Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 14:12:19 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Out in the wider world, "Because I want to view directories on a 3270." is not 
>as valid reason to tell users that they can't use their native languages for 
>file names. Maybe we need an RFE for ISPF to support the EBCDIC transform of 
>Unicode, along with a TN3270 client that supports it.
> 
ISPF 3.17 works splendidly for files tagged UTF-8 "with a TN3270 client that
supports" thee characters in the content.

Alas, there's no way to tag the directory.

Alas, may decades ago ISPF Design issued a negative Statement of Direction;
that no terminal better than a 327x would ever be supported.

Still, I dream of a ported FOSS graphic file manager such as Thunar or Nautilus
as an X11 client.

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

Out in the wider world, "Because I want to view directories on a 3270." is not 
as valid reason to tell users that they can't use their native languages for 
file names. Maybe we need an RFE for ISPF to support the EBCDIC transform of 
Unicode, along with a TN3270 client that supports it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2022 8:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

W dniu 01.02.2022 o 18:26, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 23:30:59 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>>> 517 $ ls -altr
>>> total 32
>>> drwxr-xr-x  4 paulgilm  wheel  128 Jan 29 15:20 ..
>>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:22 נַפְתָּלִי בֶּנֶט
>>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:24 Владимир Путин
>>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:28 عبدالحميد محمد الدبيبة
>>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:30 Κατερίνα Σακελλαροπούλου
>>> drwxr-xr-x  6 paulgilm  wheel  192 Jan 29 15:31 .
>>> 518 $
>> Just to clarify: do you see the names as above in your 3270 emulator
>> window?
>>
> I have never had a UNICODE-capable 3270 emulator.  Does one exist?

So, I guess, you won't be able to view such nice filenames in 3270
emulator. It could mean some inconvenience.
Let's imagine you have to use pathname in your JCL job. Or in some
script. Or just type it in command line. More inconvenience.
And that's what I meant when joined discussion.
 From the other hand we have dataset names and more strict rules. And no
such troubles.
And I still did not get any answer for the following: Why do you want to
use such names?
No, "because I can" is IMHO not worth the problems described above.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 01.02.2022 o 18:26, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 23:30:59 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

517 $ ls -altr
total 32
drwxr-xr-x  4 paulgilm  wheel  128 Jan 29 15:20 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:22 נַפְתָּלִי בֶּנֶט
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:24 Владимир Путин
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:28 عبدالحميد محمد الدبيبة
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:30 Κατερίνα Σακελλαροπούλου
drwxr-xr-x  6 paulgilm  wheel  192 Jan 29 15:31 .
518 $

Just to clarify: do you see the names as above in your 3270 emulator
window?


I have never had a UNICODE-capable 3270 emulator.  Does one exist?


So, I guess, you won't be able to view such nice filenames in 3270 
emulator. It could mean some inconvenience.
Let's imagine you have to use pathname in your JCL job. Or in some 
script. Or just type it in command line. More inconvenience.

And that's what I meant when joined discussion.
From the other hand we have dataset names and more strict rules. And no 
such troubles.
And I still did not get any answer for the following: Why do you want to 
use such names?

No, "because I can" is IMHO not worth the problems described above.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 23:30:59 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>>>
>> 517 $ ls -altr
>> total 32
>> drwxr-xr-x  4 paulgilm  wheel  128 Jan 29 15:20 ..
>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:22 נַפְתָּלִי בֶּנֶט
>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:24 Владимир Путин
>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:28 عبدالحميد محمد الدبيبة
>> -rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:30 Κατερίνα Σακελλαροπούλου
>> drwxr-xr-x  6 paulgilm  wheel  192 Jan 29 15:31 .
>> 518 $
>
>Just to clarify: do you see the names as above in your 3270 emulator
>window? 
>
I have never had a UNICODE-capable 3270 emulator.  Does one exist?

>What kind of emulator, what OS on the desktop?
>
Mac OS X.  The results appear similar in ssh or VNC Nautilus file manager
 to a Linux guest sharing the folder, and Windows Explorer viewing a copy
on a FAT-32 USB flash drive.

