Re: Wars and Allies

[Edward Jaffe]

Howard Brazee wrote:

These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
Righteous.
  


Has always been the case.

--
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Phoenix Software International, Inc
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Los Angeles, CA 90045
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Re: Wars and Allies

[Bruce Black]

These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
Righteous.
  


Has always been the case. 
Probably since Ug worshiped the sun and Gug worshiped the earth.  One or 
the other ended up with a rock to the head.


--
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Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
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Re: Wars and Allies

[Kevin Keyes]

OK, I'll bite.  Unless you define the "Righteous" as Communist which no 
reasonable person would since they are mutually contradictory it seems 
the lack of Righteous or the secular idology "these days", (being the 
20th century) have killed more people and caused more evil in the 
history of the world. 

Secular communism, not the righteous is accountable for the the millions 
killed and imprisoned by the secular Russian government, the millions 
and millions killed by Mao in China, the Japanese with the Rape of 
Nanking, the communist Vietnam "government" taking the south.  Even the 
socialist party that turned into the Nazi's under Hitler the millions 
killed.


I believe it you have a tally sheet on the Righteous deaths and the 
secular deaths, the righteous, would come in a far second.


I will agree

Edward Jaffe wrote:

Howard Brazee wrote:

These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
Righteous.
  


Has always been the case.



--
Kevin M. Keyes

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Richard Pinion]

I thought it was the big black monolith's fault!

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: Bruce Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:   IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Wars and Allies
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:03:39 -0400

>
>> These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
>> Righteous.
>>   
>
> Has always been the case. 
Probably since Ug worshiped the sun and Gug worshiped the earth.  One or 
the other ended up with a rock to the head.

-- 
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for FDR
Innovation Data Processing 973-890-7300
personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sales info: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tech support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Steve Grimes]

I think R. J. Rummel's "Death by Government" shines the light of 
statistics on this question.

Stg

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Denise P. Kalm]

Who defines Righteous?  What does that actually mean?  Isn't it usually a 
perspective?

Are the Wahabbist Muslims righteous?  A Presbyterian congregation?  Are 
they the same thing in terms of fomenting war and being evil?

Denise P. Kalm
Sr. Product Marketing Manager 
Enterprise Systems Management
CA, Inc. formerly Cybermation 
650-534-9099 (CA office)
925-946-1384 (home office)
925-382-9079 (cell)
Walnut Creek, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: wars and allies

[john gilmore]

Most of the sentiments being expressed in this thread were familiar to the 
ancient Greeks, and Voltaire provided the definitive statement a 250 years 
ago:


«Presque toute l'histoire est une suite d'atrocités inutiles»

---Voltaire, Essai sur l'histoire générale, 1756.




John Gilmore
Ashland, MA 01721-1817
USA

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Howard Brazee]

On 22 Sep 2006 11:16:31 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

>>> These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
>>> Righteous.
>>>   
>>
>> Has always been the case. 
>Probably since Ug worshiped the sun and Gug worshiped the earth.  One or 
>the other ended up with a rock to the head.

There have also been wars to get food, shelter, wealth, & power.   But
as our basic needs have been better satisfied, we are more likely to
do evil for more righteous reasons.

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Re: Wars and Allies

[John P Donnelly]

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, 
in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The 
University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian 
Republic" some 2,000 years prior: 

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a 
permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until 
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts 
from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes 
for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, 
with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose 
fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship." 

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning 
of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these 
nations always progressed through the following sequence: 

>From Bondage to spiritual faith; 
>From spiritual faith to great courage; 
>From courage to liberty; 
>From liberty to abundance; 
>From abundance to complacency; 
>From complacency to apathy; 
>From apathy to dependence; 
>From dependence back into bondage." 
John Donnelly
z/OS Systems Services
National Semiconductor
Corporation
2900 Semiconductor Drive
Santa Clara, CA 95051

tel: (408) 721-5640
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




"Steve Grimes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: "IBM Mainframe Discussion List" 
09/22/2006 11:41 AM
Please respond to
"IBM Mainframe Discussion List" 


To
IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc

Subject
Re: Wars and Allies






I think R. J. Rummel's "Death by Government" shines the light of 
statistics on this question.

Stg

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Stan Saraczewski]

I'm surprised that no one has complained about this
thread getting so far off course.

It does make for fascinating reading though.



