Re: The future of PDSs
I observe that: z/MVS Home Edition was not suggested? Birger Heede IBM Denmark McKown, John wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John P Kalinich Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of PDSs Timothy Sipples of the IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote on 12/14/2007 12:11:48 AM: Peter Hunkeler writes: Isn't it about time for one more name change since z/OS is approaching release 10? Any nominations? :-) z/MVS for nostalgic reasons. Regards, John K Hum, Taking the Microsoft naming approach, I'd suggest a number of names for a spectrum of OSes with options. Say: z/BASIC, z/DEVELOPER, z/BUSINESS, z/ENTERPRISE, and of course z/ULTIMATE .. Keep in mind that I'm in the U.S.A. where we pronounce "z" as "zee", not "zed". Also keep in mind the bad German accent in English movies where "zee" is "the". For me, it's Friday morning. I haven't slept well due to a restless dog. And I'm insane. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On 14 Dec 2007 09:50:15 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: >- >Why the UNPRINTABLE should services for what should be a basic data set >type NOT be in the Nucleus? > >That all depends on how large you want NIP and the nucleus to be. >Personally, I'd rather not see my IPL time extended by services I choose >not to use. And since IBM has chosen NOT to show off the details of PDSE >support, none of us has a good idea of how large that support needs to >be, nor the amount of code necessary to reliably read PDSE members. >(Hint, Hint, IBM!!!) :-) Given that you will be stuck with PDSE for quite some time, putting the needed code for reading in the Nucleus shouldn't add that much (no more than a couple of hundred megabytes at disastrously worst). The code will be needed. Also if we are ever to go to FBA, it will have to be done. > >Since other mainframe PCM's have walked away from the 64-bit world, OCO >is even more senseless now than it was 20 years ago. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On 14 Dec 2007 09:50:22 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Corneel Booysen) wrote: >So I wonder if it is true that the original name of "HAL" was really a >dig at IBM. (As in each letter of the name is one place higher >alphabetically than the letters in IBM. Remember the evil computer >killed all the people... Clarke denies it, and I believe him. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On 14 Dec 2007 09:32:53 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rick Fochtman) wrote: >We know the speed of light; what's the speed of dark? A Nebula award winning novel with an autistic hero - written by a space opera writer with an autistic son. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Well, I couldn't get to that site. I got a cannot display message. However, the official Kubrickfilms/Warnerbros site here http://kubrickfilms.warnerbros.com/video_detail/2001/ verifies that in their FAQ section saying this. What do the letters HAL stand for? HAL stands for "Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer," "heuristic" and "algorithmic" being the two primary processes of learning. According to Kubrick and Arthur C. Clarke, the IBM connection (where the three letters in HAL happen to be exactly 1 letter before each letter in IBM in the alphabet) was strictly a coincidence. Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Jon Brock > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 12:20 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > No, they denied it. See here: > http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/faq/index.html#slot7 > > Jon > > > > > > I don't know if it was a dig, but Arthur C. Clark and Stanley Kubrek did > admit HAL was based on IBM's name. > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Dec 14, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Kelman, Tom wrote: How about something simple like "HAL" ala "2001: A Space Odyssey". Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 Tom: An idea but I think it won't get past the PR people as HAL turned out to be not so good. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
No, they denied it. See here: http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/faq/index.html#slot7 Jon I don't know if it was a dig, but Arthur C. Clark and Stanley Kubrek did admit HAL was based on IBM's name. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
>So I wonder if it is true that the original name of "HAL" was really a dig at >IBM. (Sorry about the previous [blank] post) I don't know if it was a dig, but Arthur C. Clark and Stanley Kubrek did admit HAL was based on IBM's name. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
So I wonder if it is true that the original name of "HAL" was really a dig at IBM. (As in each letter of the name is one place higher alphabetically than the letters in IBM. Remember the evil computer killed all the people... Never mind me - I did not sleep either :-) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 10:33 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Kelman, Tom > > How about something simple like "HAL" ala "2001: A Space Odyssey". Probably not available (in the US) for 50 years plus Arthur C. Clarke's remaining lifetime, due to copyright -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
