[IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
as the motion of the horse is like centrifugal force that will tend to move us out of it. Robyn Does it then follow that to oppose that centrifugal force requires increased weight on the inside seat bone. Sylvia Loch says so in The classical Seat (only arrived today). I made my little cardboard model and discovered the horses centre of gravity is inside the centreline when bent.( A crescent shaped piece of cardboard balances on the inside of it's centreline.) Mary Wanless in the Natural Rider states that the horse leans inward slightly on the bend and so must the rider. That doesn't mean collapsing the torso on that side but supporting it. Both seatbones stay in contact in a fencing stance. Obviously none of these things are to be overdone. It is all subjective and if done correctly probably doesn't feel like leaning in or weighting the inside seat bone. I remember the famous Doc councilman asking swimmers if they pull underwater with straight or bent arm. !00% said straight. 100% had a 90' bend on video. Until we have evidence like that we can only make educated guesses. I knew a swimmimg teacher who used a harness to hold the swimmer up on a hoist in the water. I used to wish I could hire one for riding. It would make falling off less painful.LOL. Then one day I realised I already had one it was called 'gravity'. There have been several moments when it felt like God was holding me up by a string that went through my head down to my heels. The lightness was fantastic. Then there were the times he was too busy to help. Boy was I heavy as I hit the ground! Also someone (sorry I deleted the post) asked about the weight on the inside seat bone on a turn. As I understand it, by putting your weight to the inside the horse has to catch-up to follow your weight so they lean into the turn and the inside shoulder drops. (Some one who is better at this, please chime in!) I'm no better at this but I know that's exactly what would happen if I was running in a circle. The Article that started this discussion said that the opposite happens. The horse pushes the shoulder up to counteract the weight and the head turns ouside the circle. Did I read it wrong? I was taught to keep my weight centered, but move my outside hip bone away from the horse making room for the ribs to arc out. (Think off your hip as being a drawer that you can pull out.) I find it really helpful to get down on all fours and try these things out, have some one play rider and shift their weight and see how it effects you. Kat So have you read Mary Wanless book Ride With Your mind Essentials? There are lots of exercises like that. Sylvia loch does a lot of rider walking through dressage exercise. I like the drawer analogy to allow the horse to bend through the ribs. I will add that one to my tool box. The following is only my opinion; If I keep my weight centred by feel it must be centred over the horses centre of gravity. There is centrifugal force to which we have to apply an equal and opposite centripedal force. The vector for that will cause a slight lean inwards by horse and rider(one unit). When the forces are balanced it feels centred despite the lean. Too much or too little lean will unbalance the horse. My opinion isn't worth much as I am only learning! Sue Coombes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
On Apr 16, 2008, at 9:43 AM, Susan Coombes wrote: My opinion isn't worth much as I am only learning! So are we all! Sounds to me like you have given this a lot more thought than most folks, me included! Kat
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
not something you 'stay' in but rather are always finding it and re finding because of the motion of the horse. Robyn How can we use this idea to help our horses find and stay in the desired gait? Can we put ourselves in what becomes the sweet spot for what we want? Kat
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot for Gait
not something you 'stay' in but rather are always finding it and re finding because of the motion of the horse. How can we use this idea to help our horses find and stay in the desired gait? Can we put ourselves in what becomes the sweet spot for what we want? Oh, Kat, this is a good one!! Yes! This should be a good, productive discussion. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
[IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
not something you 'stay' in but rather are always finding it and re finding because of the motion of the horse. Robyn If We were doing a turn would I be finding it on my inside seat bone? It seams logical to me that would be the new requested centre of gravity. If I want Corrie to turn I use my inside seat bone slightly forward and she hasn't complained. My riding instructress says to use weight in the outside seat bone. I am confused. How can we use this idea to help our horses find and stay in the desired gait? Can we put ourselves in what becomes the sweet spot for what we want? Kat Yes, it has occurred to me that if a horse is moving it's legs and limb girdles the sweet spot is moving in a particular pattern for each gait. It sounds like a kind of dancing partership. Maybe in time it's a matter of learning the dance movement that harmonises with that gait. Will the horse stay long enough in gait for me to learn it? I suspect it will be a long process of 'found it' and 'oops, lost it' learning. It would be good to get an equisimilator that doesn't go out of gait wnen I 'lose it'. But then where would be the fun. Sue Coombes
