Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
> But that was three years ago, and my memory isn't > as sharp as it once was. Well, unless we are talking about dialog > from Star Trek (The Original Series), or TV and radio commercial > jingles from the 1960s. > Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY roflmao I represent that remark - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
> We are running z/OS 1.5 at two client sites under VM on two separate > z/196's. Admittedly not 1.4, but then again, not much difference > either. Both are in the process of upgrading to z/OS 1.13. The APAR for the z/OS bug was OA30777. No fix was ever created in our code database for z/OS 1.4 or z/OS 1.5. My recollection is that during initial z/OS bringup on the z196 on the hardware test floor, this problem was a pretty solid occurrence IPLing z/OS as SIE Guest-1 (i.e., not under VM). There are TLB-related differences when running as SIE Guest-2 (i.e. under VM), and here may be more frequent TLB purges when running under VM. Some of these things might contribute to making the problem less frequent, or possibly unlikely, under VM. Also, I am thinking that we did not find an actual storage reference which was installing a TLB entry without the common bit for the segments in question, and that we speculated that it may have been due to speculative execution. But that was three years ago, and my memory isn't as sharp as it once was. Well, unless we are talking about dialog from Star Trek (The Original Series), or TV and radio commercial jingles from the 1960s. Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
We are running z/OS 1.5 at two client sites under VM on two separate z/196's. Admittedly not 1.4, but then again, not much difference either. Both are in the process of upgrading to z/OS 1.13. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
On 11/14/2012 3:28 PM, Jim Mulder wrote: Ed - In our environment it didn't work. They said it wouldn't work and for us it didn't. That's all I know. Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU ] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:44 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4 On 11/12/2012 10:13 PM, Andre Massena wrote: Some bits need to be massaged (STCP) but all "old" releases of z/OS and OS/390 for that matter will run under z/VM. They said it would not work. But, we run z/OS 1.4 under z/VM 6.1 on a z10BC. One of the issues with running z/OS 1.4 on a z10 or higher is that the format of the MP Adjustment Factors changed on the z10, and the SRM code to deal with that change was not rolled back to z/OS 1.4. My recollection was that you would see a reoccurring 0C9 abend in SRM. However, depending on how z/VM virtualizes MP Adjustment Factors, this might be kind of issue that can be masked by VM. Or, if you only have one CPU defined to a virtual machine, then the number of MP Adjustment Factors may be zero, in which case the format doesn't matter. We don't test the hardware/software combinations that we don't support. That means: 1. There may be some issues that we know about that will prevent it from working under some circumstances. And under other circumstances, it may be possible to bypass some of these issues. 2. There may be issues that we don't know about that will prevent it from working. When I am asked if an unsupported/untested combination will work, I try to stick to just describing the issues I know about, and avoid stating whether it will or will not work. On the z196, the was a change in TLB implementation that caused a delayed access exception machine check during z/OS IPL when z/OS turned on the common segment bit in in a valid segment table entry. This was a z/OS bug which went all the way back to MVS/XA, but machines prior to the z196 let us get away with it. I don't remember how far back this fix was provided, but almost surely not back to z/OS 1.4. I love those little insights and war stories. Thanks, Jim. Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY -- Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-355-2752 http://www.trainersfriend.com * To get a good Return on your Investment, first make an investment! + Training your people is an excellent investment * Try our tool for calculating your Return On Investment for training dollars at http://www.trainersfriend.com/ROI/roi.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