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Peter Sylvester]

Hi,

the original problem is caysed by

 https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FTPSERVER-426

since Z/Os needs the EXTENSION UTF8 in the client, and this triggers sending 
FEAT before the login.

best

Peter Sylvester



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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 29.01.2022 o 23:46, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 23:02:48 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

Yes.  Kudos to ISPF 3.17.  II have created a file containing Cyrillic 
characters; tagged it as
UTF-8 (IBM-1208):
;
set my X3270 to IBM-880; and the characters automatically display properly.

Did you have to change terminal settings to see the names in cyrillic?


No problem to "see" them.  My desktop was UTF-8.  I didn't type them;
I generated an IBM-880 matrix with an awk script.


Well...
Let's assume the following case:
/UNdirectory:
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Hebrew_name
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Russian_name
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Berber_name
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Greek_name

Which names will be properly displayed at a time?


517 $ ls -altr
total 32
drwxr-xr-x  4 paulgilm  wheel  128 Jan 29 15:20 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:22 נַפְתָּלִי בֶּנֶט
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:24 Владимир Путин
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:28 عبدالحميد محمد الدبيبة
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:30 Κατερίνα Σακελλαροπούλου
drwxr-xr-x  6 paulgilm  wheel  192 Jan 29 15:31 .
518 $

I'll leave it to four experts to judge.  I copied/pasted strings from web pages.
No special manipulations except quoting with apostrophes.  They sound
plausible with Speech output.


Just to clarify: do you see the names as above in your 3270 emulator 
window?

What kind of emulator, what OS on the desktop?



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

SMP (without the E) used flaky member names. You couldn't specify them in your 
JCL, but then there was no reason to. Also, some RYO utilities that Gerhard 
(ז״ל) and I used quite heavily used a hyphen in a member name as a wildcard; I 
was quite unhappy when IBM made that illegal.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 9:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:34:36 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Cut and paste is quite useful in dodging keyboard issues, as are various 
>character map applications. Whiler my keyboard is configured as US 
>International, that still doesn't give me, e.g., Hebrew, so I rely on pasting 
>Hebrew text from other applications. Most of the virtual keyboard and 
>character map applications that I've seen cover quite a few languages.
>
Similarly useful are graphic file managers such as ISPF which allow
users and admins to manipulate files difficult to access from keyboard
or command line.

In self-training long ago, I created with STOW some members with
"invalid" names then deleted them with ISPF prefix commands.
TSO or JCL just said, "Syntax Error".

I suspect that if Gadi were to "pax -w" his desktop folders then
"pax -r" on z/OS, pax -r might perform a fictitious ISO8859-1 -> IBM-1047
translation.  Then if he did a "ls" via ssn, ssh would undo the
translation and he'd see Hebrew names.  Less hope for ISPF 3.17.

--
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 00:34:36 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Cut and paste is quite useful in dodging keyboard issues, as are various 
>character map applications. Whiler my keyboard is configured as US 
>International, that still doesn't give me, e.g., Hebrew, so I rely on pasting 
>Hebrew text from other applications. Most of the virtual keyboard and 
>character map applications that I've seen cover quite a few languages.
> 
Similarly useful are graphic file managers such as ISPF which allow
users and admins to manipulate files difficult to access from keyboard
or command line.

In self-training long ago, I created with STOW some members with
"invalid" names then deleted them with ISPF prefix commands.
TSO or JCL just said, "Syntax Error".

I suspect that if Gadi were to "pax -w" his desktop folders then
"pax -r" on z/OS, pax -r might perform a fictitious ISO8859-1 -> IBM-1047
translation.  Then if he did a "ls" via ssn, ssh would undo the
translation and he'd see Hebrew names.  Less hope for ISPF 3.17.

