Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Staller, Allan]

Agreed!


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Ed Finnell

ISTM it's not the software but the management of the software that's sorely  
lacking. Seems to be no concept of service levels or availability, Other than 
us yakking about it, it's probably costing them big time in productivity and 
efficiency. But then you'd have to be measuring it to notice.
 

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Charles Mills]

Yeah, that's the one advantage as I see it of KC. If I have some very simple
entry-level question about some IBM product I do not usually work with (and
therefore do not have the .boo's or PDFs on local disk) I can do a quick
Google search and find basic information.

Seems to me I could do that before KC came about, though, also.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 5:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

As per Barbara and Tony, I generally don't join into opinion threads.

However, I haven't noticed anyone mention the advantage (and as far as I can
tell, the only advantage) of Knowledge Centres: they are web-searchable,
they will turn up in  results.
Personally, I think that's a big plus over most other software suppliers'
documentation, especially for people new to mainframe.

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Anthony Thompson]

As per Barbara and Tony, I generally don't join into opinion threads.

However, I haven't noticed anyone mention the advantage (and as far as I can 
tell, the only advantage) of Knowledge Centres: they are web-searchable, they 
will turn up in  results.  Personally, 
I think that's a big plus over most other software suppliers' documentation, 
especially for people new to mainframe.

Having said that, I download the PDF's. Much easier to browse through.

Ant.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Ed Finnell
Sent: Friday, 13 March 2015 9:00 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

ISTM it's not the software but the management of the software that's sorely  
lacking. Seems to be no concept of service levels or availability, Other than 
us yakking about it, it's probably costing them big time in productivity and 
efficiency. But then you'd have to be measuring it to notice.
 
 
In a message dated 3/12/2015 6:00:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
bles...@ofiglobal.com writes:

since  it's almost Friday, how about we get together the best ideas, build it, 
and  sell it (to IBM

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Ed Finnell]

ISTM it's not the software but the management of the software that's sorely 
 lacking. Seems to be
no concept of service levels or availability, Other than us yakking about  
it, it's probably costing them
big time in productivity and efficiency. But then you'd have to be  
measuring it to notice.
 
 
In a message dated 3/12/2015 6:00:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
bles...@ofiglobal.com writes:

since  it's almost Friday, how about we get together the best ideas, build 
it, and  sell it (to IBM

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Lester, Bob]

since it's almost Friday, how about we get together the best ideas, build 
it, and sell it (to IBM?)

...
BobL

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Shane Ginnane
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 4:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server [ EXTERNAL ]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:38:03 -0700, Charles Mills wrote:

>What a sad comment that people have to write shell scripts and use browser 
>plugins to make the z/OS documentation usable.

Perhaps, but at least we (currently) still have the option. I dread the day KC 
becomes the only option - I've tried to like it, but like Tony (I think) said, 
it's a crock.
I do similar to Kirk, but individually wget all the pdfs (scripted) so I can 
moderate the bandwidth usage. Then I scrape together an index page that looks 
like IBMs - familiar surroundings when ploughing through the manuals.

Shane ...

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Shane Ginnane]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:38:03 -0700, Charles Mills wrote:

>What a sad comment that people have to write shell scripts and use browser 
>plugins to make the z/OS documentation usable.

Perhaps, but at least we (currently) still have the option. I dread the day KC 
becomes the only option - I've tried to like it, but like Tony (I think) said, 
it's a crock.
I do similar to Kirk, but individually wget all the pdfs (scripted) so I can 
moderate the bandwidth usage. Then I scrape together an index page that looks 
like IBMs - familiar surroundings when ploughing through the manuals.

Shane ...