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
Hi Kat, How can we use this idea to help our horses find and stay in the desired gait? Can we put ourselves in what becomes the sweet spot for what we want? You can definitely help your horse with the use of concepts like neutral pelvis but you can't 'stay' in one place or you become really stiff and then the horse becomes stiff. It is about constantly - refinding neutral as the motion of the horse is like centrifugal force that will tend to move us out of it. Peggy Cummings says 'find it, feel it, let it go' so you stop trying so hard. She might have some description of neutral pelvis on her website - www.connectedriding.com Robyn
Re: [IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
You can definitely help your horse with the use of concepts like neutral pelvis but you can't 'stay' in one place or you become really stiff and then the horse becomes stiff. It is about constantly - refinding neutral as the motion of the horse is like centrifugal force that will tend to move us out of it. Robyn Sorry, I didn't mean to say that the rider would sit still in one spot. I'm not sure what word I would substitute, as spot does tend to imply a fixed place, which isn't what Mr. Black is talking about at all. It is dynamic, more like the sweet spot of a surfer on a wave then the sweet spot on a tennis racket. I think this is what some people call following a feel, or getting with the horse. The next step, I think, is you offering a feel for the horse to follow. In dance terms, as was mentioned in an earlier post, you would be leading instead of following. My idea is first you find the sweet spot for where the horse is and let them feel you moving with them, then gradually change your movements. The horse is going to want that good feel again and will try to follow you. (Now, I'm not saying I can do this. I'm about at the point where I can, say, slightly tighten my body as a foot is coming off the ground to slow that foot down. Sometimes, LOL) I think this is the way great riders like Liz can get big improvements in gait when you can't see them doing much of anything. First time I ever saw it was at a Ray Hunt clinic about 10 years ago -- at the time it was magic. Also someone (sorry I deleted the post) asked about the weight on the inside seat bone on a turn. As I understand it, by putting your weight to the inside the horse has to catch-up to follow your weight so they lean into the turn and the inside shoulder drops. (Some one who is better at this, please chime in!) I was taught to keep my weight centered, but move my outside hip bone away from the horse making room for the ribs to arc out. (Think off your hip as being a drawer that you can pull out.) I find it really helpful to get down on all fours and try these things out, have some one play rider and shift their weight and see how it effects you. Kat
[IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
http://eclectic-horseman.com/content/view/65/33/ I read this, printed it, reread it. Its going to take some digesting. So this sweet spot moves. I get that bit. I could make a cardboard model of a horse in different parts of the gait to demonstrate this. Its going to move in different dimensions. I get that bit too. Then we get to the practical application; 'When tuning a horse,having the riders weight inside the centre of gravity will cause the horses head to move outside the centre of gravity and raise the shoulder up to counterbalance the riders weight pushing the shoulder down' No I don't get it. 'When the rider is outside the centre of gravity, the horse can maintain his head position lower and to the inside the way they have practiced since the time they first got up and nursed.' So how does this translate to where my seatbone should be putting the weight. I thought I had to put the inside seatbone slightly forward but does the weight then go more to the outside seat bone. I am really confused. I know that If I give up the reins and just use seat bones I can steer Corrie so I guess she knows the answer. Can someone please explain this as it seams quite important? Sue UK
RE: [IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
Hi Susan So this sweet spot moves. I get that bit. That is why there is a difference between center of mass and center of gravity. Just scanned through the article as I got home late last night and am leaving this morning. The concept and function of Peggy Cummings 'neutral pelvis' keeps people finding that place - it is about staying out of the way of the horse by being live weight instead of dead weight. It is not something you 'stay' in but rather are always finding it and re finding because of the motion of the horse. Robyn
[IceHorses] Re: Finding the Sweet Spot
http://eclectic-horseman.com/content/view/65/33/ The whole website is very interesting Sue Coombes UK
