Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
(3) While it is almost certainly too late to populate it before Berlin, I think the meeting page template could use a Remote Participants main section with pointers to hints and other relevant materials, including which mailing lists one should watch and that the web version of the meeting agenda should be refreshed at least daily. Wouldn't hurt to repeat the instructions about what to do if the feeds go bad there either. We have created a small section called Remote Participation on the lower right side of the 87 meeting page here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/index.html. It can and will be improved over time, but it's a start. -Alexa -- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amor...@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com http://www.amsl.com/
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 27/07/13 11:25, Alexa Morris wrote: We have created a small section called Remote Participation on the lower right side of the 87 meeting page here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/index.html. It can and will be improved over time, but it's a start. +1. The key parts are there now. Thanks, Aaron -Alexa -- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amor...@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com http://www.amsl.com/
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
--On Saturday, July 27, 2013 03:25 -0700 Alexa Morris amor...@amsl.com wrote: (3) While it is almost certainly too late to populate it before Berlin, I think the meeting page template could use a Remote Participants main section with pointers to hints and other relevant materials, including which mailing lists one should watch and that the web version of the meeting agenda should be refreshed at least daily. Wouldn't hurt to repeat the instructions about what to do if the feeds go bad there either. We have created a small section called Remote Participation on the lower right side of the 87 meeting page here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/index.html. It can and will be improved over time, but it's a start. This is a wonderful step forward. Thanks. john
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
I agree with your suggestion Christer. Remote-participants have right to register their attendance because they do attend remotely and IETF SHOULD register their information if available. Last meetings I did not like that I was not registered because I am remote, but now I feel more welcomed. I think the location of remote participant at the meeting time can be variable per participant (so can be distracting). Even participants that attend some meeting sessions may be remote in others or attend both ways at same time, so I think it is better to know/register how many are only-remote and at which group-sessions and for how long, and how many remote inputs per session. Then the registered info are useful for IETF to improve it participation per meetings or meeting-locations. AB On 7/25/13, Christer Holmberg christer.holmb...@ericsson.com wrote: Hi, Whatever the information is used for, or not used for, I think it would be useful to know the number of remote participants, and where they are located. Regards, Christer Sent from Windows using TouchDown (www.nitrodesk.com) -Original Message- From: SM [s...@resistor.net] To: Christer Holmberg [christer.holmb...@ericsson.com] CC: John C Klensin [john-i...@jck.com]; ietf@ietf.org [ietf@ietf.org] Subject: Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception Hi Christer, At 13:54 24-07-2013, Christer Holmberg wrote: Why couldn't remote participants register to the meeting like all other participants? Remote participation would of course still be free, but it would allow remote participants to subscribe to the attendee list in the same way as other participants. A quick scan of that list shows the following topics: - coffee, sims - mailing list for IETF women and the following comment: I'm not sure why I should be required to give my contact information to get a document prepared by the Brussels airport for Brussels passengers. In addition, it would provide better knowledge to IETF about the number of remote participants, where they are physically located (which might be useful input when planning future meeting locations) etc. I doubt that the IETF chooses its meeting location based on where the remote participants are located. I'll go off-topic first. Mr Reschke once asked I was just trying to understand *why* the archive can't be at http://www.ietf.org/tao/archive. Mr Housley replied that I was told that we cannot have http://www.ietf.org/tao directed to the document and also be the directory containing the archive directory. Mr Hansen provided some technical details about how that can be done. The point here is it might be better to have a good answer as some IETF participant might deconstruct the answer and find the flaw in it. Mr Klensin's message was about how to find out about the 87all mailing list. Participants within the inner circle know how to find it. The rest of the participants will not be able to find that information as it is not easily accessible through the www.ietf.orghttp://www.ietf.org web site. There is probably a lack of information about what information is provided through the ietf-announce@ mailing list. Regards, -sm
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 7/24/13, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 09:22 +0300 IETF Chair ch...@ietf.org wrote: I wanted to let you know about an experiment we are trying out in Berlin. ... But we want as many people as possible to become involved in these efforts, or at least provide their feedback during the week. So we have given an opportunity for the BOFs to display a poster in the Welcome Reception (Sunday 5pm to 7pm). If you are attending the reception, take a look at the posters and look for topics that interest you. What about each poster state which WG/RFCs it is mostly depending-on/related (if applicable), this can make an easier way to know if I am interested or should be interested. Someone running the BOF is also likely standing by, so you can also get directly involved in discussions, sign up to help, etc. We hope that this helps you all network with others even more :-) How can I access the live discuss while remote? The remote live networking with BOF is still not-clear/difficult. I as remote would like to know how many attended and interested per BOF. In the interest of encouraging remote participation and involvement in those BOFs, could these posters be made available online before the reception? Will they eventually be incorporated into the minutes? Agree, and I will be more encouraged to participate if I know an estimate community rank (not sure how to evaluate may be from IESG), a similar way of poster presentation format per all BOFs (helps to read through, save time, and get more involve in more BOFs), how much work was done so far. And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? Agree, but to clarify; if not registered then the remote participant is still not sure to be involved, but if registered then means he/she is interested. AB
