Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
> Hi, > This looks like nice grade horse. This looks like a American bred mutt. He does not look like a Icelandic or a Gypsy Vanner horse. > Please forward pic off the list to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Am missing many posts. Thanks, Kate AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
On 3/26/07, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Personally, I'm not as offended by people > breeding compatible, nicely conformed, talented horses of different breeds > as I am by people who think it's ok to breed any horse just because the > horse happens to be registered, no matter what problems the registered horse > might have. > > Karen Thomas, NC > an excellent point! Janice yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
On 3/25/07, Stephanie Caldwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I think > that as American's we have a different view of cross breds, because as > long as my mare meets certain criteria she can be accepted into the > Sport Pony mare book and her babies would be 'cross breds' but would > be registerable as long as they pass inspection. > > Is that cross breeding? Or is it bettering the breed because I have a > 'nice' mare? > > I'm not saying I'll breed her because of the health risks to her, > especially with her history of laminitis, this is just theoretical at > this point! > > Steph imo you shouldnt do that unless you have a good buyer lined up to provide a great forever home. But I know thats a perfect world and doesnt exist. sadly, in any horse market. janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
>>> I ring stewarded a local show today... and was approached by a gal who has a smallish WB who wants to cross with some sport ponies. I think that as American's we have a different view of cross breds, because as long as my mare meets certain criteria she can be accepted into the Sport Pony mare book and her babies would be 'cross breds' but would be registerable as long as they pass inspection. ... Is that cross breeding? Or is it bettering the breed because I have a 'nice' mare? Sport Ponies probably can't be considered a breed, but instead a registry. I'm not saying that's bad, just that it's a little different.But, regardless, I bought the QH X Mustang mare, Gracie, as a weanling because I knew her mom, several aunts and uncles, and her grandsire, all on the QH side. I have no idea why her mom's elderly owner decided to breed her, and to a mustang instead of another QH, but he did, and then realized his health wasn't good enough to keep up with a mare and foal. I bought her quickly to get her out of her situation, before he changed his mind - I'd tried to buy her mom before and he wouldn't sell her. Gracie has a lot of characteristics of her mom's family, three correct and lovely gaits for hunter and/or dressage use, so I looked into having her registered as either a Sport Pony or an American Warmblood - she would have had to qualify for either. (I think I remember that she ended up marginally too small at 14.1 1/2 H to qualify for the American Warmbloods, but that was a while ago.) I doubt I would have ever gone through with breeding her anyway, but then she developed the back problems when she was about 6 years old, so that clinched my decision. She recovered from the problem, but we never knew exactly what caused it, other than acupuncture stopped the symptoms. The vets who did the full workup for her back at Va. Tech actually said she was a good candidate to be a breeding mare, but I just couldn't think about breeding her any more. I wouldn't risk her back pain recurring, nor would I want any baby to end up with similar back problems. I never pursued registering her after that, although she has been a nice riding horse again since the acupuncture. She's never been bred, and is the last type of horse I'd ever consider mixing with an Icelandic - she's just way too different to have any clue what might result. If people want to get picky, a lot of horses who've been to the Olympics are "mutts" - some American and some European...but they are some darned valuable and talented mutts. Personally, I'm not as offended by people breeding compatible, nicely conformed, talented horses of different breeds as I am by people who think it's ok to breed any horse just because the horse happens to be registered, no matter what problems the registered horse might have. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
On 3/25/07, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I just think it your name aint justin morgan you dont need to be > trying to start a new breed. I ring stewarded a local show today... and was approached by a gal who has a smallish WB who wants to cross with some sport ponies. I think that as American's we have a different view of cross breds, because as long as my mare meets certain criteria she can be accepted into the Sport Pony mare book and her babies would be 'cross breds' but would be registerable as long as they pass inspection. Is that cross breeding? Or is it bettering the breed because I have a 'nice' mare? I'm not saying I'll breed her because of the health risks to her, especially with her history of laminitis, this is just theoretical at this point! Steph -- "Brutality begins where skill ends." "Correctly understood, work at the lunge line is indispensable for rider and horse from the very beginning through the highest levels." Von Niendorff