> Ed - In our environment it didn't work. They said it wouldn't work > and for us it didn't. That's all I know. > > Bob > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > ] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:44 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4 > > On 11/12/2012 10:13 PM, Andre Massena wrote: > > Some bits need to be massaged (STCP) but all "old" releases of z/OS > > and > > OS/390 for that matter will run under z/VM. > > They said it would not work. But, we run z/OS 1.4 under z/VM 6.1 on a z10BC. One of the issues with running z/OS 1.4 on a z10 or higher is that the format of the MP Adjustment Factors changed on the z10, and the SRM code to deal with that change was not rolled back to z/OS 1.4. My recollection was that you would see a reoccurring 0C9 abend in SRM. However, depending on how z/VM virtualizes MP Adjustment Factors, this might be kind of issue that can be masked by VM. Or, if you only have one CPU defined to a virtual machine, then the number of MP Adjustment Factors may be zero, in which case the format doesn't matter. We don't test the hardware/software combinations that we don't support. That means: 1. There may be some issues that we know about that will prevent it from working under some circumstances. And under other circumstances, it may be possible to bypass some of these issues. 2. There may be issues that we don't know about that will prevent it from working. When I am asked if an unsupported/untested combination will work, I try to stick to just describing the issues I know about, and avoid stating whether it will or will not work. On the z196, the was a change in TLB implementation that caused a delayed access exception machine check during z/OS IPL when z/OS turned on the common segment bit in in a valid segment table entry. This was a z/OS bug which went all the way back to MVS/XA, but machines prior to the z196 let us get away with it. I don't remember how far back this fix was provided, but almost surely not back to z/OS 1.4. Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
Ours was PUT0702 + whatever extra PTFs were available. We always do one final maintenance cycle after releases go off support. Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:00 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4 On 11/14/2012 12:52 PM, Bob Shannon wrote: > Ed - In our environment it didn't work. They said it wouldn't work and for us > it didn't. That's all I know. Our z/OS 1.4 z/VM guest is "vanilla", brand new out-of-the-box, completely unserviced without any optional feature downloads applied (e.g., the console restructure). How about yours? -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
On 11/14/2012 12:52 PM, Bob Shannon wrote: Ed - In our environment it didn't work. They said it wouldn't work and for us it didn't. That's all I know. Our z/OS 1.4 z/VM guest is "vanilla", brand new out-of-the-box, completely unserviced without any optional feature downloads applied (e.g., the console restructure). How about yours? -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
Ed - In our environment it didn't work. They said it wouldn't work and for us it didn't. That's all I know. Bob -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:44 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4 On 11/12/2012 10:13 PM, Andre Massena wrote: > Some bits need to be massaged (STCP) but all "old" releases of z/OS > and > OS/390 for that matter will run under z/VM. They said it would not work. But, we run z/OS 1.4 under z/VM 6.1 on a z10BC. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
On 11/12/2012 10:13 PM, Andre Massena wrote: Some bits need to be massaged (STCP) but all "old" releases of z/OS and OS/390 for that matter will run under z/VM. They said it would not work. But, we run z/OS 1.4 under z/VM 6.1 on a z10BC. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
If the DR site is running you under VM (as most do because it allows you to keep your CPUID the same as your production system), then things will work perfectly and you can not worry about anything. If on the other hand you are going to run on some z/196 LPAR directly, then the success will depend on what you are expecting to work. Will it IPL, yes, but many things you may want to do will probably not function simply because the support code just isn't going to be there for you. Things like EREP and RMF will completely fail (which you probably could care less about). Your WLM constructs will probably fail,but WLM itself will still function, but unless you are using some of WLM's extended features, you probably won't care about that either. If you aren't running under VM, the chances of your I/O configuration just happening to match the z/196 is remote anyway, so you will be making some drastic changes just to try to support the HCD requirements (You can't generate a IODF from z/OS 1.4 that will work on a native z/196, but I have ways around that if you "really" need to do it). If you can't guarantee that you will be coming up under VM, then the "safest" bet for you is to migrate to a higher level of z/OS. The cost is minimal and any products that are increased in cost will probably be cancelled out by the ones that are cheaper or free now. I don't know what machine type you are running on now, but it would (probably) be safe for you to migrate to z/OS 1.10 through 1.13 for most