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

Cut and paste is quite useful in dodging keyboard issues, as are various 
character map applications. Whiler my keyboard is configured as US 
International, that still doesn't give me, e.g., Hebrew, so I rely on pasting 
Hebrew text from other applications. Most of the virtual keyboard and character 
map applications that I've seen cover quite a few languages.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 4:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

W dniu 28.01.2022 o 17:39, Tom Brennan pisze:
> On 1/28/2022 2:45 AM, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:
>> Maybe it is hard to understand for you, so I'll try to explain again:
>> Yes, I use Polish names in Poland. However my name is Radosław - note
>> the Ł character. But my signature is "Radoslaw". Why? For you.
> And thanks for that!  I still remember maybe 35 years ago I was
> walking out of work late in the day, and two co-workers were outside
> speaking Mandarin.  When they saw me they immediately switched to
> English, which surprised me.  All I can guess is they were being
> considerate in case I wanted to join the conversation. Pretty nice of
> them.
>
> As for file/dir names on Windows/Linux, I try to stick to these rules:
> #1 No spaces, which drives my co-workers crazy with the underscores.
> #2 Lower case.  And of course I only use characters available on my
> USA keyboard.

Fun story: I used to work for German employer. They sent me my passwords
(a lot of them) using some safe method. Some of the passwords are not
expired and in fact hard to change for new person on the board. One
password contain paragraph sign §.
The problem is the character is unavailable from English/US or Polish
keyboard! It is accessible as Shift+3 on German keyboard. The other
gotcha was Z letter. Why? Because German keyboard is QWERTZ, not QWERTY,
and you don't see password characters - so you don't know whether it is
Z or Y. Fortunately I've got "German" laptop with German settings and
paragraph was over "3" and Z was next to T.
It was fine until I started working and had to to type some "special"
characters like +-=./()  - German keyboard is completely different!
I customized system to have Polish keyb, but the keyboard remained
German. Of course I could attach my own keyboard.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 23:02:48 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>
>> Yes.  Kudos to ISPF 3.17.  II have created a file containing Cyrillic 
>> characters; tagged it as
>> UTF-8 (IBM-1208):
>> ;
>> set my X3270 to IBM-880; and the characters automatically display properly.
>
>Did you have to change terminal settings to see the names in cyrillic?
> 
No problem to "see" them.  My desktop was UTF-8.  I didn't type them;
I generated an IBM-880 matrix with an awk script.

>Well...
>Let's assume the following case:
>/UNdirectory:
>drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Hebrew_name
>drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Russian_name
>drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Berber_name
>drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Greek_name
>
>Which names will be properly displayed at a time?
> 
517 $ ls -altr
total 32
drwxr-xr-x  4 paulgilm  wheel  128 Jan 29 15:20 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:22 נַפְתָּלִי בֶּנֶט
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:24 Владимир Путин
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:28 عبدالحميد محمد الدبيبة
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 29 15:30 Κατερίνα Σακελλαροπούλου
drwxr-xr-x  6 paulgilm  wheel  192 Jan 29 15:31 .
518 $ 

I'll leave it to four experts to judge.  I copied/pasted strings from web pages.
No special manipulations except quoting with apostrophes.  They sound
plausible with Speech output.

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Peter Sylvester]

Hi

does enabling the FEAT extension for FTP solve the problem?

Peter

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Tom Brennan]

LOL - reminds me of coming back from lunch with a few co-workers 
including one woman first in line for the entrance door.  She went up to 
the door and just stood there looking at it, waiting for one of the guys 
to open it for her.  Cracked me up :)


On 1/29/2022 12:36 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Puts me in mind of something I read years ago, probably in Reader's Digest, an exchange 
heard at a doorway:  "Don't open the door for me because I'm a woman."

 "I'm not.  I'm opening the door for you because I'm a gentleman."

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is important to realize that any lock can be picked with a big enough hammer. 
 -Sun System & Network Admin manual */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 18:38

Of course not, just like women don't force me to open the door for them.
   But I still do.

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.



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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 28.01.2022 o 18:00, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:54:38 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Businesses with local customers and employees want to make things comfortable 
and convenient for them. Some of those customers and employees may not even 
know the Roman alphabet. Yes, if they have foreign customers then their 
correspondence may use other scripts, but those customers would not normally be 
dealing with local files and would not normally be concerned with their names. 
Transliterations are often dicey at best.


Yes.  Kudos to ISPF 3.17.  II have created a file containing Cyrillic 
characters; tagged it as
UTF-8 (IBM-1208):
;
set my X3270 to IBM-880; and the characters automatically display properly.


Did you have to change terminal settings to see the names in cyrillic?
Well...
Let's assume the following case:
/UNdirectory:
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Hebrew_name
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Russian_name
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Berber_name
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 Greek_name

Which names will be properly displayed at a time?


