RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > especially people who do not know a lot about horses, even > some who do, > will treat foals almost like a big dog, forgetting that those foals > will get > a lot bigger and stronger, very fast, and what you could do safely > at 2 > months old, you can not do at a year old.. > > > How much does a two-month-old foal weigh? 200 pounds, or 300? > More? How > many people are really THAT dumb? I think newborn foals are > probably the > MOST dangerous until they are a few weeks old. They are born with > totally > blank slates, no real awareness of their bodies, but even a newborn > foal can > injure a human pretty quickly.MAYBE I'd stand a better chance > one-on-one > in a wrestling match with a newborn, but one misplaced little hoof > can > easily damage an eye, or inflict a pretty good head injury. > > If a person is stupid enough to play with a foal like it's the size > of our > little pug puppy, then maybe that's just natural selection...of the > humans. > I really believe the intelligence level of this list is a little > above that. > > > Karen Thomas > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen I was not referring to people on this list, but just people in generalas breeders we get a lot of people and their children interested in Icelandics, as we have given lessons hereand I believe that people are intelligent. However people can be ignorant about how to handle foals...and people need and should be taught. People do the strangest things with baby horses. As Farriers we go to so many places, barns, breeders, etc...and they way most people treat their baby horses is not the way I would ever treat mine. Real Life Examples from Real life Horse People (Some of them Professionals) Colt and its 1/2 draft Dam kept in a 12 X 12 stall for 30 days.(owner did noit want the baby to get hurt) On our day of shoeing their we convinced her to let out the foal and its dam.Sally almost got injured by the chaos that insuedThe owner is a Professional who makes her living by giving riding lessons and working with disabled children, and is certified. To this day you can not handle that baby in a safe way.the owner is scarred of it. Filly allowed to come into owners home and eat off the counters... Professional Polo Player Round Penning foals at 60 days for a half hour at a time (Professional trainer who does futurity on the mainland) Parents allowing their children to hand feed foals as much as they want untill the child is pushed over and crying Parents treating a foal like it actually knows what the Dam knows about giving into pressure, and expecting the foal to do the same. Not touching the babies ever ever and expecting the farrier to be able to trim a colts feet a 1 year old. HA! Grabbing and holding down a filly at 6 months to put on a halter. I myself have been kicked by a 3 day old foal here, our first one (it was a Arab Icelandic cross, A Mistake in the fences from the ranch I picked up my first Icelandic from) She kicked me, so I turned my butt to her and kicked out myself, I never had a problem again, I used horse launguage and she could hear it. People do Stupid Things. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
honestly, in the end, the overimprinted horse and the horse never handled have about an equal amount of problems/issues. I say that, Judy says that, nobody listens. They just want to stick their horses in a field and leave them alone so they will be like feral cats instead of home raised kittens. it is mind bogglingly ignernt. and is it spoiling and pampering to ground work a horse? to take them for long walks working on getting them used to things?? thats just nutty. but i know one thing! Taking a horse from a field at age 3-5 and deluging him instantly into a harsh 30 day strict training program gives them life long issues. and that isnt my opinion it is my experience. janice
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Janice, > >>>Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a > horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was > skipped.. > > If you don't have flies and other biting bugs where you live then there may > not be a need for a horse to be fly sprayed. Just different perspective on > what horses need to know. : )) > a good point. but a reminder that I am 57 and Nasi is only 3 and will maybe outlive me. Who know what could happen. I try to think of it as how can i best outfit all my horses to have good homes someday if something happens to me. I have a friend right now, grieving over his horse that died. he is horse looking. People keep calling him to come over and look at their garbage, their horses so horrible they should really be put down and for whatever reason the people havent, one supposedly had a mild hernia and when he got there and looked, a blop of partially digested hay fell out of the "hernia". Can you imagine? He paid 900 dollars for a totally foundered lame horse. He took a free horse that any time when tied would pull back and when the halter broke would fall over backwards, jump up and bolt down the road... doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out where horses like that are gonna end up... jmo--- if we love our horses we need to outfit them to be able to make it whereever they might end up if something happens to us... i think for a long time, for whatever reasons and we could talk about them endlessly, but anyway, icelandics have been a breed where they were rarely on the market cheap, were NEVER rescued or rehabbed. Now it is an everyday ocurrence. Just like other breeds. and the bottom has fallen out of the horse market for all breeds... gosh I saw a horse on dreamhorse a couple of months ago that would sit like a dog while you mounted and dismounted, was dead broke, ridden in parades, trails , had been shown and won ribbons. They wanted 1500 or best offer... its amazing. i would not like to be in the business of selling horses now, or trying to find a good home for one of mine. I would lose sleep over it! Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