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
>> http://iceryder.net/luna.html Not sure what the price is, as he forgot to include it. I'll email Nate to ask. Raven
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
On 3/24/07, Anne Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi, > This looks like nice grade horse. This looks like a American bred mutt. He > does not look like a Icelandic or a Gypsy Vanner horse. > i bet if there was even one other breed horse in iceland it wouldnt be ten years before there would be hundreds and hundreds of icelandic bred mutts. There is a lot wrong with america today, thats for sure, but comparing iceland's horse breeding history and experience to america's? Oh dear. Just look at gaited horses alone. One breed. One tiny country, one training method to produce only one smooth gait, or two, if you want to include the pace which is a speed rack. And all these icelandic culture wannabees on here oh give me a break. I went with an old man who has been breeding for gait and disposition for 60 years to look at his horses today. He has a field full of fillies and when he turned them out they went all which a way just cantering, trotting, and racking and walking and gaiting like crazy. With all his years of experience, and he has been there and done that in every single aspect of gait manipulation as well because he had a major show barn in the sixties. I asked, can you ever look at them and tell what they will do under saddle? and before I even finished the question he was shaking his head vehemently. and said NO MA'AM. Then he said "The last two years I haven't sold one off here and had somebody come back and say it wasn't smooth gaited. But as for guessing when they are young, forget it." Yet Gudmar is on tv this week saying "ALL icelandics tolt." ALL of them. yet gee, hmm, letssee, how many of us have them that don't? I live in gaited horse country and there are a lot of gaited horse experts around here and not one of them would ever tell you "All walking horses walk" or "All racking horses rack" hahahha. Thats a good one, all icelandics tolt.. right. I agree with what was said in principle. I wish people would breed two gaited horses together if they outcross breeds. But to say it looks like an American bred mutt offends me. Makes me feel like saying something rude like when I see a horse acting like a complete nut, I could maybe say "wow, that horse looks like an icelandic bred and trained psycho rehab." janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
> Would really appreciate if someone might send original message, > offering horse for sale. Here it is: http://iceryder.net/luna.html Not sure what the price is, as he forgot to include it. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
>>> Don't see how such a breeding would impact either registered breed, as offspring couldn't be registered/shown. Exactly, and that's why I don't think it's any business of the breed associations. Making a decision to breed ANY horse is a huge responsibility, and I think each breeding should be decided with that in mind. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
>> Let an Americans screw up 2 perfect breeds. Here in the US we have enough screwed up horses! You say this as if Iceland had never bred any "screwed up horses"~! !!! Why are they eating so many of them?? I'm so tired of the "let's bash the americans" crap. Our money is good enough for icelanders, but we are not. BTW...I'm proud to be an American and so is Huginn, my Ice Pony!!<<< I'm jumping in to this thread, as, with computer glitches, I've not received original message about this breeding, nor, I guess other responses...but appreciate Raven's perspective. I'm very enamoured with Gypsy Vanners and Icelandics. would surely consider a cross as a choice for us, assuming sire and dam are sound, have good temperament and have been well cared for...were we younger. Don't see how such a breeding would impact either registered breed, as offspring couldn't be registered/shown. If Icelandic could contribute soft gait and Vanner sturdy conformation...what a great combination for a family/pleasure/trail horse. Would really appreciate if someone might send original message, offering horse for sale. Thanks, Kate Basler Monterey, MA Paddy/Slettir and Pila, Icelandic horses Kokopelli, Hackney pony mule Tess and Bodhi, Irish Water Spaniels Dorje, Snowshoe cat PS, Have no idea who wrote about an American screwing up 2 perfect breeds---so no personal insult intended...no insult intended at all, but is there a perfect breed?. If so, I want one of those :-) We have two lovely, well-bred, registered and well-trained Icelandic horses, but they sure ain't perfect. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
RE: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
