Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/09/2007 at 10:12 AM, Schwarz, Barry A [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I don't need to restart the thread on the virtues of keeping current and using supported hardware and software. I have a very conservative/non-adventurous/reluctant customer. They may be more adventuresome than they realize. Staying behind has risks, and going to current hardware without upgrading the software has risks. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 4:55 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC No. System z still IPLs in ESA/390 mode. A SIGP instruction must be explicitly issued by the operating system to switch into z/Architecture mode. Then why does SAPR say minimum of z/OS 1.4 with PTFs? Also, while bi-modal exists, it stops at 1.5. Both 1.4 1.5 go out of support on APR01. - Which has absolutely no effect on z/Linux, z/VM, or z/VSE. I only mention this to say that the HARDWARE still supports pure 31 bit systems. It is just z/OS which is not supported in 31 bit mode on z9. This is not a real technical decision, other than the decision that supporting 31 bit mode on a z9 is not fiscally efficient. (if there is such a phrase). -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Timothy Sipples wrote: Theoretically would it be technically possible to run a second level (or even third level, if necessary) instance of backlevel VM, then OS/390 1.3 within that, matching up the version combinations according to the published lists? We used to do exactly that! We ran VSE/ESA 2.4 under z/VM 4.4 and ran a copy of z/OS under VM/ESA. This prevented z/OS from switching to z/Architecture mode on a z800. (This was before the Bi-Modal Accommodation feature.) -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
At the risk of repeating myself, from the archives: http://bama.ua.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0604L=ibm-mainP=R6444I=1X=60035737B3F62727F2Y=d10jhm1%40us.ibm.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 00:56:20 -0400 Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU From: Jim Mulder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries??? In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 04/03/2006 10:02:11 PM: IIRC a z890 will only run a OS in 64-bit mode, no 31-bit mode, in an LPAR. It may be possible to run a non-64-bit OS under z/VM. B Sysprog wrote: Hello - I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old version of MVS/SP and DFP (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not an April fool joke) Putting aside the issue of lack of support for such an old release, I seem to recall that nothing older than OS/390 R10 will run on zSeries. Anybody have any positive comments on this? Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on zSeries? I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from 1995 and 2000, but nothing specifically addressing this scenario. A z890 is quite capable of running ESA/390 mode LPARs. In fact, every IPL starts out in ESA/390 mode, and then the operating system does a SIGP SARCH into z/Architecture mode if desired. z890, z990, and z9 machines have a 2-level TLB. Nothing lower than OS/390 2.10 will run reliably on a machine with a 2-level TLB because lower releases than 2.10 do not do some of the necessary TLB purges. I have heard some speculation that you might be able to get around this by running an older MVS under VM, with the following VM trace: #CP TRACE IPTE RUN NOTERM Of course, this would cause some performance degradation, since VM would intercepting and simulating every IPTE for this virtual machine. I don't know of anyone who has tried this. It was just some hall talk with a VM developer. There may be other issues that would prevent an older MVS from running on a modern machine, such as missing support for a larger storage increment size. The storage increment size might also be avoided under VM if the virtual machine does not have too much real storage defined - I think VM simulates the increment size but I wouldn't swear to that. And there may be other issues that I am not remembering. The bottom line is that you won't find anyone who knows for sure. The only way you could find out is to try it. And as others have pointed out, if by old, old you mean pre-MVS/XA, you can most definitely forget that. Support for pre-XA architecture was dropped by the 9672 G4 machines (9672-Rx5). Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Jim Mulder wrote: z890, z990, and z9 machines have a 2-level TLB. Nothing lower than OS/390 2.10 will run reliably on a machine with a 2-level TLB because lower releases than 2.10 do not do some of the necessary TLB purges. I have heard some speculation that you might be able to get around this by running an older MVS under VM, with the following VM trace: #CP TRACE IPTE RUN NOTERM Of course, this would cause some performance degradation, since VM would intercepting and simulating every IPTE for this virtual machine. I don't know of anyone who has tried this. It was just some hall talk with a VM developer. There may be other issues that would prevent an older MVS from running on a modern machine, such as missing support for a larger storage increment size. The storage increment size might also be avoided under VM if the virtual machine does not have too much real storage defined - I think VM simulates the increment size but I wouldn't swear to that. And there may be other issues that I am not remembering. The bottom line is that you won't find anyone who knows for sure. The only way you could find out is to try it. And as others have pointed out, if by old, old you mean pre-MVS/XA, you can most definitely forget that. Support for pre-XA architecture was dropped by the 9672 G4 machines (9672-Rx5). IPTE (as well as ISTE and ISTO) selective invalidate instruction(s) were part of original 370 virtual memory architecture. However, the 370/165 engineers had scheduling problem with retrofitting virtual memory hardware to 165. They proposed that they could shave six months on the hardware schedule if they could drop the selective invalidate instructions, r/o segment protect and some other features from the 370 architecture. at the architecture review board meetings ... the svs/mvs people said they saw no problem since they weren't ever planning on doing selective invalidate anyway ... that periodic use of PTLB (purge all table lookaside buffer) would be more than sufficient for any of their planned use of virtual memory). As a result, all of that got dropped from the original release of virtual memory hardware for 370 ... and the 370 models that had already implemented the full 370 architecture had to be retrofitted to only have the 370/165 subset implementation. In the morph of cp67 cms to vm370 cms (besides the name change from cambridge monitor system to conversational monitor system) ... there was big change to use 370 r/o segment protection. when the r/o segment protect feature got dropped from the architecture (as part of helping the 370/165 engineers make up six month schedule) ... it had significant long term effects on the whole way that vm370 had to go about supporting shared segment protection. In those days ... the architecture group had converted the architecture red book to cms script and were using conditional script controls when printing either the full architecture book or the subset that appeared as the principle of operations. slight overlap with this thread: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#29 old tapes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#31 old tapes Very early on, there was joint project between Endicott and the science center to modify cp67 to support 370 virtual memory virtual machines ... including all the features in the full, original 370 virtual memory architecture. This was in regular production use a year before the first 370 engineering machine with virtual memory support appeared (370/145) ... and long before any 370/165 machine with virtual memory support was available. misc. past posts mentioning the subject: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#63 Are the L1 and L2 caches flushed on a page fault ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#7 LINUS for S/390 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#8 Minimalist design (was Re: Parity - why even or odd) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#2 Handling variable page sizes? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#10 Coherent TLBs http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#23 Tweaking old computers? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#19 Multiple layers of virtual address translation http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#6 If the x86 ISA could be redone http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#8 vm/370 smp support and shared segment protection hack http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005e.html#53 System/360; Hardwired vs. Microcoded http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#45 Moving assembler programs above the line http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#10 Exceptions at basic block boundaries http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005j.html#39 A second look at memory access alignment http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#45 HASP/ASP JES/JES2/JES3 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006.html#13 VM maclib reference http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006.html#38 Is VIO mandatory? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006i.html#9 Hadware Support for Protection Bits: what does it really mean?
