Re: USS and C
Timothy Sipples wrote: I wrote: ...if I were hiring a z/OS system programmer, and during the interview that person said, "I'm an excellent z/OS system programmer, but I refuse to have anything to do with z/OS UNIX System Services," I'd send that person back out the door very quickly. Radoslaw wrote: If I were hiring I would ask about other skills. Nobody knows everything. Specialization is a good thing. You might have missed some of the nuance in what I wrote. The interviewee, in my hypothetical example, expressed a firm unwillingness to even learn about z/OS UNIX System Services. If I were the interviewer, I would send that person out the door rather quickly and would not call back. Now I understand the nuance and agree. However I would do the same for unwillingness, not for USS. In other words, put any component name in place of USS and the problem is still the same. Problem with person. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2008 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA wynosi 118.642.672 zote i zosta w caoci wpacony. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
I wrote: >...if I were hiring a >z/OS system programmer, and during the interview that person said, "I'm an >excellent z/OS system programmer, but I refuse to have anything to do with >z/OS UNIX System Services," I'd send that person back out the door very >quickly. Radoslaw wrote: >If I were hiring I would ask about other skills. Nobody knows >everything. Specialization is a good thing. You might have missed some of the nuance in what I wrote. The interviewee, in my hypothetical example, expressed a firm unwillingness to even learn about z/OS UNIX System Services. If I were the interviewer, I would send that person out the door rather quickly and would not call back. I agree that "Nobody knows everything." However, in practically any job, one firm prerequisite is a willingness, preferably eagerness, to learn. Also, in this case we're talking about a z/OS system programmer and z/OS UNIX System Services. We're not talking about a basketball player and aircraft engine maintenance. While I wouldn't expect a z/OS system programmer to know everything, at this point in history (and increasingly so) I would expect him or her to have at least some (increasing) familiarity and competence with z/OS UNIX System Services. I don't know exactly why the original poster asked the question, but I took a guess and assumed it had to do with a "should I learn it?" question. To which I answer, yes, absolutely. - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan / Asia-Pacific E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
We do no C development. We are beginning to use the CICS Web Services Assistant, which interacts with the HFS, so we must become functionally literate with the Unix command line. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu]on Behalf Of P S Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:10 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: USS and C Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, for example)? My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with exceptions, of course). The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best sample set I can easily get at...! Thanks. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:10:02 -0600, P S wrote: >Do folks "care" about USS? We all do. Definitely. Without it, no zOS would run... >That is, do most z/OS shops actually use >USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, >for example)? Yes, for building and testing shell scripts to run Java application. And for the production run of these applications. >My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with >exceptions, of course). YMMV... >The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? Yes, we do. Around 60% of our production is C, be it that those are CICS and batch programs and run in the non-Unix environment. >And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do >most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? I'd say Unix System Services and C are two separate things. In some shops, I would imagine there would be overlap between the two, in others not at all. One does not need one to do the other and vice/versa. Cheers, Jantje. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
Timothy Sipples wrote: [...] For example, if I were hiring a z/OS system programmer, and during the interview that person said, "I'm an excellent z/OS system programmer, but I refuse to have anything to do with z/OS UNIX System Services," I'd send that person back out the door very quickly. It's a nonsensical statement. If I were hiring I would ask about other skills. Nobody knows everything. Specialization is a good thing. Last but not least I would ask myself: "Do I really need skills in this area?" The answer could be NO, Almost no, Yes, *but other person* does it. BTW: I observe that average or poor system programmers are usually extremely poor in USS area. To new feature My €0.02 -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2008 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA wynosi 118.642.672 zote i zosta w caoci wpacony. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? I don't have much knowledgea bout all this stuff (still learning), but if I got things right you can decide if your application runs in the POSIX-Environment or in the MVS-Environment not... So, if your C-programmer someday will encounter a function that can only be used with POSIX(ON), like the threading stuff for example, then he/she will switch it on and he/she will be happy that function fooba() now will work... Now - when this application runs it runs under USS (if I got all this stuff right), so. yes, UCC and C will/can overlap. bye, Michael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
C (the programming language) and z/OS UNIX System Services are two separate subjects. I wouldn't conflate the two. I agree with the comment that "basically everything" uses z/OS UNIX System Services to one degree or another -- and an increasing degree over time. It's an integral part of the operating system, it has been for an awfully long time, it continues to evolve and advance, and there are lots of middleware products that flat out wouldn't run without it. At this point in history I really wouldn't view z/OS UNIX System Services as anything particularly separate, except to the extent you'd view other subsystems as separate like the Communications Server for z/OS, SMF, etc. Why do you ask? If you're asking, "Should I learn more about z/OS UNIX System Services?" I'd probably answer with a question: "Do you want to maintain reasonablly current z/OS skills?" For example, if I were hiring a z/OS system programmer, and during the interview that person said, "I'm an excellent z/OS system programmer, but I refuse to have anything to do with z/OS UNIX System Services," I'd send that person back out the door very quickly. It's a nonsensical statement. My personal opinions. - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan / Asia-Pacific E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