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[John McKown]

Being weird, I would like the "source code" from which the HTML or PDF
is produced. Then I'd just format it to suit myself. Ain't gonna
happen, I know.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Tony Harminc  wrote:
> On 12 March 2015 at 14:38, Charles Mills  wrote:
>> What a sad comment that people have to write shell scripts and use browser 
>> plugins to make the z/OS documentation usable.
>
> Like Barbara, I don't want to be a "me too" here. But it seems I'm far
> from the only one who's kept a set of z/OS 1.13 .boo files that I
> continue to use for most things, using the 2.1 PDFs only when I know
> or suspect that there's a significant change, and the Knowledge Center
> almost never. It's not for lack of trying, but the KC reminds me of
> the old VMers' joke about TSO: "it may be slow, but it sure is hard to
> use".
>
> I think this should be a wakeup call for IBM doc; those who really use
> the products have a strong preference for the old methods, and it's
> not due to laziness or that we're old farts who can't move with the
> times. The Knowledge Center is a crock that ill serves IBM and its
> customers.
>
> Tony H.
>
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-- 
He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.

10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Tony Harminc]

On 12 March 2015 at 14:38, Charles Mills  wrote:
> What a sad comment that people have to write shell scripts and use browser 
> plugins to make the z/OS documentation usable.

Like Barbara, I don't want to be a "me too" here. But it seems I'm far
from the only one who's kept a set of z/OS 1.13 .boo files that I
continue to use for most things, using the 2.1 PDFs only when I know
or suspect that there's a significant change, and the Knowledge Center
almost never. It's not for lack of trying, but the KC reminds me of
the old VMers' joke about TSO: "it may be slow, but it sure is hard to
use".

I think this should be a wakeup call for IBM doc; those who really use
the products have a strong preference for the old methods, and it's
not due to laziness or that we're old farts who can't move with the
times. The Knowledge Center is a crock that ill serves IBM and its
customers.

Tony H.

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Charles Mills]

What a sad comment that people have to write shell scripts and use browser 
plugins to make the z/OS documentation usable.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Kirk Wolf
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

I use Linux as my workstation, but the following works well for me.
Similar things would work on other *nixes, windows, etc.

1) I use the "DownThemAll!" FF plugin to easily download all of the PDFs at 
once for a particular z/OS release.
2) I have a shell script that uses the "pdfinfo" command to pick off the PDF 
main title and then creates symlinks using the title as an alternate file name.
This makes it easy to look at a directory and use "find" on part of a file 
name to quickly select one or related pdfs.
Keeping the original file name makes inter-pdf references open by just 
clicking in a PDF viewer.
3) I use the "recoll" indexer to index and allow text searching of my entire 
library.

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Stevet]

Pity that Adobe dropped the Linux environment for Reader. The extended search 
finds all the manuals in a directory... 


Sent from iPhone - small keyboard fat fingers - expect spellinf errots.

> On Mar 12, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Kirk Wolf  wrote:
> 
> I use Linux as my workstation, but the following works well for me.
> Similar things would work on other *nixes, windows, etc.
> 
> 

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Kirk Wolf]

I use Linux as my workstation, but the following works well for me.
Similar things would work on other *nixes, windows, etc.

1) I use the "DownThemAll!" FF plugin to easily download all of the PDFs at
once for a particular z/OS release.
2) I have a shell script that uses the "pdfinfo" command to pick off the
PDF main title and then creates symlinks using the title as an alternate
file name.
This makes it easy to look at a directory and use "find" on part of a
file name to quickly select one or related pdfs.
Keeping the original file name makes inter-pdf references open by just
clicking in a PDF viewer.
3) I use the "recoll" indexer to index and allow text searching of my
entire library.



Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Scott Ford  wrote:

> Also there is a new RedBooks app for the IPAD , if you own one. It's really
> nice
>
> On Thursday, March 12, 2015, Charles Mills  wrote:
>
> > But no longer some of the "peripheral" products such as the new COBOL.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > ] On Behalf Of Gibney, David Allen,Jr
> > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 8:59 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> > Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server
> >
> > The Softcopy Librarian source has a shelf of the 2.1 pdfs
> >
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Scott Ford]

Also there is a new RedBooks app for the IPAD , if you own one. It's really
nice

On Thursday, March 12, 2015, Charles Mills  wrote:

> But no longer some of the "peripheral" products such as the new COBOL.
>
> Charles
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> ] On Behalf Of Gibney, David Allen,Jr
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 8:59 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server
>
> The Softcopy Librarian source has a shelf of the 2.1 pdfs
>
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Charles Mills]

But no longer some of the "peripheral" products such as the new COBOL.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Gibney, David Allen,Jr
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 8:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

The Softcopy Librarian source has a shelf of the 2.1 pdfs 

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Gibney, David Allen,Jr]

The Softcopy Librarian source has a shelf of the 2.1 pdfs 

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On Behalf Of Elardus Engelbrecht
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 3:33 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server
> 
> Barbara Nitz wrote:
> 
> >It is a one-time effort, and I download each pdf manually and sort
> them into the folders I want them in. I also rename them so I know
> what's what. I don't bother with indices. As I said, I usually know
> which book to look into in the first place.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> >I use pubcenter
> >https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www-05.ibm.com/e-
> busi
> >ness/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?CTY%3DDE&k=EWEYHnIvm0nsSxnW5
> y
> >9VIw%3D%3D%0A&r=j6Xa1Y0fbuP2mfgCQ5Zxhg%3D%3D%0A&m=2mLHQqUYbf2F99CQbfwf
> f
> >HMIWdf06Du4flCx56SkCLs%3D%0A&s=1dbf99905edd34f8e8c27b2772bae2c0bd0fd00
> 6
> >42463cc9fa67eeb855f69ee7 and you probably don't want the CTY=DE at the
> >end. (That's just the link I have.)
> 
> Thanks. (I dropped ?CTY=DE) Yet another new webpage with a new title,
> 'IBM Publications Center'.
> 
> Thanks, Barbara, seemed you really mastered the art of tracking and
> using the IBM Web pages. ;)
> 
> >I usually ask for one book in a new release, look at it and at the
> bottom there is "Click here for an overview of all BOFs and/or kits
> that contain this publication." After I have done that, I get a  list
> with a publication number (SK3T-4276-29 for z/OS 1.13) and click on
> that again. Now I get "Click here for an overview of the publications
> that belong to this publication." Voila, all the books belonging to
> z/OS 1.13.
> 
> Hmmm. Interesting. This will be helpful for research.
> 
> Thanks again, you made my day. I have bookmarked this page with your
> compliments.
> 
> Groete / Greetings
> Elardus Engelbrecht
> 
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[van der Grijn, Bart (B)]

I still use IBM's Softcopy Librarian. Latest z/OS v2r1 collection is from 
Feb-2015. The tool will download all the PDFs for you (for the scope it covers) 
and it shows you if you have outdates shelves/books. I use the Softcopy reader 
shelf organizer to access them. A lot easier than managing it manually.
I switched to this from bookmanager years ago. Just don't like the browsing in 
bookmanager. I usually know what manual I want. If not, I'll google it to 
determine what manual it might be in.
I suspect it too will be dropped by IBM in the not too distant future.

Similar to others, I avoid KC whenever I can. It's too slow and I want to be 
100% sure the documentation is going to be available when I need it. 

Bart

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Elardus Engelbrecht
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 6:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

Barbara Nitz wrote:

>It is a one-time effort, and I download each pdf manually and sort them into 
>the folders I want them in. I also rename them so I know what's what. I don't 
>bother with indices. As I said, I usually know which book to look into in the 
>first place.

Ok.

>I use pubcenter 
>http://www-05.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?CTY=DE
>and you probably don't want the CTY=DE at the end. (That's just the link I 
>have.)

Thanks. (I dropped ?CTY=DE) Yet another new webpage with a new title, 'IBM 
Publications Center'.

