Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
On Wednesday, 12/10/2008 at 09:13 EST, Steve Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you one and all for your suggestions and insights on how to approach this task. In spite of the poor track record of IBM, this case is not their fault. Its being driven strictly from a group who is used to having complete control over all they do. Not being able to do what they want, when they want, how they want is driving them mad!! IMO, this is a misconception by many distributed folks, fostered by poorly chosen words from salespeople and mainframers. They believe that that are no longer in the server business, yet nothing could be further from the truth. What they no longer have is budget and time problem. You and they, working together, can build a growth model that lets you plan for, budget, and purchase the computing power *they* need in a way that saves your company money over time and lets them focus more on their value-add rather than wasting time on procurement. They often are spooked by some overzealous mainframe person who has visions of WORLD DOMINATION and telling everyone else The Right Way to do things. shudder Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
See: http://www.linuxvm.org/present/SHARE110/S9206uc.pdf This was a user who went the other way (AIX-Linux on z). On 12/9/08 2:57 PM, Steve Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having been a technician my entire career I don't posses much knowledge of the intricacies of the budgeting process. Here in short is what I've been tasked with: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX (AIX) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any other 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux.
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:57:11 -0600, Steve Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having been a technician my entire career I don't posses much knowledge of the intricacies of the budgeting process. Here in short is what I've be en tasked with: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX (AIX ) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any othe r 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux. Thanks. In the food for thought category, thank your Admin group for the research they've done into determining the cost and reliability of both AIX and z/Linux. Then ask to see it so you can use it in your analysis. Brian Nielsen
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Steve Mitchell wrote: Having been a technician my entire career I don't posses much knowledge of the intricacies of the budgeting process. Here in short is what I've been tasked with: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX (AIX) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any other 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux. Thanks. Steve Mitchell cheaper = ask for invoices for all the hardware and software. Compare with the invoices for the z/Linux hardware and software. Remember to combine all the AIX systems together for a total cost. One small p and its AIX may well be cheaper than the z. But all of them added together might not be more reliable = ask for all hardware and software outages on the p and AIX and applications. Create a similar report on all z, Linux, and applications. Never accept it is generally know that That is bull. The cynic in me makes me translate their suggestion to We are used to AIX and don't want to bother with this other stuff. I often get that sort of thing for why something cannot be done or is too expensive or too time consuming or ... . IOW: it may be that they are just lazy. I am not saying that for a fact. -- Q: What do theoretical physicists drink beer from? A: Ein Stein. Maranatha! John McKown
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
Contact your IBM z/sales person (I know they are harder to find than hens teeth now days) if you can find a good one they will be able to provide you with many studies on the subject. Maybe the most compelling of all is IBM's green effort. IBM itself expects to save a billion dollars by moving the 'rack' server aps to Z. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:57 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness Having been a technician my entire career I don't posses much knowledge of the intricacies of the budgeting process. Here in short is what I've been tasked with: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX (AIX) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any other 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux. Thanks. Steve Mitchell Sr Systems Software Specialist Blue Cross Blue Shield of Kansas (785) 291-8885 'There are no degrees of Honesty-you're either Honest or you're not! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential, trade secret or privileged information. Any unauthorized review use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited and may be a violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient or a person responsible for delivering this message to an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
Maybe, it depends on IBM sending you a guy with system z smarts and exposure or a P guy. IBM is a two headed beast when it comes to selling virtualization solutions. I've spoken with many an IBMer right up to the executive level about this problem. Put a floor on the System z market and a ceiling on the P solution wouldya please already??? I have had clients put IBM on ice as they get confused with dual messages and competing technologies from the same vendor. Quoting, sort of more or less HP comes in and sells 1 solution ... windows comes in and sells 1 solution ... IBM comes in sells multiple solutions and there is tension between P team and Z team. sometimes IBM guys outsmart themselves thinking if they abandon system z it will automatically go to P series. WRONG. But we can be in denial all we want about P, it's memory is a lot cheaper than system z memory. That is why you must build a strong business case including TCO to have system z work, and then you have to revisit the biz case, all the time. The threat is real. Please, IBM, niche market all you like but stop competing with yourselves in front of the customer. It hurts. Ouch. David Kreuter (in no mood today or ever to be blindsided by P series - again -) From: The IBM z/VM Operating System on behalf of Huegel, Thomas Sent: Tue 12/9/2008 3:41 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: [IBMVM] z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness Contact your IBM z/sales person (I know they are harder to find than hens teeth now days) if you can find a good one they will be able to provide you with many studies on the subject. Maybe the most compelling of all is IBM's green effort. IBM itself expects to save a billion dollars by moving the 'rack' server aps to Z. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:57 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness Having been a technician my entire career I don't posses much knowledge of the intricacies of the budgeting process. Here in short is what I've been tasked with: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX (AIX) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any other 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux. Thanks. Steve Mitchell Sr Systems Software Specialist Blue Cross Blue Shield of Kansas (785) 291-8885 'There are no degrees of Honesty-you're either Honest or you're not! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential, trade secret or privileged information. Any unauthorized review use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited and may be a violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient or a person responsible for delivering this message to an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