especially people who do not know a lot about horses, even some who do, will treat foals almost like a big dog, forgetting that those foals will get a lot bigger and stronger, very fast, and what you could do safely at 2 months old, you can not do at a year old.. How much does a two-month-old foal weigh? 200 pounds, or 300? More? How many people are really THAT dumb? I think newborn foals are probably the MOST dangerous until they are a few weeks old. They are born with totally blank slates, no real awareness of their bodies, but even a newborn foal can injure a human pretty quickly.MAYBE I'd stand a better chance one-on-one in a wrestling match with a newborn, but one misplaced little hoof can easily damage an eye, or inflict a pretty good head injury. If a person is stupid enough to play with a foal like it's the size of our little pug puppy, then maybe that's just natural selection...of the humans. I really believe the intelligence level of this list is a little above that. Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/983 - Release Date: 9/1/2007 4:20 PM
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Kim Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I find that if I politely and > softly push her head away from me, she stops. I let my horses come > close to me and there are some rules, no biting, no kicking, even > at > other horses when I am around, no pushing. They can be taught to > follow the rules, I've been around horses as long as I can remember > > (almost) and I think some of it comes naturally to me. I like being > > close with them, they can be very sweet and at the same time they > follow directions and be safe riding horses. I actually let them > touch me with their noses, they are taught what is appropriate, Perfectly stated! no > biting, four out of five of them never try to bite at this point, 2 > > of them have never even tried it in their lives, each of the other > 3 > has given me at least one good bite each when I first started > working with them, this behavior is natural in certain individuals > and can be extinguished, and I still am able to let them close to > me, and able to let them touch me with their noses, they are very > smart, they get it. A couple of them like to put their heads on my > shoulder and give me a horse hug, I love it. This is wonderful Kim. We love being close to our babies and horses...we let them come to us, and they can touch us, but no biting, nibbling or kicking, even to other horses around when we are therethey learn very quickly. We can be in a Big herd of 20 gaited horses, most of them we have owned at one point or own now or we bred them ourselves, and we are very safe just to sit with them out in a huge pasture...no yelling, no arms waving to send them away, just hanging out with them relaxed..it is s nice and wonderful > > I just wanted to put another perspective out there, it seems like > some people think that either horses are to be kept at a distance > from us, in order to keep them from doing anything dangerous, or if > > we let them close, they will inevitably be out of control, no > boundaries, dangerous for sure. We are getting awfully close to > them > when we are on their backs, you would think that you would want to > trust them completely in any direction, before you go and get on > their backs, if you think about it, being on their backs is a > pretty > precarious position. I don't really think horses are that > dangerous, > if you understand them, make friends with them, and set up a few > rules, they are actually pretty easy to get along with, Icelandics > even more so. > > Kim Wonderfully stated..my mare is one of my best friends who always comes up to me, just because, treats or no treats, she just enjoys being around mewe clicked when we first met. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I agree with that. Proper handling is what I want in my > > foalshowever if I had a choice to purchase a 5 year old with > > improper handling, or one with very little to no handling, I > would > > pick the later..at least I do not have to start off with > > correcting bad habits. > > > Correct. > > However, we should not accept the only alternatives as not being > handled and > being handled poorly. > > We should be on a course to educate owners, breeders, handlers, to > handle > young horses properly, with an eye to helping them become smarter; > why waste > the young years when learning is so easy? > > > Judy I agree. I do think that people have different ideas of proper handlingI might be a little more strict about handling than some people here on the listI like every contact with my foals to be a learning experience.we have our babies on a huge pasture in a herd environment and the herd gets checked on almost weekly, with Sally and I going out there mabye twice a month. Her filly (Who is a stunning Silver Dapple Pinto) is very reserved about humans, so we always let her come to us, never forcing her.we will be taking her and her Dam back home this month so we can have the oppertunnity to get to build more trust with herwe would