Disclaimer: I don't fight, I discuss. I just asked OP about reasons and 
actually did not get answer. Of course if you want to use national names 
for system objects - feel free to do that. Your choice.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 28.01.2022 o 17:39, Tom Brennan pisze:

On 1/28/2022 2:45 AM, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:

Maybe it is hard to understand for you, so I'll try to explain again:
Yes, I use Polish names in Poland. However my name is Radosław - note 
the Ł character. But my signature is "Radoslaw". Why? For you. 
And thanks for that!  I still remember maybe 35 years ago I was 
walking out of work late in the day, and two co-workers were outside 
speaking Mandarin.  When they saw me they immediately switched to 
English, which surprised me.  All I can guess is they were being 
considerate in case I wanted to join the conversation. Pretty nice of 
them.


As for file/dir names on Windows/Linux, I try to stick to these rules: 
#1 No spaces, which drives my co-workers crazy with the underscores.  
#2 Lower case.  And of course I only use characters available on my 
USA keyboard.


Fun story: I used to work for German employer. They sent me my passwords 
(a lot of them) using some safe method. Some of the passwords are not 
expired and in fact hard to change for new person on the board. One 
password contain paragraph sign §.
The problem is the character is unavailable from English/US or Polish 
keyboard! It is accessible as Shift+3 on German keyboard. The other 
gotcha was Z letter. Why? Because German keyboard is QWERTZ, not QWERTY, 
and you don't see password characters - so you don't know whether it is 
Z or Y. Fortunately I've got "German" laptop with German settings and 
paragraph was over "3" and Z was next to T.
It was fine until I started working and had to to type some "special" 
characters like +-=./()  - German keyboard is completely different!
I customized system to have Polish keyb, but the keyboard remained 
German. Of course I could attach my own keyboard.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Bob Bridges]

Puts me in mind of something I read years ago, probably in Reader's Digest, an 
exchange heard at a doorway:  "Don't open the door for me because I'm a woman."

 "I'm not.  I'm opening the door for you because I'm a gentleman."

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is important to realize that any lock can be picked with a big enough 
hammer.  -Sun System & Network Admin manual */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 18:38

Of course not, just like women don't force me to open the door for them. 
  But I still do.

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Tom Brennan]

On 1/28/2022 12:05 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:39:19 -0800, Tom Brennan wrote:


And thanks for that!  I still remember maybe 35 years ago I was walking
out of work late in the day, and two co-workers were outside speaking
Mandarin.  When they saw me they immediately switched to English, which
surprised me.  All I can guess is they were being considerate in case I
wanted to join the conversation.  Pretty nice of them.


Would you begrudge them the complementary courtesy of allowing them to
use their chosen language on their desktop computers?



Of course not, just like women don't force me to open the door for them. 
 But I still do.


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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:39:19 -0800, Tom Brennan wrote:
>
>And thanks for that!  I still remember maybe 35 years ago I was walking
>out of work late in the day, and two co-workers were outside speaking
>Mandarin.  When they saw me they immediately switched to English, which
>surprised me.  All I can guess is they were being considerate in case I
>wanted to join the conversation.  Pretty nice of them.
>
Would you begrudge them the complementary courtesy of allowing them to
use their chosen language on their desktop computers?

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 17:57:13 +, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

>Does z/OS not comply with Unicode bidi rules for code page 1208?
>
>For older code pages, IBM doesn't really have a choice but the use the 
>original text order; I'd expect the same issue on old PC code pages.
> 
Does 424 count as "old"?

Does the file name in the desktop directory excerpt below look OK?  It sounds
OK to my anglophone ears when I enable "speak text".

Why does this work fine on my desktop, but not on a z 3 orders of magnitude 
costlier?
>
>789 $ ls -alR
>./Hebrew:
>total 8
>drwxr-xr-x  3 paulgilm  wheel   96 Jan 27 08:43 .
>drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 ..
>-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 27 08:43  שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם
>790 $
-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

Does z/OS not comply with Unicode bidi rules for code page 1208?

