs resemble 
that language.

IMO, SAS Institute just doesn't get it.
This is probably why WPS is gaining a strong foothold.

-
Ted MacNEIL
eamacn...@yahoo.ca

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Rowe
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 2:03 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install
> 
> What I want to know is who at SAS thought it this was an installation
> process that was anywhere near acceptable?
> 

I could be wrong, but SAS Institute appears to be another "arrogant" vendor. 
They have an excellent product with a large share of their market. Therefore 
"we are the best and you need to conform to our ideas". Probably started when 
their codebase went to C .

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IT

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Scott Rowe]

What I want to know is who at SAS thought it this was an installation
process that was anywhere near acceptable?

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 13:31:49 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>
> >In <20101228145843.14b468f...@panix3.panix.com>, on 12/28/2010
> >   at 09:58 AM, Don Poitras said:
> >
> >>While I am fully comfortable using the newer unix facilities on z/OS
> >>(including X11),
> >
> >X11 itself is pretty long in the tooth. The problem is not that it's
> >new, the problem is that many companies have policies on the PC side
> >that make it difficult or impossible to get an X server installed.
> >
> Can't you order it from Microsoft?
>
> >>They would like nothing better than to send a tape and an IEBUPDTE
> >>job to load it. :)
> >
> IEBUPDTE?  ITYM IEBCOPY or AMATERSE.
>
> >ITYM a tape with proper packaging and an SMP/E job to install it.
> >
> Problem:  SAS doesn't know how to spell SMP/E.
>
> -- gil
>
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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 13:31:49 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

>In <20101228145843.14b468f...@panix3.panix.com>, on 12/28/2010
>   at 09:58 AM, Don Poitras said:
>
>>While I am fully comfortable using the newer unix facilities on z/OS
>>(including X11),
>
>X11 itself is pretty long in the tooth. The problem is not that it's
>new, the problem is that many companies have policies on the PC side
>that make it difficult or impossible to get an X server installed.
>
Can't you order it from Microsoft?

>>They would like nothing better than to send a tape and an IEBUPDTE
>>job to load it. :)
>
IEBUPDTE?  ITYM IEBCOPY or AMATERSE.

>ITYM a tape with proper packaging and an SMP/E job to install it.
>
Problem:  SAS doesn't know how to spell SMP/E.

-- gil

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <20101228145843.14b468f...@panix3.panix.com>, on 12/28/2010
   at 09:58 AM, Don Poitras  said:

>While I am fully comfortable using the newer unix facilities on z/OS
>(including X11),

X11 itself is pretty long in the tooth. The problem is not that it's
new, the problem is that many companies have policies on the PC side
that make it difficult or impossible to get an X server installed.
Getting an NFS server or a web proxy accessible from z/OS can be even
more fun.

>They would like nothing better than to send a tape and an IEBUPDTE
>job to load it. :)

ITYM a tape with proper packaging and an SMP/E job to install it.
 
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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Arthur Gutowski]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 00:16:10 -0600, Paul Gilmartin 
 wrote:

>>If I read it correctly, the tar is as-distributed on the DVD, so if that was 
>>not
>>built properly to begin with, windoze is the only drop for the "untar". 
>
>I read it otherwise.  From the OP:
>
>On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:50:47 -0800, Schwarz, Barry A wrote:
>
>If anyone has installed SAS 9.2 using a PC to read the DVDs
>followed by using tar to prepare the "depot" for ftp to the
>mainframe, ...

>Is the package delivered as a *.zip?  If so, could it be transmitted
>as a BLOb to z/OS and unpacked with the "jar" command?  If not, SAS
>has missed another opportunity.

The internet package is somehow compressed, but the "download manager" 
masked it from view.  I would have thought the DVD package would be built 
the same way for the sake of the DM.  "But, what do I know, I'm just a 
tourist?"  SAS-proprietary as opposed to "tar" OR "zip"?  If not, it could just 
as 
easily be "tar" as "zip", or even uncompressed, couldn't it?

If only I'd thought to ask and learned sooner that "jar" *unpacked* "zip" files 
(and not just processed them for it's own purposes)... D'OH... I tried 
creating "tar" or "pax" on Windows to no avail.  Come to think of it, if the OP 
has any MVS "zip" software (Ascent, Data/21, etc.), wink and a nudge, eh?

Still, it's a whole lot more harder than it need be...  I agree entirely:  
SMP/E 
sure would help not only the SD processes, but fix management, too.

Regards,
Art Gutowski
Ford Motor Company

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Schwarz, Barry A]

Unfortunately, the only other system available is Sun Solaris (with which I am 
barely competent to log in) and I can't use that system for several months.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 5:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

The vendor's leaving processing to the customer on an unspecified
platform using uncontrolled utilities is rife with hazards. At
best, it introduces undocumented prerequisites.

Could the OP try building the tar archive on a Linux or OS X
or anything but Windows system?