My part Icelandic mare is VERY gaited. She was sooo good on the trails, bombproof, would go out alone or with anybody, a horse you could be a passenger on and have fun. That is why I bred her. To get a younger version of her. I bred her to my colt, Andi, now gelded, and the baby, Vinney is a gaiting fool! Then it sounds like you met personal criteria for breeding - breeding a good horse to a good horse, with the expectation of the horse having a good home for life - in this case, your home. >>> I decided to do it after a couple of years of deciding whether to do it or not. Ha, I kept my purebred, registered, super-sensible, eye-candy silver dapple stallion for two years before I decided to breed him to any of my mares. And, I kept my fingers crossed the whole time my mares were pregnant, hoping for well-conformed, healthy, naturally gaited babies. This is just how I see it, but I DO feel that if I have a purebred and registered Icelandic mare, I might as well breed her to a registered stallion. No matter how I feel about judging each horse on its own merits, I know that not everyone shares my opinion, and it's just as risky to the mare's health, and as expensive to breed a foal with a lesser chance of being desirable. However, if I have an exceptional, TRULY EXCPETIONAL cross-bred mare, same applies - if she's compatible with a purebred stallion, maybe I should breed her to him - IF I breed her at all, and that should be a HUGE if - to the stallion that will make the foal the most marketable. And I don't use the word "marketable" in any money-making sense here - I cannot see how anyone can put the necessary health care and nutrition into a pregnant mare and weanling and expect to even break even on a cross-bred foal. When I use the word "marketable" in this sense, I'm talking about foals that stand a good chance of having good homes waiting for them. And I hope it goes without saying that there are always individual animals, purebred, crossbred, equine or other, that should never be bred. (And maybe that applies to humans too!) Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I am personally opposed to breeding gaited horses with non gaited with the exception of breeding for mules.<< My part Icelandic mare is VERY gaited. She was sooo good on the trails, bombproof, would go out alone or with anybody, a horse you could be a passanger on and have fun. That is why I bred her. To get a younger version of her. I bred her to my colt, Andi, now gelded, and the baby, Vinney is a gaiting fool! I decided to do it after a couple of years of deciding whether to do it or not. >> Like endurance people crossing arabs with gait to produce the fiery heart of an arab and smooth gait, what you will most likely get is a maniac that cant gait.<< Well, my 1/2 Arab, 1/2 TWH was not bred for endurance and she is not a maniac, and she has a wonderful gait and a smooth trot that I can post to easily and only come out of the saddle less than an inch, it is so smooth. Like I said, it IS a crap shoot. At our local auction, the meat horses are all quarter horses, some with impeccable pedigrees, so it is a problem with every breed, whether well-bred pure breds or grade horses (mutts). Susan in NV Happy High Desert Trails Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
> Susan in NV (who has 2 part Icelandics) I am personally opposed to breeding gaited horses with non gaited with the exception of breeding for mules. Thats just how I feel. I have seen many many horses go for peanuts at auction that are half non gaited and half gaited, it just makes the worst of both!. Unless you are breeding for non gaited of course. But if you have a gaited horse and breed to nongaited then you will most likely end up with a horse that is tormented all its life with devices to produce gait, and tht is morally reprehensible. But I have seen too many slamming around on a pacey or hard trotting horse wearing a tie down, shanked bit, all that, and say it is half walker and they bought it, or produced it, because they thought it would make a QH with a smoother gait. Like endurance people crossing arabs with gait to produce the fiery heart of an arab and smooth gait, what you will most likely get is a maniac that cant gait. Personally I am a breed purist. I think for hybrid vigor you should go for different bloodlines within a breed. True, the gene pool is small with icelandics tho... but I own McCurdys and their gene pool is small also. Only about 600 in the world last I checked. And one of mine is a result of an accidental breeding so that his grandparents are the same on both sides. And he has some weird glitches! He has reactions to shots, and when gelded it was discovered he had an abnormality. He also has a weird intestinal flora thing where he has to regularly have probiotics. But he also has an uncanny natural calm and sweetness. My husband has been trail riding him three years now and he has never been taught to whoa :) I know thats hard to believe but it is true! Ask Liz Graves! But my other mccurdy is half, and he has too much vigor actually. But both are from well gaited parents and both gait exceptionally well. Interestingly my icelandic had abnormalities that showed up when gelded and recently I think Judy posted something about how inbreeding first shows up in certain areas, one of them in the reproduction parts. If your breeding program is to produce non gaited offspring that will go for around 100-200 at auction to a