For older code pages, IBM doesn't really have a choice but the use the original 
text order; I'd expect the same issue on old PC code pages.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:00 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:54:38 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>Businesses with local customers and employees want to make things comfortable 
>and convenient for them. Some of those customers and employees may not even 
>know the Roman alphabet. Yes, if they have foreign customers then their 
>correspondence may use other scripts, but those customers would not normally 
>be dealing with local files and would not normally be concerned with their 
>names. Transliterations are often dicey at best.
>
Yes.  Kudos to ISPF 3.17.  II have created a file containing Cyrillic 
characters; tagged it as
UTF-8 (IBM-1208):
<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=descriptions-chtag-change-file-tag-information>;
set my X3270 to IBM-880; and the characters automatically display properly.

Alas, only basefiles can be tagged, not directories.  Tagging directories should
be an RFE candidate so directory listings could be displayed properly.  My
sample directory listing, on a desktop:

789 $ ls -alR
./Hebrew:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  3 paulgilm  wheel   96 Jan 27 08:43 .
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 27 08:43 שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם
790 $

One potential problem: I'd expect not only the names but also the content of
the OP's files to be Hebrew.  But z/OS expects Hebrew text to be stored
backwards.  Will this cause problems?

--
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:54:38 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
>Businesses with local customers and employees want to make things comfortable 
>and convenient for them. Some of those customers and employees may not even 
>know the Roman alphabet. Yes, if they have foreign customers then their 
>correspondence may use other scripts, but those customers would not normally 
>be dealing with local files and would not normally be concerned with their 
>names. Transliterations are often dicey at best.
>
Yes.  Kudos to ISPF 3.17.  II have created a file containing Cyrillic 
characters; tagged it as
UTF-8 (IBM-1208):
;
set my X3270 to IBM-880; and the characters automatically display properly.

Alas, only basefiles can be tagged, not directories.  Tagging directories should
be an RFE candidate so directory listings could be displayed properly.  My
sample directory listing, on a desktop:

789 $ ls -alR
./Hebrew:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  3 paulgilm  wheel   96 Jan 27 08:43 .
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 27 08:43 שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם
790 $ 

One potential problem: I'd expect not only the names but also the content of
the OP's files to be Hebrew.  But z/OS expects Hebrew text to be stored
backwards.  Will this cause problems?

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Tom Brennan]

On 1/28/2022 2:45 AM, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:

Maybe it is hard to understand for you, so I'll try to explain again:
Yes, I use Polish names in Poland. However my name is Radosław - note 
the Ł character. But my signature is "Radoslaw". Why? For you. 
And thanks for that!  I still remember maybe 35 years ago I was walking 
out of work late in the day, and two co-workers were outside speaking 
Mandarin.  When they saw me they immediately switched to English, which 
surprised me.  All I can guess is they were being considerate in case I 
wanted to join the conversation.  Pretty nice of them.


As for file/dir names on Windows/Linux, I try to stick to these rules: 
#1 No spaces, which drives my co-workers crazy with the underscores.  #2 
Lower case.  And of course I only use characters available on my USA 
keyboard.


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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

Maybe it is hard to understand for you, so I'll try to explain again:

Businesses with local customers and employees want to make things comfortable 
and convenient for them. Some of those customers and employees may not even 
know the Roman alphabet. Yes, if they have foreign customers then their 
correspondence may use other scripts, but those customers would not normally be 
dealing with local files and would not normally be concerned with their names. 
Transliterations are often dicey at best.

As for e-mail, why has IETF bothered to issue RFCs  5335, 5336,  6530, 6533 if 
it is a nonissue?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 5:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