--- John P Donnelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At about the time our original 13 states adopted
> their new constitution, 
> in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish
> history professor at The 
> University of Edinborough) had this to say about
> "The Fall of The Athenian 
> Republic" some 2,000 years prior: 
> 
> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it
> simply cannot exist as a 
> permanent form of government. A democracy will
> continue to exist up until 
> the time that voters discover that they can vote
> themselves generous gifts 
> from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
> majority always votes 
> for the candidates who promise the most benefits
> from the public treasury, 
> with the result that every democracy will finally
> collapse due to loose 
> fiscal policy, which is always followed by a
> dictatorship." 
> 
> "The average age of the worlds greatest
> civilizations from the beginning 
> of history, has been about 200 years. During those
> 200 years, these 
> nations always progressed through the following
> sequence: 
> 
> From Bondage to spiritual faith; 
> From spiritual faith to great courage; 
> From courage to liberty; 
> From liberty to abundance; 
> From abundance to complacency; 
> From complacency to apathy; 
> From apathy to dependence; 
> From dependence back into bondage." 
> John Donnelly
> z/OS Systems Services
> National Semiconductor
> Corporation
> 2900 Semiconductor Drive
> Santa Clara, CA 95051
> 
> tel: (408) 721-5640
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Steve Grimes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> Sent by: "IBM Mainframe Discussion List"
> 
> 09/22/2006 11:41 AM
> Please respond to
> "IBM Mainframe Discussion List"
> 
> 
> 
> To
> IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> cc
> 
> Subject
> Re: Wars and Allies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think R. J. Rummel's "Death by Government" shines
> the light of 
> statistics on this question.
> 
> Stg
> 
>
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> 
> 
>
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> 




These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
Righteous.

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Re: Wars and Allies

[(IBM Mainframe Discussion List)]

 
 
WARNING:  Continuation of off-topic tangent here follows.
 
In a message dated 9/22/2006 3:13:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The  
>University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The  Athenian 
>Republic" some 2,000 years prior:
His name was Tytler, not Tyler.  And the name of that book is bogus  and so 
is the quote.  The sentiment, however, is right on.  If you  can find the book, 
I will eat my words and pay you handsomely for  it.



Bill  Fairchild

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Mark Vitale]

Can you refute Snope's categorization of the "Alexander Tyler" 
quote as probable urban legend?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

-mark

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John P Donnelly
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:11 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Wars and Allies
> 
> At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new 
> constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish 
> history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this 
> to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 
> years prior: 

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of (IBM Mainframe 
> Discussion List)
>  
> WARNING:  Continuation of off-topic tangent here follows.
>  
> In a message dated 9/22/2006 3:13:40 P.M. Central Daylight 
> Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> >Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of 
> >Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian
Republic" 
> >some 2,000 years prior:
> 
> His name was Tytler, not Tyler.  And the name of that book is 
> bogus  and so is the quote.  The sentiment, however, is right 
> on.  If you  can find the book, I will eat my words and pay 
> you handsomely for  it.



Contains other "interesting factoids" as well.

-jc-

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Re: Wars and Allies

[James Strawn]

Best post of the entire thread

Jim 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Vitale
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Wars and Allies

Can you refute Snope's categorization of the "Alexander Tyler" 
quote as probable urban legend?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

-mark

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John P Donnelly
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:11 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Wars and Allies
> 
> At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new 
> constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history 
> professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The

> Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

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Re: Wars and Allies

[Darren Evans-Young]

Thread Killed.

Darren

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:56:40 -0400, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you
wrote:

>You are much too young to remember any of this.  I wasn't around
>for WWI, but can remember WWII quite clearly.  Like the Civil War
>and WWII, the present conflicts affect civilians heavily in the war
>arenas.  The world needs less arrogance and more empathy.

These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
Righteous.   

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Stan Saraczewski]

"These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is
perpetrated by the Righteous.  "

What a magnificently accurate thought; I've just made
it my e-mail signature. 

Thank You.



--- Howard Brazee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:56:40 -0400, in
> bit.listserv.ibm-main you
> wrote:
> 
> >You are much too young to remember any of this.  I
> wasn't around
> >for WWI, but can remember WWII quite clearly.  Like
> the Civil War
> >and WWII, the present conflicts affect civilians
> heavily in the war
> >arenas.  The world needs less arrogance and more
> empathy.
> 
> These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is
> perpetrated by the
> Righteous.   
> 
>
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> 




These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated by the
Righteous.

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Stan Saraczewski
> 
> "These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated 
> by the Righteous.  "
> 
> What a magnificently accurate thought; I've just made it my 
> e-mail signature. 

You can probably omit "These days" from it.