No to USS. Yes to C. No to C under USS. No to overlap. HTH -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of P S Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:10 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: USS and C Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, for example)? My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with exceptions, of course). The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best sample set I can easily get at...! Thanks. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. The message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, printing, saving, copying, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete all copies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:10:02 -0600, P S wrote: >Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use >USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, >for example)? > >My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with >exceptions, of course). > >The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? > >And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do >most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? > >It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best >sample set I can easily get at...! > Generally, the answer is probably no to both. But the same can be said about many features of many components across the platform. How many shops use features like NFS, DFS/SMB, IPSEC, CSF, etc. The list can go on and on. We have a very robust and diverse platform. Plenty of shops use C (C++) and much more use Java (which means z/OS Unix as well). Obviously any shop who that been using WebSphere or the HTTP server has been using z/OS Unix and Java. Things you are "forced to" use it for include all the subsystems now (DB2, MQ, CICS, IMS) as well as many other IBM software products (TSM, Netview, COBOL, XML, etc.) and ISV software products. Don't forget about the ported tools also (especially OpenSSH). Even going back 7 years when I consulted full time - long before zAAPs, I had 2 clients starting to do a lot of Java (BPXBATCH, not WebSphere). Mark -- Mark Zelden Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO mailto:mark.zel...@zurichna.com z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/ Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
We've never found any need to use USS beyond what the OS requires, for TCP/IP, etc. We use very little C/C++; most of the "distributed" applications are written in JAVA, on various SUN platforms. P S wrote: Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, for example)? My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with exceptions, of course). The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best sample set I can easily get at...! Thanks. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Rick -- Remember that if you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
At our shop, C programming is done on z/OS since 1992, this is insurance math. The goal is to have the same source code on all platforms (WIN, OS/2, Unixes, z/OS), and for us this works perfectly. Until recently, we did no significant work on USS, but since 2 or 3 years USS is more and more used to build things for "normal" z/OS and to do other things related to the development process. Some of our people have a good knowlegde of UNIX tools and they like USS much more than the "classical" MVS. Further opinions below. Am Montag, 23. Februar 2009 17:10 schrieben Sie: > Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use > USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, > for example)? not most, but some, IMO. > > My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with > exceptions, of course). > > The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? some shops yes, even for business critical applications > > And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do > most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? IMO the two things are independent. We did C for a long time without using USS, and I know of others, where it is the same. > > It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best > sample set I can easily get at...! > > Thanks. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
P S wrote: Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, for example)? My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with exceptions, of course). The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best sample set I can easily get at...! Thanks. All interesting questions to me, especially, since I've developed six courses for z/OS UNIX (one of which discusses using Assembler, COBOL, PL/I, and C for writing z/OS UNIX applications). But only the intro course has garnered much interest (I've taught that probably a dozen times). My guess is there is not enough business case; and IBM hasn't really done the job of encouraging USS, since revenues seem to come more from WebSphere and zLinux movement. I've been trying to point out how you can use z/OS UNIX to host your website (Internet or corporate Intranet) using the free HTTP server that comes with z/OS (or even the newly ported Apache server, which is also free). It's all great fun and could be a money saver (I'm not really in touch with the prices for all this), but the story has not been well told. Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques ==> Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS <== ==> application developer toolkits. Sample code in four<== ==> programming languages, JCL to Assemble or compile, <== ==> bind and test. <== ==> http://www.trainersfriend.com/TTFStore/index.html<== -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:10:02 -0600, P S wrote: >Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use >USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, >for example)? > >My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with >exceptions, of course). > We would generally fit in the "no" category. I am really the only UNIX literate person on the Tech Services staff. I get it via Linux (FOSS bigot here!). The applications programmers know nothing of z/OS UNIX and are happy about it. >The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? We don't have a C compiler. > >And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do >most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? We did have a C compiler in the past but cost cutting killed it. When we had the C compiler, I (again) was the only user (another reason to kill it - lack of use). I was using it for normal batch work, not UNIX work. In particular, I was using C for some things that I would normally use HLASM for. > >It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best >sample set I can easily get at...! > >Thanks. -- John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: USS and C (also ShopZSeries, et. al.)
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:10:02 -0600, P S wrote: >Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use >USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, >for example)? > How does ShopZSeries fit into the "forced to" picture? How do shops that generally don't "care" about UNIX deal with the ShopZ paraphernalia? >My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with >exceptions, of course). > >The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
USS and C
Do folks "care" about USS? That is, do most z/OS shops actually use USS for anything beyond the things they're forced to (TCP/IP stuff, for example)? My experience suggests that the general answer is "No" (with exceptions, of course). The related question is: Do folks use C on z/OS much? And the converged question is: Do the two sets overlap? That is, do most/all of the folks who DO use C on z/OS do so under USS? It's interesting trying to figure this out, and this is the best sample set I can easily get at...! Thanks. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