Maybe it is hard to understand for you, so I'll try to explain again:
Yes, I use Polish names in Poland. However my name is Radosław - note
the Ł character. But my signature is "Radoslaw". Why? For you. For you,
and for those who does not know Polish. Vast majority of Hebrew,
Russian, Bulgarian, Greek, etc. names are also somehow "translated" (or
transliterated) to latin. I mean email, etc.
My company email id contains radoslaw.skorupka - again no polish
characters.
And my datasets names are also without ĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŹŻ. Datasets and
filenames. Why? Just for convenience. Could it be a problem? Author of
the thread has such problem.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 28.01.2022 o 01:57, Seymour J Metz pisze:
> Do you use Polish names in Poland? Do they use French names in France? Why 
> wouldn't somebody use their native language for file names?
>
> The rest of the world is, or is rapidly becoming, Unicode. Expecting users to 
> confine their file names to an 8-bit code page is an exercise in futility.
>
> I'm comfortable with EBCDIC, but outsize of z it's becoming increasingly more 
> irrelevant.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 5:32 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names
>
> W dniu 27.01.2022 o 22:01, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
>> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:22:02 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>>>  ...
>>> Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like
>>> Polish, Spanish, German, etc.
>>>
>> Harder only for obsolete computers.
> No, it's harder for users.
> I did use (play with) very strange characters in PC-DOS, 30+ years ago.
> I did play with Hebrew Windows 3.1, etc.
> However I see no technical reason to use such names in production.
> Your new_and_shining computer can manage any character, but maybe
> someone has older terminal or connects from
> also_new_and_shining_BUT_DIFFERENT computer and then my Ł would become ⁴
> or so.
>
> BTW: In the very old days my master thesis was crippled by slightly
> different versions of MS Word. ł was changed to 3 upper index. It
> happened in math formulas only. And the ł was in lower index. Inception...
> Of course it was data, not filename. The filename was in 8.3 format.
>
> Nevermind, this is off-topic.
> My question was WHY? Why bother with non-typical names? What is the
> rationale behind?
> As far as I know, no one tries to use Hebrew or Cyrillic characters in
> dataset or member names. Even no lowercase.
> And of course it caused some troubles - that's why we see this thread on
> the list.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

Maybe it is hard to understand for you, so I'll try to explain again:
Yes, I use Polish names in Poland. However my name is Radosław - note 
the Ł character. But my signature is "Radoslaw". Why? For you. For you, 
and for those who does not know Polish. Vast majority of Hebrew, 
Russian, Bulgarian, Greek, etc. names are also somehow "translated" (or 
transliterated) to latin. I mean email, etc.
My company email id contains radoslaw.skorupka - again no polish 
characters.
And my datasets names are also without ĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŹŻ. Datasets and 
filenames. Why? Just for convenience. Could it be a problem? Author of 
the thread has such problem.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 28.01.2022 o 01:57, Seymour J Metz pisze:

Do you use Polish names in Poland? Do they use French names in France? Why 
wouldn't somebody use their native language for file names?

The rest of the world is, or is rapidly becoming, Unicode. Expecting users to 
confine their file names to an 8-bit code page is an exercise in futility.

I'm comfortable with EBCDIC, but outsize of z it's becoming increasingly more 
irrelevant.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 5:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

W dniu 27.01.2022 o 22:01, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:22:02 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

 ...
Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like
Polish, Spanish, German, etc.


Harder only for obsolete computers.

No, it's harder for users.
I did use (play with) very strange characters in PC-DOS, 30+ years ago.
I did play with Hebrew Windows 3.1, etc.
However I see no technical reason to use such names in production.
Your new_and_shining computer can manage any character, but maybe
someone has older terminal or connects from
also_new_and_shining_BUT_DIFFERENT computer and then my Ł would become ⁴
or so.

BTW: In the very old days my master thesis was crippled by slightly
different versions of MS Word. ł was changed to 3 upper index. It
happened in math formulas only. And the ł was in lower index. Inception...
Of course it was data, not filename. The filename was in 8.3 format.

Nevermind, this is off-topic.
My question was WHY? Why bother with non-typical names? What is the
rationale behind?
As far as I know, no one tries to use Hebrew or Cyrillic characters in
dataset or member names. Even no lowercase.
And of course it caused some troubles - that's why we see this thread on
the list.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

Do you use Polish names in Poland? Do they use French names in France? Why 
wouldn't somebody use their native language for file names?

The rest of the world is, or is rapidly becoming, Unicode. Expecting users to 
confine their file names to an 8-bit code page is an exercise in futility.

I'm comfortable with EBCDIC, but outsize of z it's becoming increasingly more 
irrelevant.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 5:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

W dniu 27.01.2022 o 22:01, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:22:02 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>> ...
>> Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like
>> Polish, Spanish, German, etc.
>>
> Harder only for obsolete computers.

