RE: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
I understand that our conversations morph quickly, but when I started this subject line, I wasn't talking about cutting horses. That's a whole 'nuther ball of wax, from the way I've heard the warnings against the use of legs on Icelandics. How is it different? If I understand the sport of cutting correctly, it's the goal is to let the horse do the work. The rider is supposed to move with the horse, right, no matter how many zigs and zags the horse makes. The cutting riders also can't use their reins, right? So, what's left for the rider to use? Seat, and balance, right? Do cutting horse trainers advise normal, beginner-type trail/pleasure riders to ride like cutting riders, on non-cutting-trained horses? I don't think so! But, I've heard Icelandic trainers (and their disciples) advice middle-aged American pleasure riders not to use their legs on a given horse. Yep. It's a whole 'nuther ball of wax entirely! Karen Thomas, NC No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1177 - Release Date: 12/7/2007 1:11 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
at a clinic i rode a twhbea wgc (more than once) flatshod horse and as soon as I lifted the reins he took off like a shot , it felt almost like a bolt to me, he was suddenly just running walking at great locomotion around the arena and when i tried to stop him he did a little rabbit hoppy head tossing thing and the clinician and owner of the horse, said in the microphone in front of a crowd of about 200 people why are you squeezing your legs and trying to stop him at the same time and the crowd just roared laughing when i blurted when I squeeze my legs my horse slows down cause he knows I'm about to fall off. so horses pretty much get what you teach them, but then they know how it really is. Like highly trained pilots etc, they kow how to fly, but sometimes they just fly by the seat of their pants. Janice -- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
Anybody ever ride a cutting horse? Yes. I use to own one. Lorraine Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
I had a horse trainer friend who was training a horse, I think for the working cow horse class. Anyway, she needed to rent some calves and asked some of us if we wanted to go in with her. I put a western saddle on my hunter/jumper/dressage horse (an off track Jet Deck grandson). He actually was pretty cowy and it was quite an experience. I can't imagine the kind of balance the rider nneeds to have to ride a real cutting horse. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
i've worked cattle on some fairly cowie horses-but not a high performace show cutting horse. when a good horse gets going-just hang on-it is like nothing you've ever felt. love working cattle on a good horse... Maggie the California cowgirl-i hope Solie likes cows:)
RE: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
--- Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If any of you have ridden reining horses you will have experienced the most leg quick trigger than I have ever felt on a horse. Robyn Our friend bought very expensive well trained QH reining horses. Sally rode one once, and she is a good rider, but the horse was wy too sensitive for even her. and she likes the very forward goey sensitive Icelandics. She felt liked if she took a big breathe that the horse would have taken off at a gallop. Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
RE: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
Now with some western trained horses, like barrel racers etc...well there is a lot of leg contact, a lot of go go go.kick kick kick. The girl I bought Scooter from use to barrel race him. I wonder if that is why he bolts sometimes. Lorraine Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
RE: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
Hi Skye I know that of the Icelandics that we have, that were trained in Iceland, or by an Icelandic trainer, that while riding our leg is relaxed, yet we can give cues with our legs, for sidepass and such. We have always used legs on our Icelandics from Iceland but definitely there is a higher level of sensitivity in some of them than others. I think a big part of the problem is that most of the male riders have such long legs, and ride with long stirrups that their calf cannot easily go around the barrel of most Icelandics. We found that we would get the horses used to legs by riding them bareback. Mandy used to ride the horses in from the pasture bareback, she would kind of 'test' them to see how they would be. Now with some western trained horses, like barrel racers etc...well there is a lot of leg contact, a lot of go go go.kick kick kick. I have certainly seen people do this - get on and think they have to kick to get the horse to go forward. The other thing is that many people, especially trainers, ride with spurs because horses are so insensitive from being kicked and not really learning a light leg aid. If any of you have ridden reining horses you will have experienced the most leg quick trigger than I have ever felt on a horse. Robyn Icelandic Horse Farm Robyn Hood Phil Pretty Vernon BC Canada www.icefarm.com
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
This horse got his breaks from arena work on the trail and I rode him places that would have challenged some other horses, the most memorable for me being over a suspension bridge. He never hesitated. He was a very nice good-minded horse, probably the most teachable and athletic animal I ever trained. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
On Dec 7, 2007 9:03 PM, Nancy Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I put a western saddle on my hunter/jumper/dressage horse (an off track Jet Deck grandson). I also owned an off the track Jet Deck grandson. He was a hunter jumper that I converted to a trail horse. We did some shows and I taught him to go slow by teaching him western. Great horse that was very sensitive and adventurous. -- Anna Southern Ohio
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 09:36:36AM -0800, Robyn Hood wrote: Now with some western trained horses, like barrel racers etc...well there is a lot of leg contact, a lot of go go go.kick kick kick. I have certainly seen people do this - get on and think they have to kick to get the horse to go forward. *laughs* i have seen this with several of my western-trained students. stjarni obligingly stands there and waits for something meaningful to occur :) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
Anybody ever ride a cutting horse? Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