Thanks, Barbara, seemed you really mastered the art of tracking and using the 
IBM Web pages. ;)

>I usually ask for one book in a new release, look at it and at the bottom 
>there is "Click here for an overview of all BOFs and/or kits that contain this 
>publication." After I have done that, I get a  list with a publication number 
>(SK3T-4276-29 for z/OS 1.13) and click on that again. Now I get "Click here 
>for an overview of the publications that belong to this publication." Voila, 
>all the books belonging to z/OS 1.13.

Hmmm. Interesting. This will be helpful for research.

Thanks again, you made my day. I have bookmarked this page with your 
compliments.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Barbara Nitz wrote:

>It is a one-time effort, and I download each pdf manually and sort them into 
>the folders I want them in. I also rename them so I know what's what. I don't 
>bother with indices. As I said, I usually know which book to look into in the 
>first place.

Ok.

>I use pubcenter 
>http://www-05.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?CTY=DE
>and you probably don't want the CTY=DE at the end. (That's just the link I 
>have.)

Thanks. (I dropped ?CTY=DE) Yet another new webpage with a new title, 'IBM 
Publications Center'.

Thanks, Barbara, seemed you really mastered the art of tracking and using the 
IBM Web pages. ;)

>I usually ask for one book in a new release, look at it and at the bottom 
>there is "Click here for an overview of all BOFs and/or kits that contain this 
>publication." After I have done that, I get a  list with a publication number 
>(SK3T-4276-29 for z/OS 1.13) and click on that again. Now I get "Click here 
>for an overview of the publications that belong to this publication." Voila, 
>all the books belonging to z/OS 1.13.

Hmmm. Interesting. This will be helpful for research.

Thanks again, you made my day. I have bookmarked this page with your 
compliments.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[nitz-...@gmx.net]

> From where and what did you used to d/l the whole set? I must have missed it. 
> Actually I want to d/l the whole 2.1 set and place it somewhere shareable by 
> all.
It is a one-time effort, and I download each pdf manually and sort them into 
the folders I want them in. I also rename them so I know what's what. I don't 
bother with indices. As I said, I usually know which book to look into in the 
first place. 

I use pubcenter 
http://www-05.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?CTY=DE
and you probably don't want the CTY=DE at the end. (That's just the link I 
have.)

I usually ask for one book in a new release, look at it and at the bottom there 
is "Click here for an overview of all BOFs and/or kits that contain this 
publication."
After I have done that, I get a  list with a publication number (SK3T-4276-29 
for z/OS 1.13) and click on that again. Now I get "Click here for an overview 
of the publications that belong to this publication." Voila, all the books 
belonging to z/OS 1.13.

Barbara

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Charles Mills]

Agreed on this also. Prefer PDF to KC except for the most trivial of "quick 
searches" and .boo to PDF for shelf searches. I too do *exactly* what Tom 
describes below. Search the 1.13 .boo's, and then look at the corresponding 2.1 
PDF.

IBM, are you listening? Your customers are speaking loud and clear.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

Not me. I still prefer the .boo. In fact, most of the time, I still use the 
z/OS 1.13 books rather than the current doc unless I'm going to print part of 
it, or unless I know that I need something more current. In that case, I 
sometimes do a search with the 1.13 .boo, then find the corresponding part of 
the current pdf.

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Barbara Nitz wrote:

> I have the full set of 1.13 .boo books on my laptop and use them primarily 
> (it helps that I am still at 1.13 most of the time).

I have .boo and .pdf for 1.13 on z/OS and on shared LAN folders on at least 2 
servers.


> I also have a set of 2.1 .pdfs downloaded on my laptop 

From where and what did you used to d/l the whole set? I must have missed it. 
Actually I want to d/l the whole 2.1 set and place it somewhere shareable by 
all.


>The pdfs take up *a lot* more space on my laptop and are much harder to 
>search. 

That's a PITA. Adobe has an advanced search facility (extra plugin) using 
indexes, but you need to build or d/l the indexes in one or other way.

Pity Lookat has been sunsetted...