-jc-

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[John H. Lang]

"These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated 
 by the Righteous.  "

One really needs to beware of "Bumper Sticker Mentality", that of trying to 
reduce complicated issues into a few words.  From the phrase above, one implies 
then that it is bad to be righteous and in fact that it is an evil thing.  As 
usual with bumper sticker words, they don't hold up very well under scrutiny.  
Some examples:

1. Women were righteous in their belief that they should get the vote and be 
equal partners with men - was that wrong or evil?
2. Martin Luther King was righteous in his belief that all men are equal and 
should be treated equally - was that evil.
3. Ceaser Chavev was righteous in his belief that farm workers should get a 
fair shake - was that evil?
4. Our forefathers were righteous in their belief that we should be separate 
from England - was that evil.
5. Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill were righteous in their belief that 
Hitler needed to be stopped - was that evil?

So while I understand what the phrase is trying to convey, it is wrong to say 
all righteous people cause war and do evil things.  Righteous people can do 
good as well.

JL

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John H. Lang
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

"These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated 
 by the Righteous.  "



So while I understand what the phrase is trying to convey, it is wrong
to say all righteous people cause war and do evil things.  Righteous
people can do good as well.


Perhaps this saying might put things into proper perspective:

Those of you who think you know it all really annoy the _ out of us
who do.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Jeffrey D. Smith]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Thompson, Steve (SCI TW)
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:31 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)
> 
> 
> Perhaps this saying might put things into proper perspective:
> 
> Those of you who think you know it all really annoy the _ out of us
> who do.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve Thompson

Religion has probably caused more wars and suffering than communism
or any other non-religious cause. It's an argument over who has the
better imaginary friend. It's been going on seen divinity was invented
to answer the question (and calm our fears) about death, and later it
was subverted for social control. 

Jeffrey D. Smith
Principal Product Architect
Farsight Systems Corporation
700 KEN PRATT BLVD. #204-159
LONGMONT, CO 80501-6452
303-774-9381 direct
303-484-6170 FAX
http://www.farsight-systems.com/
comments are invited on my encryption project

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Mark Zelden]

>Religion has probably caused more wars and suffering than communism
>or any other non-religious cause. 

It's also caused more B.S. threads on IBM-MAIN.  Come on folks...

Thank you 

Mark

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Howard Brazee]

On 22 Sep 2006 11:24:17 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>"These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated 
> by the Righteous.  "
...
>So while I understand what the phrase is trying to convey, it is wrong to say 
>all righteous people cause war and do evil things.  Righteous people can do 
>good as well.

So who implied otherwise?

As with business and with our tools (mainframe computers for
instance), we should never stop testing our solutions against the real
world. Computer "wars" are often fought by people who know their
solution is right.   Sure, nobody dies here, but we make sure we learn
what we want to learn - instead of what we should learn.

The more righteous a person (or company or nation) - the harder it is
to accept one might be wrong, and the more willing one is to do more
wrong.

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Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)

[Dean Kent]

Ooh - a topic I can contribute to!

Logical fallacy:  "Most accidents are caused by inattentive motorists.
Therefore all inattentive motorists cause accidents."

While the first statement may be true, the conclusion does not necessarily
follow.   Therefore, the statement that most wars are perpetrated by the
righteous does not necessarily imply that all righteous people start - or
are even involved with - wars.   In fact, it would be logically consistent
to say

"Most wars (and other evils) are perpetrated by the righteous, however most
righteous people are not evil nor do they perpetrate wars".

However, the phrase "Most program bugs are introduced by Unix and Windows
programmers, therefore all Unix and Windows programmers introduce bugs" is
probably correct.   ;-)

Regards,
   Dean (having some fun today).

- Original Message - 
From: "John H. Lang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Wars and Allies (was: The Fate of VM)


> "These days, most war (and lots of other evil) is perpetrated
>  by the Righteous.  "
>
> One really needs to beware of "Bumper Sticker Mentality", that of trying
to reduce complicated issues into a few words.  From the phrase above, one
implies then that it is bad to be righteous and in fact that it is an evil
thing.  As usual with bumper sticker words, they don't hold up very well
under scrutiny.  Some examples:
>
> 1. Women were righteous in their belief that they should get the vote and
be equal partners with men - was that wrong or evil?
> 2. Martin Luther King was righteous in his belief that all men are equal
and should be treated equally - was that evil.
> 3. Ceaser Chavev was righteous in his belief that farm workers should get
a fair shake - was that evil?
> 4. Our forefathers were righteous in their belief that we should be
separate from England - was that evil.
> 5. Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill were righteous in their belief
that Hitler needed to be stopped - was that evil?
>
> So while I understand what the phrase is trying to convey, it is wrong to
say all righteous people cause war and do evil things.  Righteous people can
do good as well.
>
> JL
>
> --
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