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
SAPR, and other *official* IBM statement don't tell you true about technical possibilities. Look at z/900 and z/800 machines. For z/800 the oldest supported MVS system was OS/390 2.9, not because earlier versions were unable to run - simply because V2R9 was the oldest *supported* version of the OS. You can easily find, that older releases of OS/390 were supported on z/900 and techically those machines were almost identical. BTW: The oldest *technically* feasible version of system for z/990 was OS/390 V2R10. It was also officially supported. Since there are no significant differences between z/990 and z9 it is likely that V2R10 will run on z9. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland Pommier, Rex R. wrote: Speaking of the SAPR, here is the relevant information out of ours: 4.1.1 Minimum Operating System Requirements The 2096 as well as Separate LPAR management of PUs requires at a minimum: * z/OS V1.5, V1.6, or V1.7 with PTFs. * z/OS V1.4 with z/OS V1.4 z990 Compatibility Support feature (no longer orderable) or z/OS V1.4 z990 Exploitation Support feature with PTFs. * z/VM V4.4, V5.1, or V5.2 with PTFs. * z/VSE V3.1. * VSE/ESA V2.7 with PTFs. * TPF 4.1 and z/TPF 1.1 * Linux on System z9 - the currently available distributions, SUSE SLES 9, Red Hat RHEL 4. One additional tidbit I just saw in the SAPR is that the z9BC will ONLY run in LPAR mode, not basic. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Theoretically would it be technically possible to run a second level (or even third level, if necessary) instance of backlevel VM, then OS/390 1.3 within that, matching up the version combinations according to the published lists? Totally unsupported, of course. IMHO do it only if you absolutely must and as a real transition vehicle. It'd also totally blow away the VWLC option -- not allowed with OS/390 on the box -- and, based on the relative size of the systems, that'd be unfortunate. - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:20:42 -0800, Edward Jaffe There is no option in z/VM to run a guest in ESA/390 mode on a machine supporting z/Architecture. IOW, if the guest understands z/Architecture, it will issue the SIGP to run that way and there's no way in z/VM to prevent that or hide the fact that the underlying hardware supports z/Architecture. OTOH, if the guest doesn't understand z/Architecture, it should happily run in ESA/390 mode under z/VM even when z/VM itself is running in z/Architecture mode. All boxes, z/Architecture or S/390, IPL in S/390 architecture mode. The operating system must take action to get into z/Architecture mode (SIGP SARCH). z/Architecture is where you get 64-bit registers and PSW, along with 64-, 31-, and 24-bit addressing modes. (Addressing mode does not affect register width.) In S/390 architecture mode (even on a z box!), only 31-bit and 24-bit AMODEs are available and the registers remain 32 bits wide and the PSW is in its traditional form. Naturally, z/VM presents a guest with the same story. Guests always IPL in S/390 architecture mode. If you have a z/VM V3, V4, or V5, running the z/Architecture build, then guests will be able to issue SIGP SARCH and get into z/Architecture mode themselves. If you're running a 31-bit version of CP, then CP has not issued SIGP SARCH and so cannot present z/Architecture CPUs to a guest. SIGP SARCH by a z/OS guest would fail in that case. A system that only understands S/390 will happily IPL, whether native or as a z/VM guest, and begin to run. As a guest, some of the machine Facilities are hidden from the guest and the guest knows not to try to use them. Older guests that weren't aware of such facilities won't trip over their lack. But sometime after the initial IPL is complete, the newly-hatched operating system begins to talk to the I/O subsystem and look around. In an LPAR this is usually where things typically fall apart. There can be chpid types (new cards) he doesn't understand, multiple channel subsystems, different operation of OSA or crypto cards, or indicators that tell him to talk to the I/O subsystem control functions in a different way. choke A z/VM guest, on the other hand, is talking to a virtual I/O subsystem, one that, of necessity, hides much of the real I/O configuration from the guest. CP is ready and able to deal with the real I/O config, but gives the guest a simplified view. So, when in doubt, try it out. But as has already been discussed, the answer to Will it run? and Is it supported? are two entirely different things. Sometimes the enabling PTFs are related to I/O, sometimes to the CPU, sometimes to crypto or OSA. Of course, even if unsupported you still have to pay the MLC if you continue to use the software. Watch out that your current pricing model might not be available on the new box. Alan Altmark IBM z/VM Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:05:45 +0900, Timothy Sipples wrote: Theoretically would it be technically possible to run a second level (or even third level, if necessary) instance of backlevel VM, then OS/390 1.3 within that, matching up the version combinations according to the published lists? No. z/VM has to have the needed support for the box. But even if you didn't need a newer z/VM, the guest always sees the new architecture of the box, even if some flavors remain hidden by CP. Subtle differences that are acceptable to, say, CP, might be objectionable to MVS. If an operating system will run on a z890 or z990, it has a reasonable chance to run on a z9. The step from z890/z990 to z9 was a relatively small one. It is a giant leap from z800/z900 to z890/z990.) Even though chpid types in the IOCDS are coded the same way, the cards identify themselves in new ways to the OS. The OS *must* have support for the new card designs because they behave differently. If you don't add support for xxx to the operating system, the OS won't be able to use it since xxx is the only flavor of the card in that box has been heard more than once. We get kind of wishy-washy on our answers about unsupported software because it's ... unsupported. We didn't test it, and we sure as heck won't fix it if it doesn't work, so it's speculation on our part. As everyone knows, we don't like our customers to build deployment plans based on speculation. Alan Altmark IBM z/VM Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. I don't need to restart the thread on the virtues of keeping current and using supported hardware and software. I have a very conservative/non-adventurous/reluctant customer. They never applied PTFs to 1.3 when it was supported. Our exhortations fail to overcome (possibly short-sighted) budget and training concerns. I don't even expect them to replace their 2003 which just went out of support in December but they have asked for a review of their options. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. We've run OS/390 2.10 as a VM Guest on a z9. That's as far back as we've gone. Bob Shannon Rocket Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schwarz, Barry A Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Running OS/390 on z9 BC Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. I don't need to restart the thread on the virtues of keeping current and using supported hardware and software. I have a very conservative/non-adventurous/reluctant customer. They never applied PTFs to 1.3 when it was supported. Our exhortations fail to overcome (possibly short-sighted) budget and training concerns. I don't even expect them to replace their 2003 which just went out of support in December but they have asked for a review of their options. I doubt that you can find a definative answer to that question, unless one of the z/OS developers here can do so. Official IBM wouldn't have that information. However, I'd bet that it would IPL. But any kind of hardware error recovery that needs the OS to help recover from? Forget it. Also, I doubt that you could generate a z9 compatable IOCDS using the HCD on OS/390 1.3. That means that you'd always need to use the stand alone IOCP on the HMC/SE to generate your IOCDS. And do it separately from the IODF generation needed for OS/390. Which means no dynamic hardware activate (software activate should still work). Which means that any hardware changes would require a POR to implement. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
- Original Message - From: Schwarz, Barry A [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:13 PM Subject: Running OS/390 on z9 BC Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. I don't need to restart the thread on the virtues of keeping current and using supported hardware and software. I have a very conservative/non-adventurous/reluctant customer. They never applied PTFs to 1.3 when it was supported. Our exhortations fail to overcome (possibly short-sighted) budget and training concerns. I don't even expect them to replace their 2003 which just went out of support in December but they have asked for a review of their options. Barry, z/OS V1R4 with PTF's is the minimum operating system required to run NATIVE on a z9. Unless you run VM as Bob Shannon does, you can't run OS/390 on a z9. My client is going to a z9 BC and upgrading from OS/390 V2R10 to z/OS V1R8 (it'll be a hoot). If you want a definitive answer to all this, look at Greg Dayne's Installing a z9 for the System Programmer session at SHARE. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schwarz, Barry A Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Running OS/390 on z9 BC Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. I don't need to restart the thread on the virtues of keeping current and using supported hardware and software. I have a very conservative/non-adventurous/reluctant customer. They never applied PTFs to 1.3 when it was supported. Our exhortations fail to overcome (possibly short-sighted) budget and training concerns. I don't even expect them to replace their 2003 which just went out of support in December but they have asked for a review of their options. SNIP If you mean natively, then given that OS/390 2.9 goes into a PI loop on a z/8x0 (not z/800) which could be put into 31bit mode (ARCHLEVEL=1?), I seriously doubt that it will be able to load the IPL text IF the z9(BC) does not natively support 390 Architecture (can be set to ARCHLEVEL=1 as opposed to only z/Architecture -- ARCHLEVEL=2). But to get the best answer, get the SAPR manual for that machine (the z/Series Biz partner you are using will have one). It will tell you the minimum supported SCP (operating system). You may find that z/VM is cheapest way to get there than upgrading the O/S immediately. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Thompson, Steve wrote: If you mean natively, then given that OS/390 2.9 goes into a PI loop on a z/8x0 (not z/800) which could be put into 31bit mode (ARCHLEVEL=1?), I seriously doubt that it will be able to load the IPL text IF the z9(BC) does not natively support 390 Architecture (can be set to ARCHLEVEL=1 as opposed to only z/Architecture -- ARCHLEVEL=2). OS/390 V2R10 was the first operating system release to support the 2-level TLB implemented on z990/z890 and higher processors. It's no surprise that OS/390 V2R9 has problems on these machines. But, that doesn't prove OS/390 V2R10 won't work. I agree z/VM will hide most of the incompatibilities. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:23 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC SNIP OS/390 V2R10 was the first operating system release to support the 2-level TLB implemented on z990/z890 and higher processors. It's no surprise that OS/390 V2R9 has problems on these machines. But, that doesn't prove OS/390 V2R10 won't work. I agree z/VM will hide most of the incompatibilities. SNIP The original question was: ...if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103.. My point was that if OS/390 V2R9 couldn't run on the z/890 box, it is VERY highly likely that OS/390 V1R3 system would not run (natively) on the z/9. The SAPR ref was on the off chance that IBM has stated that a bottom model may still have the ability to set ARCHLEVEL=1. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Speaking of the SAPR, here is the relevant information out of ours: 4.1.1 Minimum Operating System Requirements The 2096 as well as Separate LPAR management of PUs requires at a minimum: * z/OS V1.5, V1.6, or V1.7 with PTFs. * z/OS V1.4 with z/OS V1.4 z990 Compatibility Support feature (no longer orderable) or z/OS V1.4 z990 Exploitation Support feature with PTFs. * z/VM V4.4, V5.1, or V5.2 with PTFs. * z/VSE V3.1. * VSE/ESA V2.7 with PTFs. * TPF 4.1 and z/TPF 1.1 * Linux on System z9 - the currently available distributions, SUSE SLES 9, Red Hat RHEL 4. One additional tidbit I just saw in the SAPR is that the z9BC will ONLY run in LPAR mode, not basic. I also have a manual called the z9BC reference guide which echos the z/OS 1.4 +PTFs minimum requirement. Based on Steve's comments and the SAPR documentation, I would say that OS/390 1.3 will not run on the z9BC. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thompson, Steve Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schwarz, Barry A Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Running OS/390 on z9 BC Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. I don't need to restart the thread on the virtues of keeping current and using supported hardware and software. I have a very conservative/non-adventurous/reluctant customer. They never applied PTFs to 1.3 when it was supported. Our exhortations fail to overcome (possibly short-sighted) budget and training concerns. I don't even expect them to replace their 2003 which just went out of support in December but they have asked for a review of their options. SNIP If you mean natively, then given that OS/390 2.9 goes into a PI loop on a z/8x0 (not z/800) which could be put into 31bit mode (ARCHLEVEL=1?), I seriously doubt that it will be able to load the IPL text IF the z9(BC) does not natively support 390 Architecture (can be set to ARCHLEVEL=1 as opposed to only z/Architecture -- ARCHLEVEL=2). But to get the best answer, get the SAPR manual for that machine (the z/Series Biz partner you are using will have one). It will tell you the minimum supported SCP (operating system). You may find that z/VM is cheapest way to get there than upgrading the O/S immediately. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Thompson, Steve wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:23 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC SNIP OS/390 V2R10 was the first operating system release to support the 2-level TLB implemented on z990/z890 and higher processors. It's no surprise that OS/390 V2R9 has problems on these machines. But, that doesn't prove OS/390 V2R10 won't work. I agree z/VM will hide most of the incompatibilities. SNIP The original question was: ...if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103.. You're right! I got caught up in the later posts and missed the original point of the thread entirely. FWIW, I tried IPLing a totally *unmaintained* z/OS V1R1 system under a fully maintained z/VM 4.4 on our z9BC and it loaded a wait state code. The same system had previously been working on a z800 machine. My oldest system right now is OS/390 V2R8 running under VM/ESA on a final generation P/390 system. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. Consider looking at the announcements for z/990, z/890, and System z. One of them dropped support for 31-bit OS's, IIRC. I just can't remember which one. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Ted MacNEIL wrote: Can anyone tell me, or point me to a site where I can find out for myself, if OS/390 1.3 will run on a z9 BC as well as it does on a Multiprise 2003/103. Consider looking at the announcements for z/990, z/890, and System z. One of them dropped support for 31-bit OS's, IIRC. I just can't remember which one. No. System z still IPLs in ESA/390 mode. A SIGP instruction must be explicitly issued by the operating system to switch into z/Architecture mode. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
No. System z still IPLs in ESA/390 mode. A SIGP instruction must be explicitly issued by the operating system to switch into z/Architecture mode. Then why does SAPR say minimum of z/OS 1.4 with PTFs? Also, while bi-modal exists, it stops at 1.5. Both 1.4 1.5 go out of support on APR01. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:25 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC SNIP FWIW, I tried IPLing a totally *unmaintained* z/OS V1R1 system under a fully maintained z/VM 4.4 on our z9BC and it loaded a wait state code. The same system had previously been working on a z800 machine. My oldest system right now is OS/390 V2R8 running under VM/ESA on a final generation P/390 system. SNIP I talked with a VM guy. He thinks that you can set up the guest space for 31bit, with E-STORE and emulation of some things that OS/390 1.3 would need. I would, in this position (have an MP2/3000 and OS/390 1.x), arrange for a bit of time on a zVM system to do D/R testing and see what gives. Then if you can make it work on a z/box with z/VM, migrate to that. Cheaper by far than a rapid-install system, and the manual migration, testing time, etc. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Ted MacNEIL wrote: No. System z still IPLs in ESA/390 mode. A SIGP instruction must be explicitly issued by the operating system to switch into z/Architecture mode. Then why does SAPR say minimum of z/OS 1.4 with PTFs? Because that was the oldest z/OS operating system currently in support at the time the hardware became available. What has that to do with whether the hardware supports the ESA/390 architectural mode?? Also, while bi-modal exists, it stops at 1.5. Both 1.4 1.5 go out of support on APR01. Exactly! You're making my point! z/OS 1.4 and 1.5 run just fine in ESA/390 mode on System z processors! Also, keep in mind that z/OS is not the only mainframe operating system on the planet. For example, VSE/ESA 2.7 and z/VSE 3.1 run exclusively in ESA/390 mode and -- according to the SAPR -- do so on System z processors. z/VSE doesn't begin to execute in z/Architecture mode until release 4.1. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Because that was the oldest z/OS operating system currently in support at the time the hardware became available. What has that to do with whether the hardware supports the ESA/390 architectural mode?? I guess it's because I wouldn't like to run with an OS out of support? Maybe that bias has made me think it won't work? - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Also, while bi-modal exists, it stops at 1.5. Both 1.4 1.5 go out of support on APR01. Exactly! You're making my point! z/OS 1.4 and 1.5 run just fine in ESA/390 mode on System z processors! I thought the later ones don't support 31-bit? Maybe I'm fortunate enough that my management wants to keep current? - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Running OS/390 on z9 BC
Thompson, Steve wrote: I talked with a VM guy. He thinks that you can set up the guest space for 31bit, with E-STORE and emulation of some things that OS/390 1.3 would need. There is no option in z/VM to run a guest in ESA/390 mode on a machine supporting z/Architecture. IOW, if the guest understands z/Architecture, it will issue the SIGP to run that way and there's no way in z/VM to prevent that or hide the fact that the underlying hardware supports z/Architecture. OTOH, if the guest doesn't understand z/Architecture, it should happily run in ESA/390 mode under z/VM even when z/VM itself is running in z/Architecture mode. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