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[nitz-...@gmx.net]

> >I would rather download the PDFs,I'm think personally, it's easier more me.
> 
> Not me. I still prefer the .boo. In fact, most of the time, I 
> still use the z/OS 1.13 books rather than the current doc 
> unless I'm going to print part of it, or unless I know that I 
> need something more current. In that case, I sometimes do 
> a search with the 1.13 .boo, then find the corresponding 
> part of the current pdf.

Normally I am not into 'me, too's, but in this I agree. I have the full set of 
1.13 .boo books on my laptop and use them primarily (it helps that I am still 
at 1.13 most of the time). I also have a set of 2.1 .pdfs downloaded on my 
laptop (and will do the same for 2.2), but only use them when I want to see if 
something new replaces what's in the 1.13 books. The pdfs take up *a lot* more 
space on my laptop and are much harder to search. It's a good thing that I 
normally know which book I want to look into, so I don't need indices and such.

I avoid KC whenever I can. No only is it slow, it is awkward to navigate and it 
just 'requires' javascript. Also, it doesn't work at all using a proxy (like 
ixquick) for searching (with javascript turned off). 

Barbara

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:44:53 -0400, Dan Little wrote:

>Bookmanager Read TSO is still my favorite
>, quirks and all.
>
>No waiting.  No fishing around for what website might have some doc.
>
>I am on TSO and my problem is on the mainframe so I look up what I need in
>seconds...one copy for everyone!
>
Not exactly; one copy for everyone*at*your*site*.  And you must refresh
for each update (do you get notifications?)

Others swear by Quick-Ref, if they pay for it.

Has anyone tried using Lobo on z/OS?  Has anyone tried accessing KC with Lobo?
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xamj/files/Lobo%20Browser/

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 18:31:35 -0400, Ed Finnell wrote:

>And if TSO is down?
>
Then you need the publications either not at all or very badly.

-- gil

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Ed Finnell]

And if TSO is down?
 
 
In a message dated 3/11/2015 3:45:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
dwlit...@gmail.com writes:

...one  copy for everyone!


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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
,
on 03/11/2015
   at 04:44 PM, Dan Little  said:

>Bookmanager Read TSO is still my favorite

I prefer to have the bki, bks and boo files on a network file server,
so that I can get to them from a PC even if I'm not logged in to TSO.
But both works for me.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Dan Little]

Bookmanager Read TSO is still my favorite
, quirks and all.

No waiting.  No fishing around for what website might have some doc.

I am on TSO and my problem is on the mainframe so I look up what I need in
seconds...one copy for everyone!

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015, Paul Gilmartin <
000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 19:09:09 -0500, Shane Ginnane wrote:
>
> >Reading Kolosu's latest admonishment to gil, I trundled through the links
> for completeness.
> >The first (knowledgecentre) took minutes to load - yes *minutes*. The
> others just "popped up".
> >
> >Another great technological leap backwards.
> >
> Indeed.  Recently it took me 20 minutes merely to copy-and-paste a line
> each from two different manuals into an RCF concerning a third manual;
> not what I'd want to download two manuals for.  But in retrospect it
> would have been faster.
>
> KC is javascripted to the gills.  It snatches keystrokes, even shortcuts
> and takes unexpected actions, vectoring to a different page or a different
> position on the current page.
>
> The lines I wanted to copy contained anchors.  Usually I can just copy
> the embedding paragraph and edit in the target window.  KC wouldn't
> let me.
>
> I tried to use Firefox "Find-in-page" for which FF supplies a text entry
> box
> at the lower left of the window, but KC pops up a nav bar at bottom of
> the screen, obscuring the text entry box.  Similarly, I can't get to the
> horizontal scroll bar at the bottom.
>
> And I'm using an outdated OS X which provides a window resize handle
> only in the lower right corner.  Same nav bar problem.  I switched to a
> different tab; resized; switched back to KC.
>
> When I follow a link then go back to the parent page, most sites return
> to that page scrolled as I left it; KC always places me at the top of that
> parent, particularly irritating when that parent is a ToC.  I'm learing to
> open any link in a new tab so I can return to the undisturbed parent page
>
> Sheesh!  What about ADA?  How does all this play with an audio or Braille
> reader?  (But it's monochrome, which is accesibility-compliant.)
>
> A challenge to IBM: Provide a script-free, frames-free, popup-free
> ("Classic"?) option for KC.
>
> "Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
> a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
> when you had very little chance of reading a document written on
> another
> computer, another word processor, or another network."
>   -- Tim Berners-Lee in Technology Review, July 1996
> http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/
>
> (Not quite apropos -- I suspect that no browser can deal comfortably with
> KC.)
>
> -- gil
>
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <9655256407995553.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>, on
03/11/2015
   at 11:16 AM, Tom Marchant
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> said:

>Not me. I still prefer the .boo.

Soo do I, but I could live with PDF if IBM would provide bookshelf and
bookindex files, even if I had to write my own application to read
them.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Scott Ford]

Charles,

I agree , I search then if i find the .boo I download the PDF. The searches
are much faster on you local pc for sure..

Regards,
Scott

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015, Charles Mills  wrote:

> Agreed on this also. Prefer PDF to KC except for the most trivial of
> "quick searches" and .boo to PDF for shelf searches. I too do *exactly*
> what Tom describes below. Search the 1.13 .boo's, and then look at the
> corresponding 2.1 PDF.
>
> IBM, are you listening? Your customers are speaking loud and clear.
>
> Charles
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> ] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:16 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server
>
> Not me. I still prefer the .boo. In fact, most of the time, I still use
> the z/OS 1.13 books rather than the current doc unless I'm going to print
> part of it, or unless I know that I need something more current. In that
> case, I sometimes do a search with the 1.13 .boo, then find the
> corresponding part of the current pdf.
>
> --
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 19:09:09 -0500, Shane Ginnane wrote:

>Reading Kolosu's latest admonishment to gil, I trundled through the links for 
>completeness.
>The first (knowledgecentre) took minutes to load - yes *minutes*. The others 
>just "popped up".
>
>Another great technological leap backwards.
> 
Indeed.  Recently it took me 20 minutes merely to copy-and-paste a line
each from two different manuals into an RCF concerning a third manual;
not what I'd want to download two manuals for.  But in retrospect it
would have been faster.

KC is javascripted to the gills.  It snatches keystrokes, even shortcuts
and takes unexpected actions, vectoring to a different page or a different
position on the current page.

The lines I wanted to copy contained anchors.  Usually I can just copy
the embedding paragraph and edit in the target window.  KC wouldn't
let me.

I tried to use Firefox "Find-in-page" for which FF supplies a text entry box
at the lower left of the window, but KC pops up a nav bar at bottom of
the screen, obscuring the text entry box.  Similarly, I can't get to the
horizontal scroll bar at the bottom.

And I'm using an outdated OS X which provides a window resize handle
only in the lower right corner.  Same nav bar problem.  I switched to a
different tab; resized; switched back to KC.

When I follow a link then go back to the parent page, most sites return
to that page scrolled as I left it; KC always places me at the top of that
parent, particularly irritating when that parent is a ToC.  I'm learing to
open any link in a new tab so I can return to the undisturbed parent page

Sheesh!  What about ADA?  How does all this play with an audio or Braille
reader?  (But it's monochrome, which is accesibility-compliant.)

A challenge to IBM: Provide a script-free, frames-free, popup-free
("Classic"?) option for KC.

"Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network."
  -- Tim Berners-Lee in Technology Review, July 1996
http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/

(Not quite apropos -- I suspect that no browser can deal comfortably with KC.)

-- gil

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Tom Marchant]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:24:21 -0400, Scott Ford wrote:

>I would rather download the PDFs,I'm think personally, it's easier more me.