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Don Poitras]

In article <20101228141815.630ed8f...@panix3.panix.com> you wrote:
> Happy New Year!

Sorry, I couldn't pass a setup like that. I don't think there's anyone
at Sas that's satisfied with the current situation regarding installation
on z/OS. Naturally, I can't get into the specifics, but I think it's
safe to say that there are many conflicting goals when trying to create
a system as complex as SAS has become. Over the years, more and more
of the SAS system has been targetted at the newer platforms and this
sometimes leads to the mainframe ending up as "oh, and it needs to run
on z/OS. And it better run there just as fast as Windows!" Actually,
it's pretty amazing the amount of code that is shared across the platforms
and the number of Sas developers that don't even fully grok that their
code runs there. Certainly, "one size fits all" hasn't worked for installs
though. While I am fully comfortable using the newer unix facilities
on z/OS (including X11), I probably wouldn't be if I hadn't had a job
that required me to learn it all. Tech support sometimes gets overwhelmed
as well. They would like nothing better than to send a tape and an
IEBUPDTE job to load it. :) That said, I think we have some of the best
tech support in the industry and if you feel you're not getting service,
I would suggest you attempt to escalate your trouble ticket. Maybe you
just got somebody on a bad day. We take CRP (customer reported problems)
as our highest priority in development. Ahead of any new feature. I
can't promise that this is going to be fixed immediately. I don't even
work in that area. But I know that the people working on this are dedicated
to producing an install experience that matches the experience of those
actually using SAS to it's full, installed, potential.


> > Feels like a SEV2 to me.  Perhaps not to SAS.

> > Two regular contributors to this forum with SAS return addresses
> > have been conspicuously silent on this thread.  Properly; it's
> > prudent to eschew controversy.  But perhaps their employer could
> > make an official statement.  Even just "Happy New Year".

> > -- gil

-- 
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sas...@sas.com   (919) 531-5637Cary, NC 27513

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Lindy Mayfield]

Or as we say in Finland: Onnellista uutta vuotta.  Happy  new year, with a bit 
of good fortune thrown in.


-Original Message-


> Two regular contributors to this forum with SAS return addresses have 
> been conspicuously silent on this thread.  Properly; it's prudent to 
> eschew controversy.  But perhaps their employer could make an official 
> statement.  Even just "Happy New Year".

> -- gil

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Don Poitras]

Happy New Year!


In article  you wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 23:39:33 -0600, Arthur Gutowski wrote:
> >
> >
> >If you really want to have some fun, you should try their internet delivery.
> >
> >
> Didn't IBM solve that problem with RECEIVE FROMNETWORK.  But SAS
> doesn't believe in SMP/E.  But I have no cause to boast.  My
> employer won't let me use that protocol as a supplier, and only
> with difficulty as a client.

> (Suggestion to IBM: extend RECEIVE FROMNETWORK to support HTTP[S]
> as an alternative to FTP.)

> >>The vendor's leaving processing to the customer on an unspecified
> >>platform using uncontrolled utilities is rife with hazards. At
> >>best, it introduces undocumented prerequisites.
> >
> >You ain't just whistlin' Dixie... XWindows, Java levels (PTF-sensitive, 
> >even)...
> >to quote "Dogma":  'It *never* ends!'
> >
> >>Could the OP try building the tar archive on a Linux or OS X
> >>or anything but Windows system?
> >
> >If I read it correctly, the tar is as-distributed on the DVD, so if that was 
> >not
> >built properly to begin with, windoze is the only drop for the "untar".  Then

> I read it otherwise.  From the OP:

> On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:50:47 -0800, Schwarz, Barry A wrote:

> If anyone has installed SAS 9.2 using a PC to read the DVDs
> followed by using tar to prepare the "depot" for ftp to the
> mainframe, ...

> >you'd either have to NFS-mount that filespace somewhere, or transfer the
> >entire kit and kaboodle to "re-tar" it properly.  FWIW, once you have
> >the "untar", you might as well just ftp it up to a z/OS Unix filesystem - 
> >just
> >make sure your ftp client can process the whole tree and preserve the long
> >path and file names.  It took me a few failed installs before I realized 
> >that I
> >forgot to "check the box" and some file buried *deep* in the tree lost part 
> >of
> >its identity.
> >
> Is the package delivered as a *.zip?  If so, could it be transmitted
> as a BLOb to z/OS and unpacked with the "jar" command?  If not, SAS
> has missed another opportunity.

> >FWIW, SAS tells me they are "working on" improvements to the process.
> >Apparently, I'm not the only one who has raised a stink.
> >
> Feels like a SEV2 to me.  Perhaps not to SAS.

> Two regular contributors to this forum with SAS return addresses
> have been conspicuously silent on this thread.  Properly; it's
> prudent to eschew controversy.  But perhaps their employer could
> make an official statement.  Even just "Happy New Year".

