Re: [IceHorses] treats
I personally don't like the variation of clicker training that varies giving of the reward for the correct behavior because of this sentiment. Can you clarify? I'm not sure what you mean by varies the giving of the reward. Can you give an example of what you're talking about? I thought a lot of clicker trainers gradually wean the horses off the treats, and instead substitute a scratch, a rub, a word of praise instead of a treat? And doesn't Alexandra Kurland teach that, to get the desired behavior for longer periods, that you delay the click? Personally, I always liked Robyn Hood's (I think? or Christine's?) idea of becoming the slot machine, not the vending machine, so that the horse is happy to win the treats, rather than coming to expect them as a paycheck for everything he does. Of course, I don't do a lot of clicker training either, only for specific horses for specific reasons. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] treats
On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 04:26:54AM -0800, Nancy Sturm wrote: Would it be OK to be consistently inconsistent? I had a trainer friend in the old days who used the consistantly inconsistant method because she said when they went to shows, she couldn't guarantee consistancy and they did better when they got used to it. She trained the national champion Appaollsa trail horse, so her method seemed not to ruin her horse. this is also the reward schedule that works best on rats; it's a standby of undergraduate psychology labs :) I use the complete other method, assuming that all horses are autistic and need structure and routine in their lives. I feed by the clock. It makes life easier in some ways because they become so habituated to the schedule that they never have to be caught. They're waiting at the gait at exactly 4:00. this is probably beter for their digestion, though i am not sure it is better for their minds -- horses didn't evolve being fed by-the-clock. we feed free-choice hay (stjarni doesn't get grain to speak of at all), and stjarni comes to see me 90% of the time i appear rather than having to be caught. (he won't get up from a nap in the sun, but will allow me to go to him and lie down alongside :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] treats
- Original Message - From: Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [IceHorses] treats I personally don't like the variation of clicker training that varies giving of the reward for the correct behavior because of this sentiment. Can you clarify? I'm not sure what you mean by varies the giving of the reward. My Clicker Training book is currently on loan (and I'm thinking I'll NEVER get it back at this point and it's time to buy another copy -- G) and I can't think of the term I'm speaking of. Oh well -- maybe Trish or Judy can help here??? Anyway, as I understand it, there's a group or theory within clicker trainers that think it beneficial not to reward the horse EVERY time he gets the right answer when training and establishing a new behavior.I think Alexandra mentions this in her book. It's different than weaning the horse off of the treats once a desired behavior is learned, ingrained, and habit, or making the horse hold a behavior (such as staying in a certain gait, or holding a foot up) longer and longer before treating. I have always felt the sporadic treating method is unfairly bending the rules as they've been established with the horse, during that first stage of targeting in clicker training.Just my own opinion.Obviously, there's got to be some merit behind it or people wouldn't do it. . .if nothing else, it saves on treats I guess. : ) -- Renee M. in Michigan
RE: [IceHorses] treats
I personally don't like the variation of clicker training that varies giving of the reward for the correct behavior because of this sentiment. Can you clarify? I'm not sure what you mean by varies the giving of the reward. as I understand it, there's a group or theory within clicker trainers that think it beneficial not to reward the horse EVERY time he gets the right answer when training and establishing a new behavior. If you're talking about a variable rate of reinforcement, that is when once an animal knows a behavior pretty well, you vary the number of times they have to do the behavior before clicking and rewarding. Maybe one time you ask for a behavior and click and treat, next, you may not reward until the second one, then you might reward three in a row. It's very much like people playing a slot machine. If you got something every time, it would be boring. We noticed with the killer whales, if you whistled and rewarded every ball jump (where they jump out of the water and touch a suspended ball hanging over the pool) the whales would gradually get lazy- knowing they would get paid no matter what, jump with less enthusiasm, sometimes not touching the ball at all. If they got a variable reinforcement, they always did their best thinking this might be the one! They did get reinforced much more than not. Once you click though, you should always reward. I would not vary the rate of reinforcement until the animal knows the behavior. When first learning the parts of a behavior the reinforcement should be very high and only withheld to move to the next level (in tiny increments). Cherie No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8 - Release Date: 3/20/2008 12:00 AM
Re: [IceHorses] treats
--- Renee Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have always felt the sporadic treating method is unfairly bending the rules as they've been established with the horse, I agree, Renee. A click promises a treat. Now I can withhold the click, but never the treat once the click has been made. That is MY contract with the horse. And I want to maintain the trust I worked so hard to get!!! Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [IceHorses] treats
Would it be OK to be consistently inconsistent? I had a trainer friend in the old days who used the consistantly inconsistant method because she said when they went to shows, she couldn't guarantee consistancy and they did better when they got used to it. She trained the national champion Appaollsa trail horse, so her method seemed not to ruin her horse. I use the complete other method, assuming that all horses are autistic and need structure and routine in their lives. I feed by the clock. It makes life easier in some ways because they become so habituated to the schedule that they never have to be caught. They're waiting at the gait at exactly 4:00. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] treats