Not me. I still prefer the .boo. In fact, most of the time, I 
still use the z/OS 1.13 books rather than the current doc 
unless I'm going to print part of it, or unless I know that I 
need something more current. In that case, I sometimes do 
a search with the 1.13 .boo, then find the corresponding 
part of the current pdf.

The exceptions to this are the Principles of Operation and
the zArchitecture Reference Summary. I use the 
Reference Summary so often that I have it printed out. I 
didn't yet have the new refsum printed this morning when 
I needed to look something up, so I printed out the one 
that I had downloaded.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Charles Mills]

AMEN!

Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Sam Siegel
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

I'm with you Scott ... I like to have the pdf on local disk.

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Scott Ford  wrote:

> I would rather download the PDFs,I'm think personally, it's easier more me.

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Sam Siegel]

I'm with you Scott ... I like to have the pdf on local disk.

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Scott Ford  wrote:

> I would rather download the PDFs,I'm think personally, it's easier more me.
>
> On Wednesday, March 11, 2015, Staller, Allan 
> wrote:
>
> > The "new tools" are not as available, reliable, or efficient as their
> > predecessors [1].
> >
> > [1] In a bout of frustration I complained to a duty manager about the
> > performance and availability of one of the "new tools".
> > I was informed that it was still the same old green screen application
> w/a
> > GUI front end. It  was the front end that was causing the
> > performance/availability issues, not the "old tool" . Score 1 for the
> > PFCSK's.
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > ] On Behalf Of Shane Ginnane
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:09 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> > Subject: Knowledgecentre versus the library server
> >
> > Reading Kolosu's latest admonishment to gil, I trundled through the links
> > for completeness.
> > The first (knowledgecentre) took minutes to load - yes *minutes*. The
> > others just "popped up".
> >
> > Another great technological leap backwards.
> > 
> >
> > --
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Scott Ford]

I would rather download the PDFs,I'm think personally, it's easier more me.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015, Staller, Allan  wrote:

> The "new tools" are not as available, reliable, or efficient as their
> predecessors [1].
>
> [1] In a bout of frustration I complained to a duty manager about the
> performance and availability of one of the "new tools".
> I was informed that it was still the same old green screen application w/a
> GUI front end. It  was the front end that was causing the
> performance/availability issues, not the "old tool" . Score 1 for the
> PFCSK's.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> ] On Behalf Of Shane Ginnane
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:09 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Knowledgecentre versus the library server
>
> Reading Kolosu's latest admonishment to gil, I trundled through the links
> for completeness.
> The first (knowledgecentre) took minutes to load - yes *minutes*. The
> others just "popped up".
>
> Another great technological leap backwards.
> 
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu  with the message:
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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Staller, Allan]

The "new tools" are not as available, reliable, or efficient as their 
predecessors [1].

[1] In a bout of frustration I complained to a duty manager about the 
performance and availability of one of the "new tools".
I was informed that it was still the same old green screen application w/a GUI 
front end. It  was the front end that was causing the
performance/availability issues, not the "old tool" . Score 1 for the PFCSK's.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Shane Ginnane
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

Reading Kolosu's latest admonishment to gil, I trundled through the links for 
completeness.
The first (knowledgecentre) took minutes to load - yes *minutes*. The others 
just "popped up".

Another great technological leap backwards.


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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Rex Pommier]

Hi Shane,

First of all, I want to make it known that I'm not a fan of the 
knowledgecenter, but that being said I tried your little unofficial experiment. 
 The KC link did come up noticeably slower this morning for me as well, but in 
my case it was a matter of about 5 seconds versus about a second.  So as 
always, YMMV, in my case it wasn't that big of an issue (this time).

Rex

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Re: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

[Charles Mills]

AMEN!

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Shane Ginnane
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 5:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Knowledgecentre versus the library server

Reading Kolosu's latest admonishment to gil, I trundled through the links for 
completeness.
The first (knowledgecentre) took minutes to load - yes *minutes*. The others 
just "popped up".

Another great technological leap backwards.

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