> -- gil

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 23:39:33 -0600, Arthur Gutowski wrote:
>
>
>If you really want to have some fun, you should try their internet delivery.
>
>
Didn't IBM solve that problem with RECEIVE FROMNETWORK.  But SAS
doesn't believe in SMP/E.  But I have no cause to boast.  My
employer won't let me use that protocol as a supplier, and only
with difficulty as a client.

(Suggestion to IBM: extend RECEIVE FROMNETWORK to support HTTP[S]
as an alternative to FTP.)

>>The vendor's leaving processing to the customer on an unspecified
>>platform using uncontrolled utilities is rife with hazards. At
>>best, it introduces undocumented prerequisites.
>
>You ain't just whistlin' Dixie... XWindows, Java levels (PTF-sensitive, 
>even)...
>to quote "Dogma":  'It *never* ends!'
>
>>Could the OP try building the tar archive on a Linux or OS X
>>or anything but Windows system?
>
>If I read it correctly, the tar is as-distributed on the DVD, so if that was 
>not
>built properly to begin with, windoze is the only drop for the "untar".  Then

I read it otherwise.  From the OP:

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:50:47 -0800, Schwarz, Barry A wrote:

If anyone has installed SAS 9.2 using a PC to read the DVDs
followed by using tar to prepare the "depot" for ftp to the
mainframe, ...

>you'd either have to NFS-mount that filespace somewhere, or transfer the
>entire kit and kaboodle to "re-tar" it properly.  FWIW, once you have
>the "untar", you might as well just ftp it up to a z/OS Unix filesystem - just
>make sure your ftp client can process the whole tree and preserve the long
>path and file names.  It took me a few failed installs before I realized that I
>forgot to "check the box" and some file buried *deep* in the tree lost part of
>its identity.
>
Is the package delivered as a *.zip?  If so, could it be transmitted
as a BLOb to z/OS and unpacked with the "jar" command?  If not, SAS
has missed another opportunity.

>FWIW, SAS tells me they are "working on" improvements to the process.
>Apparently, I'm not the only one who has raised a stink.
>
Feels like a SEV2 to me.  Perhaps not to SAS.

Two regular contributors to this forum with SAS return addresses
have been conspicuously silent on this thread.  Properly; it's
prudent to eschew controversy.  But perhaps their employer could
make an official statement.  Even just "Happy New Year".

-- gil

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Arthur Gutowski]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 07:56:01, Paul Gilmartin  
wrote:

>
>So why does SAS not deliver the product in a *.pax.Z archive built
>on z/OS and verified to be usable on z/OS rather than leaving it
>to the customers' ingenuity to manufacture one?
>


If you really want to have some fun, you should try their internet delivery.


>The vendor's leaving processing to the customer on an unspecified
>platform using uncontrolled utilities is rife with hazards. At
>best, it introduces undocumented prerequisites.

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie... XWindows, Java levels (PTF-sensitive, 
even)... 
to quote "Dogma":  'It *never* ends!'

>Could the OP try building the tar archive on a Linux or OS X
>or anything but Windows system?

If I read it correctly, the tar is as-distributed on the DVD, so if that was 
not 
built properly to begin with, windoze is the only drop for the "untar".  Then 
you'd either have to NFS-mount that filespace somewhere, or transfer the 
entire kit and kaboodle to "re-tar" it properly.  FWIW, once you have 
the "untar", you might as well just ftp it up to a z/OS Unix filesystem - just 
make sure your ftp client can process the whole tree and preserve the long 
path and file names.  It took me a few failed installs before I realized that I 
forgot to "check the box" and some file buried *deep* in the tree lost part of 
its identity.

FWIW, SAS tells me they are "working on" improvements to the process.  
Apparently, I'm not the only one who has raised a stink.

Good luck,
Art Gutowski
Ford Motor Company

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Re: Antwort: Re: tar limitation preventing SAS install

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 09:34:37 +0100, Michael Klaeschen wrote:
>
> ... So from my reading: you will not be able to build an extended USTAR
>formatted archive file from your PC -- unless your PC version of "tar"
>implements z/OS features of course
>

So why does SAS not deliver the product in a *.pax.Z archive built
on z/OS and verified to be usable on z/OS rather than leaving it
to the customers' ingenuity to manufacture one?


>On Sun, 2010-12-26 at 17:50 -0800, Schwarz, Barry A wrote:
>> If anyone has installed SAS 9.2 using a PC to read the DVDs followed
>> by using tar to prepare the "depot" for ftp to the mainframe, would
>> you please tell me how to get around the z/OS 1.11 tar limitation of
>> 100 characters in a path name.  I have tried both -O and -X to no
>> avail.
>>
The vendor's leaving processing to the customer on an unspecified
platform using uncontrolled utilities is rife with hazards. At
best, it introduces undocumented prerequisites.

Could the OP try building the tar archive on a Linux or OS X
or anything but Windows system?

-- gil

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