farm in alabama where the owners have no teeth or indoor plumbing or money for hay, then go for it! Has anyone here been to an auction lately?? In my area registered AQHA colts that are the offspring of sire and dam out of WGC lines are going for 100 bucks. Pureblood arabian and paso fino yearlings out of top bloodlines, 1-300. The highest maybe 600 for one that is broke to ride and behaves in the auction ring and isnt starved. You can buy registered gaited horses with WGC granparents on any dirt lot for less than 500. We need to take responsibility here, HELOO breeders get a GRIP. Registered horses are getting hard to place in good homes. Grade horses are getting neglected, starved and abused. Please please PLEASE think what you are doing when you breed! If you long for the mommy experience breed chickens and eat them like I do! Right now it is popular for people to purchase mutts out of registered parents of different breeds. Labradoodles, peke a poos, yorkie poos go for 200-300 and up. But I got my Ruby from a giveaway cage at the feed store. She is half registered sheltie and half registered Jack Russell. Out of the four puppies she is the only one that found a home. I just think it your name aint justin morgan you dont need to be trying to start a new breed. Janice yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
point taken on the other side but I still don't like it! Mix breeding doesn't always mean healthier...if that were true than hip dysplasia wouldn't be showing up more and more in mixed breeds of dogs under the myth that mixing makes for a stronger, longer lived dog. I didn't mean to assume these people don't know what they are doing ( one being a vet tech and one being a nice guy isn't enough for me to go on though) but generally i don't think people do. If I did breed (which I won't because I don't feel the world needs more babies) I'd keep my Missour Foxtrotter close to the vest (ok Maybe TWH would be ok). Not Foxtrotter/Icelandics , Fox Trotter/Vanner or whatever. And I'd be talking to alot of more knowledgable people than I am about breeding my mare. Just my opinion though and didn't mean to sound fascist at all! :)
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
You know what Anne.the more and more I think about your rude post, the more I get pissed. I went back to looked at Nate's little mare, she's a doll!She does have leg feathers and she's nicely put together. Give me a stocky ice pony or iceX any day, over the new fangled refined icelandic horses. So many of the "new" icelandic horses remind me of skinny, narrow built PFs. AND...Nate stated that his mare does a smooth run walk (pleasure gait). If the Icelanders don't screw up any icelandic horses, you tell me why Huginn (bred by an icelander) is not perfectly set into the tolt? Why TROT is his gait of choiceHum...must be cuzme an American screw him up?! Not. This mare was started by Dana, and Dana is a fabulous NATURAL trainer, so...this mare was started right! And Nate followed up with his own riding. Nate is a very compassionate humane young man, and he loves animals. I have no idea what country you live in, but if you're in the USA, maybe you should think about relocating to Iceland, since we Americansonly screw things up. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn, the American Ice Pony ~ Dixie Chic, the Barn Goddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
>> Let an Americans screw up 2 perfect breeds. Here in the US we have enough screwed up horses! You say this as if Iceland had never bred any "screwed up horses"~! !!! Why are they eating so many of them?? I'm so tired of the "let's bash the americans" crap. Our money is good enough for icelanders, but we are not. BTW...I'm proud to be an American and so is Huginn, my Ice Pony!! Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn, the American Ice Pony ~!! Dixie Chic, the Barn Goddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
--- Dee Dreslough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>I feel the other side of this issue needs representation and it hasn't yet appeared on the board. I felt compelled to speak up.<< HOORAY for you, Dee!! Actually, this topic has come up before, and many on this list agree with you. A cross-bred horse can in no way hurt the original breed, because they can not be registered. And you are absolutely right - cross-bred vigor can not be ignored. Another reason people might be cross-breeding Icelandics with the heavier, small breeds like the Gypsy Vanner and the Haflinger could be because the so called "purists" breeding for show are refining the Icelandic so they look like a Hackney with small boned legs and narrow chests. I think it is THEM that is hurting the breed. Susan in NV (who has 2 part Icelandics) Happy High Desert Trails Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