- Why the UNPRINTABLE should services for what should be a basic data set type NOT be in the Nucleus? That all depends on how large you want NIP and the nucleus to be. Personally, I'd rather not see my IPL time extended by services I choose not to use. And since IBM has chosen NOT to show off the details of PDSE support, none of us has a good idea of how large that support needs to be, nor the amount of code necessary to reliably read PDSE members. (Hint, Hint, IBM!!!) :-) Since other mainframe PCM's have walked away from the 64-bit world, OCO is even more senseless now than it was 20 years ago. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
- For me, it's Friday morning. I haven't slept well due to a restless dog. And I'm insane. --- Aren't we ALL just a little insane? Look what we're doing for a living, what with these "dead" systems? :-) --- We know the speed of light; what's the speed of dark? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Kelman, Tom > > How about something simple like "HAL" ala "2001: A Space Odyssey". Probably not available (in the US) for 50 years plus Arthur C. Clarke's remaining lifetime, due to copyright -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
How about something simple like "HAL" ala "2001: A Space Odyssey". Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Chase, John > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 8:04 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples > > > > Peter Hunkeler writes: > > >Isn't it about time for one more name change since z/OS is > > approaching > > >release 10? > > > > Any nominations? :-) > > "Computer" should last through the Star Trek era > > -jc- > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Exactly. Jon As in "Boss! z/PLAIN, z/PLAIN!"? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Depending on how things go here in the next couple of years, either Nessus or Laomedon. Jon Any nominations? :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Brock > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 8:32 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > > Instead of z/BASIC, it should be "z/PLAIN." > > Jon As in "Boss! z/PLAIN, z/PLAIN!"? -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Instead of z/BASIC, it should be "z/PLAIN." Jon z/BASIC, z/DEVELOPER, z/BUSINESS, z/ENTERPRISE, and of course z/ULTIMATE . Keep in mind that I'm in the U.S.A. where we pronounce "z" as "zee", not "zed". Also keep in mind the bad German accent in English movies where "zee" is "the". -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On 13 Dec 2007 04:34:08 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: >It is certain that PDS's will exist for the entire life of z/OS (or >whatever name it might have down the road, if that ever changes again). > >It is almost certain that PDSEs will never be allowed in the LPALST >(chicken and egg problem, all of PDSE processing would have to be in the >nucleus in order for PDSEs to be processable in the LPALST, and would have >to avoid using any services that are currently made available later in the >IPL than when PLPA is built). As has been noted, modules can be added to >"dynamic LPA" from a PDSE after IPL (including "entire data sets' worth of >modules) Why the UNPRINTABLE should services for what should be a basic data set type NOT be in the Nucleus? It is the same insane design that made it so that you couldn't have SNA local 327x devices as consoles. If PDSE and zFS are basic, they should be in the Nucleus, possibly above the bar. It is this type of thinking that has crippled us with no FBA devices. > >Peter Relson >z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
If you go to this Red Book - http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246524.pdf - it mentions the "PDS Pain" white paper and lists the things wrong with PDS datasets. Just do a PDF search for "PDS Pain". However, I'd rather use a PDS than a PDSE for one that is not update very often. You don't have to worry about the directory filling up if it is a static PDS and it generally takes less disk space. My shop is disk space constrained. Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Ed Gould > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 7:52 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > On Dec 13, 2007, at 11:36 AM, Bob Shannon wrote: > > >> And, why would they? What's wrong with PDS? > > > > Refer to the "PDS Pain" white paper for what's wrong with PDSs. I > > suspect you already know. I didn't start this thread, I just > > provided an opinion. > > > > Bob Shannon > > Rocket Software > > > > Bob, > > Just curious I went to SHARE,ORG and nothing.. google got 2600+ hits > (nothing looked obvious on the first 100 hits or so. Can you give us > an idea where we might find it? > > Thanks, > > Ed > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples > > Peter Hunkeler writes: > >Isn't it about time for one more name change since z/OS is > approaching > >release 10? > > Any nominations? :-) "Computer" should last through the Star Trek era -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Thu, 2007-12-13 at 19:51 -0600, Ed Gould wrote: > On Dec 13, 2007, at 11:36 AM, Bob Shannon wrote: > > Refer to the "PDS Pain" white paper for what's wrong with PDSs > Can you give us an idea where we might find it? Dave Crow presented the "PDSPAIN White Paper" at session O232 of SHARE 70 (Anaheim, Feb 29 - Mar 4 1988). The proceedings of the time was paper and microfiche. Nine pages total. -- David Andrews A. Duda and Sons, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John P Kalinich > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:49 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > > Timothy Sipples of the IBM Mainframe Discussion List > > wrote on 12/14/2007 12:11:48 AM: > > > Peter Hunkeler writes: > >>Isn't it about time for one more name change since > >>z/OS is approaching release 10? > > > > Any nominations? :-) > > > > z/MVS for nostalgic reasons. > > Regards, > John K Hum, Taking the Microsoft naming approach, I'd suggest a number of names for a spectrum of OSes with options. Say: z/BASIC, z/DEVELOPER, z/BUSINESS, z/ENTERPRISE, and of course z/ULTIMATE . Keep in mind that I'm in the U.S.A. where we pronounce "z" as "zee", not "zed". Also keep in mind the bad German accent in English movies where "zee" is "the". For me, it's Friday morning. I haven't slept well due to a restless dog. And I'm insane. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