On 12/9/2008 at 2:57 PM, Steve Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX (AIX) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. Umm, yeah. Right. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. Figuring out how to charge back for something is _not_ the same as the actual cost to the organization as a whole. I wouldn't go there right now, since the history of mainframes have led them to be dumping grounds for charges that no one could figure out a good place to put them. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any other 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux. Resource sharing, resource sharing, resource sharing. Which leads to software license reductions and people cost reductions (also knows as being able to do more with the same people and money). The big key is to count _all_ the AIX systems: - Production - Failover - Development - Test - QA - DRA - Sysadmin sandboxes WebSphere (and I believe MQ) is licensed by the processor. It doesn't take many processor licenses to pay for an IFL. AIX (System p in general) is great for super-processor-intensive workloads. Because of the architecture, it's not so good with I/O, particularly if you have multiple LPARs running, since it all gets sent through the virtual I/O LPAR. The SHARE presentation that Neale pointed you to mentions that 40% of the CPU usage on AIX was going to do I/O, not actually run the application. That all went away when it was moved to System z. One of my customers is moving all of their SAP workload from AIX to Linux on System z. We're talking about a thousand or more IFLs worth of workload when all is said and done, if they follow through to the end. (I certainly hope they do, but as we all know, things change, and not necessarily because of anything to do with the technology.) I can't speak to the reliability of AIX, particularly if they're running HACMP. I will say without hesitation that System z hardware beats the pants off System p hardware for RAS, and the people who design and build System p say the same thing. I don't know if you have any growing concerns about power, cooling and floorspace, but Linux on System z can save about 80% of each for the same workload. There will always be a place for machines running very fast processors such as System p (and System x and i). But because of the licensing cost structure for a lot of software out there, Linux on System z is capable of tremendous savings by consolidating a lot of workloads. Mark Post
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
Well said, David. Also Mark Post in a later append on this thread. Jim (IBM retiree and 100% mainframe believer) Bohnsack David Kreuter wrote: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_=_NextPart_001_01C95A4D.7058100C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe, it depends on IBM sending you a guy with system z smarts and = exposure or a P guy. IBM is a two headed beast when it comes to selling = virtualization solutions. I've spoken with many an IBMer right up to = the executive level about this problem. Put a floor on the System z = market and a ceiling on the P solution wouldya please already??? =20 I have had clients put IBM on ice as they get confused with dual = messages and competing technologies from the same vendor. Quoting, sort = of more or less HP comes in and sells 1 solution ... windows comes in = and sells 1 solution ... IBM comes in sells multiple solutions and there = is tension between P team and Z team. =20 sometimes IBM guys outsmart themselves thinking if they abandon system z = it will automatically go to P series. WRONG. =20 But we can be in denial all we want about P, it's memory is a lot = cheaper than system z memory. That is why you must build a strong = business case including TCO to have system z work, and then you have to = revisit the biz case, all the time. The threat is real. =20 Please, IBM, niche market all you like but stop competing with = yourselves in front of the customer. It hurts. Ouch. =20 David Kreuter (in no mood today or ever to be blindsided by P series - = again -) =20 From: The IBM z/VM Operating System on behalf of Huegel, Thomas Sent: Tue 12/9/2008 3:41 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: [IBMVM] z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness Contact your IBM z/sales person (I know they are harder to find than = hens teeth now days) if you can find a good one they will be able to = provide you with many studies on the subject. Maybe the most compelling of all is IBM's green effort. IBM itself = expects to save a billion dollars by moving the 'rack' server aps to = Z. =20 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Steve Mitchell Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:57 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness Having been a technician my entire career I don't posses much knowledge = of the intricacies of the budgeting process. Here in short is what I've = been tasked with: The support of our linux guests was moved to the UNIX = (AIX) Admin group last year about this time. They are now suggesting we move = all the linux work to AIX because its 'cheaper' and 'more reliable'. I've found and collected the conversation earlier this year regarding a = 'costing method' for linux guest vs Intel servers, so I have that as a starting point. If anyone has experience with the pros/cons of AIX vs z/VM/LINUX = I would appreciate any information you can share. Aside from that any = other 'food for thought' you can provide is greatly appreciated. Our = environment is essentially WebShpere App server and MQ, accessing DB2 data on z/OS. Yes, we are using Hipersocket connectivity to z/OS from Linux. Thanks. Steve Mitchell Sr Systems Software Specialist Blue Cross Blue Shield of Kansas (785) 291-8885 'There are no degrees of Honesty-you're either Honest or you're not! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message and any attachments are for = the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain proprietary, = confidential, trade secret or privileged information. Any unauthorized = review use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited and may be a = violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient or a person = responsible for delivering this message to an intended recipient, please = contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original = message. --_=_NextPart_001_01C95A4D.7058100C Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable META HTTP-EQUIV=3DContent-Type CONTENT=3Dtext/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1=0A= !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN=0A= HTML=0A= HEAD=0A= =0A= META NAME=3DGenerator CONTENT=3DMS Exchange Server version = 6.5.7235.2=0A= TITLERe: [IBMVM] z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness/TITLE=0A= /HEAD=0A= BODY=0A= DIV id=3DidOWAReplyText99565 dir=3Dltr=0A= DIV dir=3DltrFONT face=3DArial color=3D#00 size=3D2Maybe, it = depends on IBM =0A= sending you a guy with system z smarts and exposure or anbsp;P guy. IBM = is a =0A= two headed beast when it comes to selling virtualization = solutions.nbsp; I've =0A= spoken with many an IBMer right up to the executive level about this =0A= problem.nbsp; Put a floor on the System z market and a ceiling on the = P =0A= solution wouldya please already???/FONT/DIV=0A= DIV dir=3DltrFONT face=3DArial size=3D2/FONTnbsp;/DIV=0A= DIV
Re: z/VM Linux Cost effectiveness
My apologies. I meant Neal Ferguson and wrote Mark Post. I'm sorry. Jim Well said, David. Also Mark Post in a later append on this thread. Jim (IBM retiree and 100% mainframe believer) Bohnsack -- Jim Bohnsack Cornell University (972) 596-6377 home/office (972) 342-5823 cell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