like to be able to halter train, and lead her.but it will never be a force thing, it will be on her time, we will just make sure we have a lot of oppertunity to spend time with her here at our farm.once we get the haltering and leading down, we will send her back to the big pasture with the herd...the herd can teach them so much in a natural setting..we like to do as much as we can possibly to mimic a natural setting for the babies, but with some human contact, as we will be part of their environment for their whole lives. Lots of petting, treating, well, we have seen that type of contact lead to a very pushy horse, that envades a humans spacethen you need to retrain them so that you can be around them in a safe mannerespecially people who do not know a lot about horses, even some who do, will treat foals almost like a big dog, forgetting that those foals will get a lot bigger and stronger, very fast, and what you could do safely at 2 months old, you can not do at a year old.. Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Janice, > >>>Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a > horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was > skipped.. > > If you don't have flies and other biting bugs where you live then there may > not be a need for a horse to be fly sprayed. Just different perspective on > what horses need to know. : )) Actually I think Janice is talking about TIvar, we do not have much of a fly problem here and I usually just spray some on a brush and brush it in. Sometimes in the fall, there are flies that bother the horses and I sprayed the legs before I rode but do not remember Tivar being jumpy about it. Stella hated to be sprayed and I got her when she was 11 and now she tolerates it but I sure do not remember Tivar being jumpy. He did not like to be hosed off for a bit but overcame that. Ann
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: but i cannot for the life of me comprehend how this > horse got to be ten years old and dances like a nut when you try to > fly spray him. Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a > horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was > skipped.. jmo. I have a mare that was well trained and obedient in most ways, but would have a fit with fly spray. For some reason I thought that maybe the chemicals were bothering her skin. Got some 'natural' sprays and she will stand perfectly still for praying with those.. Pick up the wrong bottle, (still use the stonger stuff on the other horses) and she will run away from it after she realizes that you have the wrong stuff. -- Anna
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Kim Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > That's a good idea, but having seen how much people can mess up
> babies
> > even before they are weaned ("Oh it's just soo cute when he
> > nibbles/kicks/rears up and puts his feet on my shoulders" - yuck)
> it's
> > not infallible.
> >
>
> I don't think this would fall under good horsemanship (ie, "correct"
> handling). I've never had a young one actually try to jump on me,
> does this really happen?
HEY JUDY! Can you re-post that photo of the moron w/ the colt, who's
allowing said colt to not only have its front feet on the juy's
shoulders, but is also biting the guy in the neck at the same time?
Thanks, Robyn S
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Hi Janice, >>>Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was skipped.. If you don't have flies and other biting bugs where you live then there may not be a need for a horse to be fly sprayed. Just different perspective on what horses need to know. : )) Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood & Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
I have my A number one guy, my main horse jas, he was not taken from a pasture til he was three and then abused for 30 days, dragged behind a tractor, lashed in the face for spooking, beaten for being afraid. Then I have my stonewall, orphaned foal, taken into the livingroom to be bottle fed on the italian leather sofa before the fire and allowed to live with the humans like a dog til I got him at age 15 months. Today they are remarkably similar in many ways when it comes to obedience but on the ground one is distant and stoic and the other is a loving puppy. I kiss them both on the lips and if they are galloping directly toward me full blown I can just turn and walk away and not even worry about being run down. being overimprinted has its own complications. Being never handled has its own complications. I know the difference. I kiss my horses on the lips but I also grouch and whack them on the shoulder if they act aggressive and disrespectful. Sometimes I cant help but laugh tho, they can be so funny, but then I have laughed at funerals. thats just me. I also have a horse that is so well trained he will move off the least leg pressure and rides in a sidepull like a dream, responding to every least subtle cue, but i cannot for the life of me comprehend how this horse got to be ten years old and dances like a nut when you try to fly spray him. Any horse that won't be fly sprayed at ten years is a horse that has gaps in ground training and some necessary handling was skipped.. jmo. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On 9/1/07, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> That's a good idea, but having seen how much people can mess up babies
> even before they are weaned ("Oh it's just soo cute when he
> nibbles/kicks/rears up and puts his feet on my shoulders" - yuck) it's
> not infallible.