No, it's harder for users.
I did use (play with) very strange characters in PC-DOS, 30+ years ago.
I did play with Hebrew Windows 3.1, etc.
However I see no technical reason to use such names in production.
Your new_and_shining computer can manage any character, but maybe
someone has older terminal or connects from
also_new_and_shining_BUT_DIFFERENT computer and then my Ł would become ⁴
or so.

BTW: In the very old days my master thesis was crippled by slightly
different versions of MS Word. ł was changed to 3 upper index. It
happened in math formulas only. And the ł was in lower index. Inception...
Of course it was data, not filename. The filename was in 8.3 format.

Nevermind, this is off-topic.
My question was WHY? Why bother with non-typical names? What is the
rationale behind?
As far as I know, no one tries to use Hebrew or Cyrillic characters in
dataset or member names. Even no lowercase.
And of course it caused some troubles - that's why we see this thread on
the list.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 27.01.2022 o 22:01, Paul Gilmartin pisze:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:22:02 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:

...
Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like
Polish, Spanish, German, etc.


Harder only for obsolete computers.


No, it's harder for users.
I did use (play with) very strange characters in PC-DOS, 30+ years ago. 
I did play with Hebrew Windows 3.1, etc.

However I see no technical reason to use such names in production.
Your new_and_shining computer can manage any character, but maybe 
someone has older terminal or connects from 
also_new_and_shining_BUT_DIFFERENT computer and then my Ł would become ⁴ 
or so.


BTW: In the very old days my master thesis was crippled by slightly 
different versions of MS Word. ł was changed to 3 upper index. It 
happened in math formulas only. And the ł was in lower index. Inception...

Of course it was data, not filename. The filename was in 8.3 format.

Nevermind, this is off-topic.
My question was WHY? Why bother with non-typical names? What is the 
rationale behind?
As far as I know, no one tries to use Hebrew or Cyrillic characters in 
dataset or member names. Even no lowercase.
And of course it caused some troubles - that's why we see this thread on 
the list.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:22:02 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  wrote:
>...
>Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like
>Polish, Spanish, German, etc.
>
Harder only for obsolete computers.  An example from the archive I posted 
lately:

784 $ ls -alR
total 16
drwxr-xr-x   5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 .
drwxr-xr-x  18 paulgilm  wheel  576 Jan 27 13:47 ..
drwxr-xr-x   3 paulgilm  wheel   96 Jan 27 08:43 Hebrew
-rw-r--r--   1 paulgilm  wheel  360 Jan 27 13:49 Hebrew.pax.Z
-rwxr-xr-x   1 paulgilm  wheel  686 Jan 27 13:48 uu

./Hebrew:
total 8
drwxr-xr-x  3 paulgilm  wheel   96 Jan 27 08:43 .
drwxr-xr-x  5 paulgilm  wheel  160 Jan 27 13:50 ..
-rw-r--r--  1 paulgilm  wheel   29 Jan 27 08:43 שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם
785 $ 

-- 
gil

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Seymour J Metz]

If you can have encoded Unicode in domain names and e-mail addresses, why not 
in file names. The IETF is moving in the direction of Unicode encoded as IDN 
and UTF-8; why not file systems?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Radoslaw Skorupka [r.skoru...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

W dniu 27.01.2022 o 07:08, Gadi Ben-Avi pisze:
> Hi,
> We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's name 
> contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
> How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
> If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get all types 
> of weird named, showing that the translation is not being done correctly.

Stupid question: why?
Why can't you avoid using Hebrew characters in the directory name?
(it's not political)
Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like
Polish, Spanish, German, etc.
However even in Polish I strictly avoid to use Polish characters for
system objects. Polish data or comments, even messages - OK. Why
directories? To be honest I do the same on localized versions of Windows
or Linux. Just to avoid problems which I can easily avoid.

BTW: long time ago we were playing with strange unix filenames like *.
Good for jokes, but I would not use "*" filename in production.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 27.01.2022 o 07:08, Gadi Ben-Avi pisze:

Hi,
We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's name 
contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get all types 
of weird named, showing that the translation is not being done correctly.