of them (including the original z/800). My specialty is helping people do those kinds of migrations and as such I have compiled a huge database of what software will work under what releases of z/OS. For the most part, unless the software you were running on z/OS 1.4 was already out of date when you installed it originally, it will probably continue to function on z/OS 1.10+. You may have some other things that need to be tweaked (i..e JES exits etc.) but chances are that you are fairly vanilla by now to make getting off that mainframe easier anyway and for the most part the conversions of that type of code is seriously simple. You can convert as a project for yourself, or you can have a company like mine do it for an extremely low cost, (or you can have IBM do it for an arm or a leg:)). If you need help doing this on your own, or if you want us to do it for you, please feel free to contact me off list. I have helped close to 100 sites do these kinds of migrations, even the ones that did it themselves as several on the list will be able to verify, and if there are any questions I can answer for you, please feel free to contact me. Brian Westerman Syzygy Incorporated -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
Some bits need to be massaged (STCP) but all "old" releases of z/OS and OS/390 for that matter will run under z/VM. Regards, Andre En réponse à Bob Shannon : > -- Début du message d'origine > > AFAIK the oldest OS that will IPL on a z196 is 1.10. On our > z196 the oldest > IPLable OS is 1.8 (this under VM). (And on a z10 it was 1.6). > On older operating > systems WLM causes a WAIT. If you are on one of the extended > support programs > this may vary slightly, but 1.4 isn't going to work. > > Bob Shannon > Rocket Software > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access > instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO > IBM-MAIN > > --- Fin du message d'origine - www.lavache.com : l'email gratuit sans pub, vachement meuh. www.hugolescargot.com : coloriage, fiches recettes et bricolage, chansons, etc. www.jeux-gratuits.com : des jeux en ligne pour toute la famille. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
Hi Melissa, I am curious, why would you not want to at least maintenance your 1.4 system? Linda Sent from my iPhone On Nov 12, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Melissa Perry wrote: > Would anyone dare try to run z/OS 1.4 on a Z196 machine? We are also in the > 10th year of a 2 year plan to get off of the mainframe. The machine > available for us at DR site is a Z196. I am running 1.4 w/ compatability > mantenance. I REALLY DO NOT dare apply maintenance on the current OS. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
AFAIK the oldest OS that will IPL on a z196 is 1.10. On our z196 the oldest IPLable OS is 1.8 (this under VM). (And on a z10 it was 1.6). On older operating systems WLM causes a WAIT. If you are on one of the extended support programs this may vary slightly, but 1.4 isn't going to work. Bob Shannon Rocket Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
Does the DR site have VM available? Regards, John K Allen Staller of the IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote on 11/12/2012 02:20:40 PM: > It will either work, or fail completely. > > Not supported, but I can't see why it would fail. > > Good luck! > > > Would anyone dare try to run z/OS 1.4 on a Z196 machine? We are > also in the 10th year of a 2 year plan to get off of the mainframe. > The machine available for us at DR site is a Z196. I am running 1.4 > w/ compatability mantenance. I REALLY DO NOT dare apply maintenance > on the current OS. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
On 11/12/12 15:17, Melissa Perry wrote: Would anyone dare try to run z/OS 1.4 on a Z196 machine? We are also in the 10th year of a 2 year plan to get off of the mainframe. The machine available for us at DR site is a Z196. I am running 1.4 w/ compatability mantenance. I REALLY DO NOT dare apply maintenance on the current OS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN WLM will be totally confused, and depending on the age of your ISV software products, there might be problems generating license keys too. -- Mark Jacobs Time Customer Service Tampa, FL The quiet ones are the ones that change the universe... The loud ones only take the credit. Londo Mollari - Babylon 5 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Z196 and z/OS 1.4
It will either work, or fail completely. Not supported, but I can't see why it would fail. Good luck! Would anyone dare try to run z/OS 1.4 on a Z196 machine? We are also in the 10th year of a 2 year plan to get off of the mainframe. The machine available for us at DR site is a Z196. I am running 1.4 w/ compatability mantenance. I REALLY DO NOT dare apply maintenance on the current OS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