> http://iceryder.net/luna.html > > This horse belongs to the Vet Tech at my Vet's office. Nate is a > really nice young man. And Dana is in my saddle club...she does a > nice job at startings young horses and is a good trained > This looks like a American bred mutt. Hey..I'm an American Bred Mutt, and I'm totally hawt. :) We think these 2 breeds should the way they bred many yrs ago.<<< You are entitled to your opinion...as am I. I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want to do re: breeding so long as no one (especially the horse) is hurt by it. I don't see any legs falling off on that animal. Hybrid vigor is an important component in animal breeding for commercial purposes. I don't see why hybrid vigor can't benefit end-use pleasure horses to live happier, healthier lives. If someone continues to breed their cross-bred horse, I don't see the harm there either. If they have something special, and they are willing to care for the offspring, more power to 'em. All breeds began because someone decided to cross breed preexisting animals for desired traits. Maybe the "Vannlandic" is the new Morgan, or Quarter Horse! Let an Americans screw up 2 perfect breeds. Here in the US we have enough screwed up horses!<<< Honestly, I don't think screwed-up horses occur because of breeding in the majority of cases. I think it's handling that usually messes things up. And I see nothing 'Screwed Up' about that horse, unless it's hiding its tentacles on the other side, or directly after that photo was taken, it then flung the rider to the ground and devoured her, sprouted wings and proceeded to stomp Tokyo. (Actually, if it has the wings...let me know...I'll buy it!) I personally don't care what breed a horse is -- I want a horse with good health, a friendly temperament, a cool head, and willingness to learn. That's a beautiful horse to me. So, the market for mixed horses exists, especially when they're raised with careful handling, as this one seems to have been. For me, good general health and conformation + good training/behavior = worth more money than any particular breed. But, my goal is to have a safe happy horse to ride, not for breeding. Different goals lead to different values placed on the same animal. I do not see one goal as any more 'worthy' than another. I know I am going be flame at what I mention here.<<< Yes, I must admit, in my opinion, this letter is just a triple slap: at Americans twice and then mixed-lineage horses and their breeders. I'm responding with humor as well as an attempt to make a constructive conversation, but I am upset by this letter, and the letter following that supported your assertions and implied that there is something wrong with finding a good stud and having a mixed breed baby once a year to sell, or for any reason. I would not even have replied, but I feel the other side of this issue needs representation and it hasn't yet appeared on the board. I felt compelled to speak up. I am not speaking out of any personal defensiveness as a "Horse Lovin' Backyard Breeder" or a Vanner/Icelandic Cross owner; I am a disturbed outside observer for the most part here. I don't own a horse yet, or have anything to do with Vanners or Icelandics directly beyond being interested in Icelandics when my horse-buying time comes, but I am an American. I am hurt by your letter. I hope in the future, you will consider your words with more compassion for those who will read them. Sincerely, Dee, The American Mutt.
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
I agree with you anne...but you're never going to stop the "horse lovin' backyard breeder". I have a few neighbors here in NC... not the most educated horse people but they ride and they love their horses and if they can find a "good stud" for one of their mares... they'll have one baby a year to sell for some extra cash... it's just the way it is. Bia
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
Raven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Info on a Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Horse cross for sale: http://iceryder.net/luna.html This horse belongs to the Vet Tech at my Vet's office. Nate is a really nice young man. And Dana is in my saddle club...she does a nice job at startings young horses and is a good trained Hi, This looks like nice grade horse. This looks like a American bred mutt. He does not look like a Icelandic or a Gypsy Vanner horse. All our Icelandics have feathers on their legs, some have more feathers and some have little bit. We love the Icelandics and the Gypsy Vanner horses just the way they are meant to be. We think these 2 breeds should the way they bred many yrs ago. Let an Americans screw up 2 perfect breeds. Here in the US we have enough screwed up horses! I know I am going be flame at what I mention here. Anne - Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
Re: [IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
>> Info on a Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Horse cross for sale: http://iceryder.net/luna.html This horse belongs to the Vet Tech at my Vet's office. Nate is a really nice young man. And Dana is in my saddle club...she does a nice job at startings young horses and is a good trainer. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn, the American Ice Pony Dixie Chic, the Barn Goddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
[IceHorses] Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Cross For Sale
Info on a Gypsy Vanner / Icelandic Horse cross for sale: http://iceryder.net/luna.html Not sure what the price is, as he forgot to include it. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
