Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
So it is in the interest of the competitive rider to be a 'better rider'. If all judges follow this is another matter! That's the problem, isn't it? We've all seen some horrible riding which is totally ignored. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:08:54 -, you wrote: And FEIF has been doing work on this and yes it does take time getting 17 countries to agree... Bit like herding cats. Seriously though, I think a major part of the problem is that many people just do not see there is a problem. And that includes the FEIF Sports committee, our own Sport leader and Chairman, most of the judges, and many of the sport riders. It's not that people are trying to cover up the poor horsemanship that is certainly present - they just do not recognise it. Therefore, they do not recognise that as an organisation FEIF needs to do something about it. And unfortunately, the way some of the people on this list have acted in the past (from the best of intentions) has alienated some of those best placed to make a difference. Much as we might like to think otherwise, at the end of the day this is just an email list read by few people outside the US, with relatively few members, most of them unable or unwilling to actually participate in national or international matters where their voices would be heard by a larger majority. I still believe the only way to really make a difference to Icelandic horses across the world is from within FEIF. It's all very well saying we should not support the organisation, but it's the worldwide one for Icelandic horses, and we will effect far more horses from inside than if we simply play in our own little patch. It took being off the scene for several years, then attending the WC, for me to truly recognise the problems. That's in spite of reading this list since it was first created in about 1995 by Christophe - and I'm pro-natural methods, bitless/shoeless/treeless etc etc etc. How do we propose to effect all those thousands of people who are dedicated sport riders (and spectators!) who see nothing really wrong with today's riding? Diatribes, bitching, hysterics and patronising comments won't cut much ice with them. We need calm, logical reasoned arguments, and a good case for change made through the proper channels. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
He didn't thank his horse - which I suspect does not understand English or Norwegian. This major poster on the site is happy to criticise a person who she has not met, does not know, and has no idea about how he trains horses or people. So, as a competition rider, after reading that post do I think the rest of the information here is going to be a value? Once again it's all in the presentation John, my posts here aren't always about CHANGING the way things are. Sometimes they are about UNDERSTANDING the way things are, and that's a big difference. The posts simply can't be aimed to be equally effective to the people on this list (who share common values for the most part) as they are for people in other cultures, speaking other languages with whom our values may be quite different. Sure, changing the rules is a big goal when there are abuses involved. But, for a lot of us, it's a HUGE undertaking simply to try to get a grasp on how values can be so different in different countries...or in this case, with so many people who ride Icelandic's competitively. That Stian didn't thank Jarl was just one clue...but that the other guy didn't dismount the horse to check the hoof until he was well outside the arena, and then he smoked, and acted totally unconcerned? And that Eidfaxi didn't bother to name Jarl in that article, but only listed the rider's name? When I think about it, I've never felt so outside of any horse culture as I feel outside the Icelandic horse culture. I such a HUGE divide from my world to theirs that I'm not sure it's worth trying to change. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in the USA, at least not with people like us. The horse always gets named and credited, or it does most of the time. It's about the horse, not about winning, so we're coming at this from hugely different perspectives. If we are debating whether to try to change things or to withdraw from this battle, don't you think that's critical to see how much common ground we have? Did you ever hear the old poker player's saying - you have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. Sometimes, in certain circumstances, we can hold on and try to change things, but other times we have to simply walk away and find a more productive use of our time. I don't know what's right here, but unraveling the cultural differences may give us insight. Gosh, we've gotten so many lectures in the past for not understanding the way things are done in Iceland, or how things are done in Icelandic showing. I think these are huge clues of how dramatically different our values are. We can change rules MAYBE, but we can't change the values of other cultures... I simply don't know how I might present that any differently. It's just what it is. Honestly, I don't aim my posts to be read by competition riders. I think I'd be pretty arrogant to do that. Sometimes it's not just in the presentation...sometimes it's in how it's read. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On 9/20/07, jtafreemanuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the presentation Will anyone ever see that some of their angry, ill informed comments on this forum and repeated on the Eidfaxi site will not actually help the aim of treating the horses in a better way. You can have a good message you can have a great message but its the way you all present it that will make the difference. what would YOU suggest then, that would be effective to help the horses. I think most of us are speaking out and trying in the only way we know to help. Killing the messenger doesnt help. Criticising the people who point out the problem doesn't help. maybe its being done in a wrong way, an ineffective way. Please tell me the way it will work and I will do it... Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
--I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? No, that's not correct. What's accepted in Peruvians is something called termino which is not the same thing as winging. From the pictures I've seen, the action of termino begins at the shoulders, and the whole leg moves in an arc... although I've heard from a chiropractor that unknowing breeders are mistaking termino for winging, so it's showing up in that breed too. I don't know many Peruvians though, so that's definitely secondhand. I don't know much about termino, and don't think I've seen it very often. There is a section clarifying termino in Lee Ziegler's book - there may be better sources for explaining it for all I know, but that's one source that many of us have easy access to. Judy posted a link recently to winging, which has many implications. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date: 9/18/2007 11:53 AM
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
The Peruvian movement known as Termino is not true winging - it comes from the shoulder, not the knee. I've seen a few Icelandics which do exactly the same movement, but not that many, and it isn't winging. Mic --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? And how does winging affect a horse from a long-term health standpoint? Is there a certain conformation feature that makes it less hazardous on the long term health of the horse (if it's hard on the horse)? Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
There's a Peruvian Paso where I board that has been having some serious soundness problems, so he's been on stall rest and thus getting a lot more attention from the rest of us than he might have otherwise. I think his owner would argue that he does not wing as we think of it, but has a distinctive gait. We were standing talking to Fabio over his stall door and noticed that his chest muscles are VERY developed. Looking at him from the side, his chest is probably three or four inches deeper in front of his front legs than it is behind (just in front of where his girth probably lies). He looks like a body builder with pecs. We wondered if this muscle development was a result of the way he moves or was the CAUSE of how he moves. His owner is the sort of person we would all like to sell horses to. She's an older single woman who commutes from her pschyiatric practice in San Francisco to Applegate, where she has her home and horses. She has no pets. Those horses get the best of care. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: What Are They Applauding?!?! conformation questions...
On 9/19/07, dawn_atherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --I know that winging is not considered a fault in the Peruvian Paso breed. Is there a difference in the conformation of Peruvians versus Icelandics that allows for the winging? yes, they wing from a different place, their conformation is such that they wing from the shoulder I think it is, but a definite conformation thing. I have seen them gait and wing and it looks very different I dont know how to describe it. Their whole body frames up differently. I have seen walking horses wing and paddle out in back too, and it looks different. I wish I had the technical knowlege to explain it! All I can say is when peruvians wing they appear to be very collected and their front, in the chest appears to be in a different frame for gaiting than when a walker does it. When a walker does it he seems to do it more from the legs and seems more constrained... again I dont know how to describe. One way to describe... have you seen men, football players, run through a course of rubber tires? How each foot lands in the center of a different tire so they are going along with legs farther out from the hip, not from lower down. Its like that. The winging doesnt come from lower down. And I have never seen one wing that wasnt in a gait where they seemed very elegantly bent at the poll. Also they werent going fast fast like a racker so dont know what gait. Walkers winging were going fast like a racker. Peruvians seem to do it more elegantly. These are my observations. In the icelandic video the winging seems to be too much swaying side to side. a peruvian does not swing side to side like that when winging. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