John P Kalinich wrote: Timothy Sipples of the IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote on 12/14/2007 12:11:48 AM: Peter Hunkeler writes: Isn't it about time for one more name change since z/OS is approaching release 10? Any nominations? :-) z/MVS for nostalgic reasons. IMHO it will be something hard to pronounce, hard to write (punctuations marks) and it cannot sound attractive for non-professionals. What about z109-/O.S ? Let's not forget about ugly primititve logo i.e. big gray square with two black splashes in a corner. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> Peter Hunkeler writes: >>Isn't it about time for one more name change since >>z/OS is approaching release 10? > > Any nominations? :-) > z/MVS for nostalgic reasons. > Regards, > John K That sounds good and I'll vote for that. warm regards, Raj -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Timothy Sipples of the IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote on 12/14/2007 12:11:48 AM: > Peter Hunkeler writes: >>Isn't it about time for one more name change since >>z/OS is approaching release 10? > > Any nominations? :-) > z/MVS for nostalgic reasons. Regards, John K -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Paul Gilmartin wrote: [...] o Cross system sharing of members and data sets That's one of the reasons why people still choose PDS. Sharing of PDSE out of sysplex scope is actually impossible. Sometimes PDSE performance can be worse than in PDS. See Barbara Nitz postings related to PDSE. What wasn't done: 1. PDSE still cannot be muti-vol. 2. Although members can have long-named aliases, the "basic" name remains 8-chracters. I'm aware it would require many changes in other components of the OS and some apps. BTW: It's Friday. Shall we (re)start discussion what should be changed in JCL? First shot: lower case acceptance! -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2007 r. kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA (w całości opłacony) wynosi 118.064.140 zł. W związku z realizacją warunkowego podwyższenia kapitału zakładowego, na podstawie uchwał XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA może ulec podwyższeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 zł. Akcje w podwyższonym kapitale zakładowym będą w całości opłacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Peter Hunkeler writes: >Isn't it about time for one more name change since >z/OS is approaching release 10? Any nominations? :-) - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:36:54 -0500, Bob Shannon wrote: >And, why would they? What's wrong with PDS? > It is what it is; WAD. >Refer to the "PDS Pain" white paper for what's wrong with PDSs. I suspect you >already know. I didn't start this thread, I just provided an opinion. > I can find excerpts in: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg246524.pdf PDSE was created as a result of an IBM User Group writing a paper titled "PDS PAIN". The problems with PDSs eliminated by PDSE include these: o Periodic compress not needed: Maintains list of reclaimable space o Fixed size directory eliminated (a source of high connect time): Indexed based entry o Need to re-write entire directory when adding members [Actually, just half, on the average. But deleting numerous members from a member list approaches the worst case unless you remember to first sort descending. -- gil] o Cross system sharing of members and data sets o Directory cannot be overwritten o Change in BLKSIZE making older members unusable o Storage efficiency improved in many cases (although small members can take up more space) o 16 extent restriction (PDSE allows 123 extents) o Need to delete aliases when a member is deleted: Alias deletes when member is deleted [From a UNIXcentric POV, that last can be considered a defect, not a virtue. -- gil] Is a citation of the original available? Thanks, gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Dec 13, 2007, at 11:36 AM, Bob Shannon wrote: And, why would they? What's wrong with PDS? Refer to the "PDS Pain" white paper for what's wrong with PDSs. I suspect you already know. I didn't start this thread, I just provided an opinion. Bob Shannon Rocket Software Bob, Just curious I went to SHARE,ORG and nothing.. google got 2600+ hits (nothing looked obvious on the first 100 hits or so. Can you give us an idea where we might find it? Thanks, Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:34:02 -0600, McKown, John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Hum, like a morphing of z/OS as legacy + UNIX to more of UNIX + legacy? >I.e. the UNIX portion "takes over" more and more of the initial >processing so that instead of IPL'ing z/OS and OMVS coming along later, >you boot OMVS and a z/OS kernel comes along later. All of LPALIB, >LINKLIB, PARMLIB, etc would be in UNIX files instead of PDS[E] datasets. > Stop it John! You're scaring the kids! At least this kid. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 2:30 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:33:19 -0500, Peter Relson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >It is certain that PDS's will exist for the entire life of z/OS (or > >whatever name it might have down the road, if that ever changes > again). > > > >It is almost certain that PDSEs will never be allowed in the LPALST > >... > > But then, PDS vs. PDSE wasn't the original conjecture. > > > "Other computer companies either did not see this advantage > or had OS structures that handled it other ways. > > Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for > decades? Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and > go in a different direction?" > > > I would interpret "different dirrection" to mean *really* different. > > Pat O'Keefe Hum, like a morphing of z/OS as legacy + UNIX to more of UNIX + legacy? I.e. the UNIX portion "takes over" more and more of the initial processing so that instead of IPL'ing z/OS and OMVS coming along later, you boot OMVS and a z/OS kernel comes along later. All of LPALIB, LINKLIB, PARMLIB, etc would be in UNIX files instead of PDS[E] datasets. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:33:19 -0500, Peter Relson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >It is certain that PDS's will exist for the entire life of z/OS (or >whatever name it might have down the road, if that ever changes again). > >It is almost certain that PDSEs will never be allowed in the LPALST >... But then, PDS vs. PDSE wasn't the original conjecture. "Other computer companies either did not see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a different direction?" I would interpret "different dirrection" to mean *really* different. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
>And, why would they? What's wrong with PDS? Refer to the "PDS Pain" white paper for what's wrong with PDSs. I suspect you already know. I didn't start this thread, I just provided an opinion. Bob Shannon Rocket Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Bob Shannon wrote: It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to exist. PDSs will be around as long as MVS. There is no way for IBM to insist that every user PDS be converted to a PDSE. And, why would they? What's wrong with PDS? -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:20 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: The future of PDSs > > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:38:32 -0600, Rick Fochtman wrote: > > >- > > > >>IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some > conveniences that > >>fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not > >>see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. > >> > >>Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using > for decades? > >>Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a > >>different direction? > >> > >-- > >It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? > > > >Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will > continue to exist. > > > Can PARMLIB be a PDSE? > > --gil No. It is read very early, before the LPA is build. Logically necessary since the datasets to be included in the LPA are specified in the PARMLIB concatenation. Also, the LOADnn member could be in SYS1.PARMLIB. And it must be read very early indeed. If IBM wanted to, I guess that they could have "something" which would be a basic installable z/OS image (core image in the old days) which could be a "temporary" system which could read PDSEs and create the "real" system. But it seems to be rather extreme. It reminds me, somehow, of a VM "NCSS"? (like CMS) or maybe the way that Linux boots. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:38:32 -0600, Rick Fochtman wrote: > >> - >> >>> IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some conveniences that >>> fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not >>> see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. >>> >>> Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? >>> Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a >>> different direction? >>> >> -- >> It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? >> >> Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to exist. >> > Can PARMLIB be a PDSE? > > --gil > During IPL I would think not. But I wouldn't be surprised if a PDSE parmlib activated with a SETLOAD command would work fine. -- Mark Jacobs Time Customer Service Tampa, FL -- The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change. - FORTRAN manual for Xerox computers -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:38:32 -0600, Rick Fochtman wrote: >- > >>IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some conveniences that >>fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not >>see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. >> >>Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? >>Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a >>different direction? >> >-- >It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? > >Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to exist. > Can PARMLIB be a PDSE? --gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:08:03 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote: >On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:09:40 +0100, R.S. wrote: >> >>IMHO both PDS and PDSE have some limitations which we would like to >>relieve. > >One in particular is the 64K track limitation because of TTRs in the directory. >Wouldn't it be interesting if PDSE could emulate very large tracks? It could >conceivably emulate a track that was 255 times BLKSIZE. > Is that not already a constraint? How many 80-character blocks can fit in a 3390 track? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Tom Marchant wrote: On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:09:40 +0100, R.S. wrote: IMHO both PDS and PDSE have some limitations which we would like to relieve. One in particular is the 64K track limitation because of TTRs in the directory. Wouldn't it be interesting if PDSE could emulate very large tracks? It could conceivably emulate a track that was 255 times BLKSIZE. I don't understand: 64k track is not a limit for PDSE. Are we talking about the same limitation ? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:09:40 +0100, R.S. wrote: > >IMHO both PDS and PDSE have some limitations which we would like to >relieve. One in particular is the 64K track limitation because of TTRs in the directory. Wouldn't it be interesting if PDSE could emulate very large tracks? It could conceivably emulate a track that was 255 times BLKSIZE. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