>
> Mic
>
yes and like my stonewall that was orphaned and overhandled, people
should remember with foals they should be handled like wildlife
rescuers-- treated well and lovingly handled but also bearing in mind
you wont be doing them any favors if you treat them like a human
instead of like their own kind.
Janice
yipie tie yie yo
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Me too. It's easier to start with a clean slate than a horse that someone else has already messed up. There are infinitely many combinations in the middle though, and when we are talking to intelligent, caring horsesmen, there's no reason to limit the discussions to either extreme - as I think Judy clearly pointed out earlier. Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 5:21 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses "The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
Maybe there is no such as thing as "over handling" foals. Could it boil down to correct handling or incorrect handling? Amen! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.1/982 - Release Date: 8/31/2007 5:21 PM
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:35:11 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>And that is exactly why I bought babies! Then I know
>they have been handled correctly, and if I make a
>mistake, it is on me.
That's a good idea, but having seen how much people can mess up babies
even before they are weaned ("Oh it's just soo cute when he
nibbles/kicks/rears up and puts his feet on my shoulders" - yuck) it's
not infallible.
Mic
Mic (Michelle) Rushen
---
Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs:
www.solva-icelandics.co.uk
---
"Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>It's easier to start with a clean slate than a horse that someone else has already messed up.<< And that is exactly why I bought babies! Then I know they have been handled correctly, and if I make a mistake, it is on me. Susan in NV Nevermore Ranch http://users.oasisol.com/nevermore/ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:30:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >.however if I had a choice to purchase a 5 year old with >improper handling, or one with very little to no handling, I would >pick the later..at least I do not have to start off with >correcting bad habits. Me too. It's easier to start with a clean slate than a horse that someone else has already messed up. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
> I agree with that. Proper handling is what I want in my > foalshowever if I had a choice to purchase a 5 year old with > improper handling, or one with very little to no handling, I would > pick the later..at least I do not have to start off with > correcting bad habits. Correct. However, we should not accept the only alternatives as not being handled and being handled poorly. We should be on a course to educate owners, breeders, handlers, to handle young horses properly, with an eye to helping them become smarter; why waste the young years when learning is so easy? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>Could it boil down to correct handling or incorrect handling? > > > YES! > > > That's reasonable. > > I don't think we want to give the public the impression that it's > wrong to > handle foals or that they should be left alone. > > For two reasons, it would be bad: for the humans and for the horse > as it > would deprive him from lots of educational stimulation in his young > years. > > > Judy I agree with that. Proper handling is what I want in my foalshowever if I had a choice to purchase a 5 year old with improper handling, or one with very little to no handling, I would pick the later..at least I do not have to start off with correcting bad habits. I have a 10 year old right now who has had 7 years of improper handling.he was dangerous when he arrived.putting on a halter was a game, and he thought it was ok to push you around, step on you, pull harder...putting on a halter was a game, he would put his head down and then insert the halter in his mouthbut at 3 when he was sold to the owners he knew how to stand for a farrier, be haltered and leadbut 7 years of allowing him to be a lap dog, well, it has taken me 4 months of working with him, and now he is at a professional trainer to start.one of only 2 people here who I would send an Icelandic too. Normally we start our own Icelandics, but he needed special attention with someone with years of experience. Improper handling led him down the road to be a dangerous horse to approach Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
>>Could it boil down to correct handling or incorrect handling? > YES! That's reasonable. I don't think we want to give the public the impression that it's wrong to handle foals or that they should be left alone. For two reasons, it would be bad: for the humans and for the horse as it would deprive him from lots of educational stimulation in his young years. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:40:28 -0700, you wrote: >Could it boil down to correct handling or incorrect handling? YES! Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- "Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes"
Re: Fw: Re: [IceHorses] Horse Training in Iceland / Handling Foals
> This is a perfect example of why not to over handle foals in my > opinion.. Maybe there is no such as thing as "over handling" foals. Could it boil down to correct handling or incorrect handling? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