And most (all?) horses can certainly learn to recognize the difference between a cue and a bumble. If they can't, I wouldn't call them well-trained. They might be started, but I couldn't consider them well trained. and i think if they over-react to a bumble they have trust/past abuse issues. Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 07:15:46AM -0500, Karen Thomas wrote: Anyway, her quote above makes me think of something. A lot of us have heard the old warnings that we shouldn't use our legs on our Icelandic's. I've heard some Icelandic's described as well-trained but buyers were warned never to use legs on them. Isn't that a conflict in terms? Ok, how can a horse be well-trained in any sense if you can't put your legs on him without risking him/her taking off like a rocket? let's consider what training means. it means association of an action by a rider with a desired response by the horse, yes? so for any given rider, their range of actions is what's available to the horse. i suspect that people familiar with horses such as you describe wuold no more miscue them with their legs than i would set off a racetrack bell near an ottb. that doesn't mean they're not well-trained; it may mean they are unsuitable for janice (who doesn't seem the ottb type to me either). stjarni seems to tune himself somewhat to different riders. i go to a lot of effort to help my students build a quiet, stable leg, but more to help them avoid the wobbly feelings janice has complained about than to keep stjarni from taking off lightning-like (he won't do that in the ring anyway, but besides that, his training is such that his cue for that is a half-seat, a cluck, and a release with the reins -- no leg at all). he *might* let j get away with a jiggy foot; i don't know. he lets some of my students get away with their legs sliding back halfway to his croup, for instance. but a jiggy foot from me -- that gets lateral movement away from my foot. a foot moved back -- even an eighth of the way croupwards -- from me means this cue is just for your hindquarters. is that bad training? i don't think so; i taught him that on purpose and am glad he's gotten good at it, though i now have to work even harder on my own stability of leg so as not to cue him inadvertently. (or perhaps he is training me, which i feel is within his job description as a school horse.) i guess my summary point here is, a connection between rider action and horse reaction is not inherently bad training. indeed, a reliable relationship between the two is *good* training. after that the only rough bit is matching up horse and rider and getting them to understand one another, which i think is best done at the one-to-one level (as with janice and tivar), so that the two partners know what to expect and how to get along. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
On 12/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that doesn't mean they're not well-trained; it may mean they are unsuitable for janice (who doesn't seem the ottb type to me either). stjarni seems to tune himself somewhat to different riders. i go to a lot of effort to help my students build a quiet, stable leg, but more to help them avoid the wobbly feelings janice has complained about than to keep stjarni from taking off lightning-like (he won't do that in the ring anyway, re: unsuitable for janice this is bearing in mind most people think i should wear a tee shirt that says I do my own stunts and you havent been on the list long enough to read of some of my more adventurous debacles. oh the stuff my poor jaspar has lived thru... i dont know which was worse, when the mountain of clay collapsed and we fell through and i was suddenly up to my neck and he was underground trying to heave hisself out, or the time we were tripping along in the shallows of a huge lake and he fell into a gator nest and was thrashing to get out and rolled over on me, pinning me underwater... or hmm, lessee, there was that one time when I fell off him five times in five minutes and had to mount him jumping off a cliff like gene autry and landing on his back (thus the five times in five minutes.) and I have ridden two ottb's by the way. neither was as zoomy and squirrely as my gaited stonewall who beat one of them at a full gallop coming from 500 yards behind. or hmm... oh well, its so old now. the main reason i let my feet whop against teev's side when we ride is I am so utterly relaxed and so is he, just dun de dum, sauntering, my legs just doing what they want. smelling roses. he is used to it now! he loves it i think. he sure doesnt object! i bet he thinks of it like its a nice rhythm to walk to, going step and then my foot clunk, step clunk step clunk, the rhythm of the road, or trail as it were. like rhythm beads... and i know he doesnt mind because when he stopped to pee and I clinked him on purpose he reach and clacked his teeth at my toe like knock it off, i have to do this now Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
re: unsuitable for janice this is bearing in mind most people think i should wear a tee shirt that says I do my own stunts and you havent been on the list long enough to read of some of my more adventurous debacles. Actually Janice, your adventures have been pretty tame since you've been on this list - I used to get gray hair, just reading your early stories with Jas and Stonewall on the gaitedhorse list! Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1173 - Release Date: 12/5/2007 9:29 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Not using your legs on a horse... ???
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, her quote above makes me think of something. A lot of us have heard the old warnings that we shouldn't use our legs on our Icelandic's. I've heard some Icelandic's described as well-trained but buyers were warned never to use legs on them. I know that of the Icelandics that we have, that were trained in Iceland, or by an Icelandic trainer, that while riding our leg is relaxed, yet we can give cues with our legs, for sidepass and such. Now with some western trained horses, like barrel racers etc...well there is a lot of leg contact, a lot of go go go.kick kick kick. This might be a simple language issue, as who knows what Icelandic people over there might think about American riders...if you watch those westerns you would think we all had rough hands and were heavy with the boot! On the other extreme, we may want to ask a horse to sidepass, leg yield, move over to open a gate on the trail, or we might want to ask for a canter using a traditional canter aid. Can most people do these things without using their legs? Karen I know I have been taught to use my legs and seat with these horses...leg and seat aids...the less rein the better, and that is from a trainer here that has trained riders in Iceland and has worked with many 'traditional' Icelandic trainers. And she says every Icelandic trainer is different in their approach to the horses and to problem solving and training issues. Just like the trainers here differ... Skye Fire Island Eco-Treks-808-443-6085 Fire Island Professional Farrier Service-640-6080