>.(or whatever name it might have down the road, >if that ever changes again). Isn't it about time for one more name change since z/OS is approaching release 10? -- Peter Hunkeler Credit Suisse -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
It is certain that PDS's will exist for the entire life of z/OS (or whatever name it might have down the road, if that ever changes again). It is almost certain that PDSEs will never be allowed in the LPALST (chicken and egg problem, all of PDSE processing would have to be in the nucleus in order for PDSEs to be processable in the LPALST, and would have to avoid using any services that are currently made available later in the IPL than when PLPA is built). As has been noted, modules can be added to "dynamic LPA" from a PDSE after IPL (including "entire data sets' worth of modules) Peter Relson z/OS Core Technology Design -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? > Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to > exist. PDSs will be around as long as MVS. There is no way for IBM to insist that every user PDS be converted to a PDSE. Bob Shannon Rocket Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Rick Fochtman wrote: [...] It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to exist. PDSE is allowed on LINKLIST and partially allowed on LPA (not at IPL time, can be added dynamically). However having PDSE instead of PDS does not give significant change. At least this is my understanding of thread author's intention. IMHO both PDS and PDSE have some limitations which we would like to relieve. BTW: PDSE relieved some restrictions, but introduced some new ones. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Fletcher, Kevin > > > -- > It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? > > Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will > continue to exist. > > Rick > > > > Rick, > > You can use PDSE in LINKLIST (not sure about LPALIST). We do > this for DB2. As of z/OS 1.7 you still can't specify PDSEs in LPALIST, but can add them dynamically after IPL. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
Kevin Fletcher of the IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote on 12/12/2007 08:44:22 AM: > > -- > It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? > > Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to > exist. > > Rick > > > > Rick, > > You can use PDSE in LINKLIST (not sure about LPALIST). We do this for > DB2. > The Language Environment CEE.SCEERUN2 PDSE is in our linklist. Regards, John K -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some conveniences that > fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not > see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. > > Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? > Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a > different direction? part of the original PDS design was trading off i/o resource vis-a-vis real-storage resource ... at a time when real storage was extremely constrained. some number of other systems ... especially those that came along later when real storage was a much less constrained resource ... made other kinds of implementation tradeoffs -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
-- It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to exist. Rick Rick, You can use PDSE in LINKLIST (not sure about LPALIST). We do this for DB2. Fletch -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
- IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some conveniences that fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a different direction? -- It depends. Are we now allowed to use a PDSE in LINKLIST or LPALIST? Unless or until that restriction is lifted, the PDS will continue to exist. Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: The future of PDSs
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee > > IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some conveniences that > fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not > see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. > > Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? > Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go > in a different direction? You can use z/OS UNIX files for a lot of things in "classic" MVS, but there are still a lot of things for which you can't. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
The future of PDSs
IBM created the PDS a long time ago - giving us some conveniences that fit within its OS design.Other computer companies either did not see this advantage or had OS structures that handled it other ways. Do we use PDSs now because that's what we have been using for decades? Or is it possible to still keep advantages of our OS and go in a different direction? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