Stupid question: why?
Why can't you avoid using Hebrew characters in the directory name?
(it's not political)
Hebrew is much harder (for computers) than "latin-like" alphabets like 
Polish, Spanish, German, etc.
However even in Polish I strictly avoid to use Polish characters for 
system objects. Polish data or comments, even messages - OK. Why 
directories? To be honest I do the same on localized versions of Windows 
or Linux. Just to avoid problems which I can easily avoid.


BTW: long time ago we were playing with strange unix filenames like *. 
Good for jokes, but I would not use "*" filename in production.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 06:08:04 +, Gadi Ben-Avi wrote:
>
>We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's name 
>contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
>How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
>If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get all types 
>of weird named, showing that the translation is not being done correctly.
>
>We are using z/OS v2.3
> 
I'll guess that FTP translates filenames from ISO8859-1(?) to IBM-1047 (500?)
(037?) (424?) and the multi-byte UTF-8 characters become "weird names".

I'll try to attach a pax archive of a Hebrew-named file for people to play with.

-- 
gil


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#! /bin/sh -x
# Run thsi script or paste into uudecode.
# Safest to extract in an empty directory.
uudecode -i <<{endmime}

( Comments hardly matter. )

begin-base64 644 Hebrew.pax.Z
H52QSMqIkVPmDoCDCBMqXMiwocOHECNKRAijIowbNWqAsHjRhkaOFjeCBAkiBo0YN2jUmGGj5Q2R
MWbUaAmixsSbOHPq3Amgzhw6YeQAqAgnTB02Z9KwacMz4R00ZcqwabpwJAyRJKlq3cq1q1eeAQcW
fHEtlTVc1wJd43StkrVc1zqBuCbKmqy11mpdy3RtkzVbcb8KVsjRBg0aWDt+HJkYpMySJ1OubGnj
ZUUZlWduHMy5M0OfQIUSNYpUKVOtT6NO7Wq1cUUQnmPLni2YCpo6IJSEcQNChmUcOmjM0FEjBogm
U6j0hiFDhgLa0KNLn069uvXr2LNr3869u/fv4MOLH0++vPnz6NOrX8++vfv38OPLn0+/vv37+PPr
38+/v///AAYo4IAEFmjggQgmqOCCDDbo4IMQRijhhBRWaOGFGGao4YYcdujhhyCGKOKIJJZo4oko
pqjiiiy26OKLMMYo44w01lgi
 
{endmime}



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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[almog100w]

Gadi, 
You have to change the control connection translation
Build a new FTCDATA member, change CTRLCONN to whatever fits you (maybe 
IBM-1208 or IBM-1255) and use it in your batch job by SYSFTPD DD card

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Gadi Ben-Avi
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:33 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

SBDATACONN works for transferring data, not for commands.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Roberto Halais
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

Try using the SBDATACONN translation parameter.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:09 AM Gadi Ben-Avi  wrote:

> Hi,
> We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's 
> name contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
> How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
> If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get 
> all types of weird named, showing that the translation is not being 
> done correctly.
>
> We are using z/OS v2.3
>
> Thanks
>
> Gadi
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
--
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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Gadi Ben-Avi]

SBDATACONN works for transferring data, not for commands.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Roberto Halais
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

Try using the SBDATACONN translation parameter.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:09 AM Gadi Ben-Avi  wrote:

> Hi,
> We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's 
> name contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
> How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
> If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get 
> all types of weird named, showing that the translation is not being 
> done correctly.
>
> We are using z/OS v2.3
>
> Thanks
>
> Gadi
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
--
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Re: Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Roberto Halais]

Try using the SBDATACONN translation parameter.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 2:09 AM Gadi Ben-Avi  wrote:

> Hi,
> We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's
> name contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
> How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
> If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get all
> types of weird named, showing that the translation is not being done
> correctly.
>
> We are using z/OS v2.3
>
> Thanks
>
> Gadi
>
>
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Directories on ft server with Hebrew names

[Gadi Ben-Avi]

Hi,
We have a need to transfer files to an FTP server to a directory who's name 
contains Hebrew characters. The encoding is UTF-8.
How do I configure the FTP client on z/OS to allow this?
If I do a directory listing on the level above the directory, I get all types 
of weird named, showing that the translation is not being done correctly.

We are using z/OS v2.3

Thanks

Gadi


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