On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use the complete other method, assuming that all horses are autistic and need structure and routine in their lives. I feed by the clock. It makes life easier in some ways because they become so habituated to the schedule that they never have to be caught. They're waiting at the gait at exactly 4:00. I like to be consistent, I go down to the barn 8:00am and 8:00pm, and it's amazing how many times the horses are consistently inconsistent, by not showing up at the barn sometimes at feeding times. Of course, it's usually when there is grass growing. If they aren't at the barn at feeding time in the winter, I'm sure that they have either escaped or are mortally wounded. If it's pm and night I'm frantically running thru the woods yelling their names. They usually come running, but if they are way out in the pasture and it's windy they may not hear me. Sometimes I think they just like to yank my chain. I try to keep enough hay out (even when grass is growing) so they are never 'hungry'. Probably not such a big deal to be consistent now with my hard keeper gone. He got several pounds of food at meal time and I didn't want to stress his system by letting him go too long between meals. Now I keep the same routine more for me than them. I've done it for more than 8 years now and old habits are hard to break. -- Anna Southern Ohio
Re: [IceHorses] treats
Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use the complete other method, assuming that all horses are autistic and need structure and routine in their lives. I feed by the clock. Well, if I don't feed by the clock, Daisy the Donkey tells the entire neighborhood that I am a horrible mother and am starving her!! Susan in NV http://desertduty.blogspot.com/ Riding for Breast Cancer Awareness Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [IceHorses] treats
Well, if I don't feed by the clock, Daisy the Donkey tells the entire neighborhood that I am a horrible mother and am starving her!! curly brays when he sees me coming, like hurry up!! he did the funniest thing the other day... he did not want me to put bug repellent on him. He knew I could only do it if I got the halter on him so to prevent that he would go down on one knee when I tried to slip the halter on his nose, he would be down so low there was no way for me to do it without getting on MY knees and walk on them after him, which that wasnt gonna happen... i swear he is the smartest little devil! janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] treats
Would it be OK to be consistently inconsistent? From: Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use the complete other method, assuming that all horses are autistic and need structure and routine in their lives. Hah-- Oh Nancy, I do so enjoy your posts! I also strive to be as consistant with my horses as possible. I think horses like to know what to expect and it gives them as sense of security it things are predictable, including and expecially their humans' responses and behavior -- not just about their feeding times. I also think never knowing what may or may not be coming next lends itself to stress in the horse species (no scientific data here, just my own opinion). I also think horses tend to come to rely on and trust their humans the more consistant we can be with them. I personally don't like the variation of clicker training that varies giving of the reward for the correct behavior because of this sentiment. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] treats
Well, if I don't feed by the clock, Daisy the Donkey tells the entire neighborhood that I am a horrible mother and am starving her!! SNORT! The worst are bovines.I grew up on a small beef cattle farm, and for the times we were late with chores -- well, it's a good thing the nearest neighbors were half a mile away. Loved your Death Valley pics by the way!I've never been out west, and I can't wait to take a family adventure out that way when the girls are a bit older. -- Renee M. in Michigan
[IceHorses] treats
I don't normally feed any treat to my horses except apples and carrots. Each noght before I go to bed, I go out with a few cut up apples and 2 carrots for each horse (3 horses, 1 mule). They expect it each night! Well, it was my birthday recently and a non horsey friend came by with a gift. It was a bag of horse treats. The brand is called DUMOUR ...I guess a play on words for Do More but making them sound french??? who knows... Anyway they have molasses and a few vitamins and some other stuff (corn and some grain)... Not anything super great for them, just a sweet treat. THEY LOVE THEM! It's so funny, even I love the way they smell. As soon as they smell them they are wanting them. I bet they'd be great for training treats. Just thought I'd ramble a bit about thm. I'm amazed because they haven't ever seen treats like these before and usually my horses/mule are suspicious of new foods. Must be the molasses Bia
Re: [IceHorses] treats
On 23/03/2008, Bia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't normally feed any treat to my horses except apples and carrots. Each noght before I go to bed, I go out with a few cut up apples and 2 carrots for each horse (3 horses, 1 mule). They expect it each night! Yes, food is important...and consistency...My horses like that they can depend on me to be available at certain times during the day. Well, it was my birthday recently and a non horsey friend came by with a gift. It was a bag of horse treats. Happy Birthday! AND that sounds like an excellent friend. As soon as they smell them they are wanting them. I bet they'd be great for training treats. Any 'barn' jacket I buy now simply must have pockets large enough to keep a good supply of treats. I'm never without them.. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] treats
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, food is important...and consistency...My horses like that they can depend on me to be available at certain times during the day. Would it be OK to be consistently inconsistent? V
RE: [IceHorses] treats
Would it be OK to be consistently inconsistent? That's my preference and I think it works fine. When your routine it TOO predictable, I think the horses fret when it's disrupted. BTW, Bia, Dumor is Tractor Supply's house brand. :) Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1339 - Release Date: 3/22/2008 4:43 PM
Re: [IceHorses] treats
On 23/03/2008, Virginia Tupper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be OK to be consistently inconsistent? V I don't know. Sometimes life happens and I'm late to feed or have to send someone else. I think they always know they'll be looked after no matter what though. They are fairly forgiving. I know I certainly feel guilty I I'm late coming home and can't get out there at the time they expect me. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] treats
Just thought I'd ramble a bit about thm. I'm amazed because they haven't ever seen treats like these before and usually my horses/mule are suspicious of new foods. Must be the molasses Bia I think I am going to buy a bag for myself. Sounds delicious.