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 26 Jul 2013, at 07:36, Abdussalam Baryun abdussalambar...@gmail.com wrote: On 7/24/13, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote: --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 09:22 +0300 IETF Chair ch...@ietf.org wrote: I wanted to let you know about an experiment we are trying out in Berlin. ... But we want as many people as possible to become involved in these efforts, or at least provide their feedback during the week. So we have given an opportunity for the BOFs to display a poster in the Welcome Reception (Sunday 5pm to 7pm). If you are attending the reception, take a look at the posters and look for topics that interest you. What about each poster state which WG/RFCs it is mostly depending-on/related (if applicable), this can make an easier way to know if I am interested or should be interested. The poster deadline passed some time ago. The easiest way to decide if you're interested though is to read the poster, assuming it is well-written :) The conference-style poster idea came up quite late this year. It's a good idea, and is hopefully something that can be improved for IETF88 and beyond. I suspect the idea arose from IETF87 having an unusually high number of BOFs. Tim
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Abdussalam Baryun abdussalambar...@gmail.com wrote: How can I access the live discuss while remote? Sheldon Cooper had a good idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5LKXO9aCTc that is becoming more real every day: http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2013/06/27/rise-of-the-telepresence-robots/ ;-) -Dave -- Dave Aronson, the T. Rex of Codosaurus LLC, secret-cleared freelance software developer taking contracts in or near NoVa or remote. See information at http://www.Codosaur.us/.
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
John, --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 09:22 +0300 IETF Chair ch...@ietf.org wrote: I wanted to let you know about an experiment we are trying out in Berlin. ... But we want as many people as possible to become involved in these efforts, or at least provide their feedback during the week. So we have given an opportunity for the BOFs to display a poster in the Welcome Reception (Sunday 5pm to 7pm). If you are attending the reception, take a look at the posters and look for topics that interest you. Someone running the BOF is also likely standing by, so you can also get directly involved in discussions, sign up to help, etc. We hope that this helps you all network with others even more :-) In the interest of encouraging remote participation and involvement in those BOFs, could these posters be made available online before the reception? I'm not sure that those posters will/should contain more information than what http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki contains. So I'm questioning whether making those posters available online before the meeting, or even in the meeting minutes (to answer your next question) is that useful. Let me explain what the targeted audience is for those posters. It's not intended for the people who know about a specific BoF and plan on participating. It's intended for people who have not prepared for a specific BoF, but just come to listen to it, and in the end, go to mic. to provide some useful feedback: pay attention to this!, similar work was done ..., don't forget that ..., don't forget OPS ;-) Talking about my experience now, it's only now that I'm an IESG member that I know what the BoFs are about before the IETF week. In the past, I would look at the agenda early in the week, and based on the BoF name/acronym (yes, nothing more), I would decide to attend a specific BoF. However, if I would discuss the BoF topic for just a minute or two, I could quickly decide whether I'm interested and whether I could add some value to a BoF. This discussion generally took place at the welcome reception. This is this minute or two discussion that posters at the welcome reception should facilitate, thanks to the person standing next to the poster. Sure, everything is on the web, or sent to a mailing list, but we have way too many emails already. Regards, Benoit Will they eventually be incorporated into the minutes? And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? thanks, john
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
PDFs of all received BoF posters have been uploaded to the Meeting Materials page for those who are interested: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/87/materials.html. Regards, Alexa On Jul 26, 2013, at 3:36 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: John, --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 09:22 +0300 IETF Chair ch...@ietf.org wrote: I wanted to let you know about an experiment we are trying out in Berlin. ... But we want as many people as possible to become involved in these efforts, or at least provide their feedback during the week. So we have given an opportunity for the BOFs to display a poster in the Welcome Reception (Sunday 5pm to 7pm). If you are attending the reception, take a look at the posters and look for topics that interest you. Someone running the BOF is also likely standing by, so you can also get directly involved in discussions, sign up to help, etc. We hope that this helps you all network with others even more :-) In the interest of encouraging remote participation and involvement in those BOFs, could these posters be made available online before the reception? I'm not sure that those posters will/should contain more information than what http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki contains. So I'm questioning whether making those posters available online before the meeting, or even in the meeting minutes (to answer your next question) is that useful. Let me explain what the targeted audience is for those posters. It's not intended for the people who know about a specific BoF and plan on participating. It's intended for people who have not prepared for a specific BoF, but just come to listen to it, and in the end, go to mic. to provide some useful feedback: pay attention to this!, similar work was done ..., don't forget that ..., don't forget OPS ;-) Talking about my experience now, it's only now that I'm an IESG member that I know what the BoFs are about before the IETF week. In the past, I would look at the agenda early in the week, and based on the BoF name/acronym (yes, nothing more), I would decide to attend a specific BoF. However, if I would discuss the BoF topic for just a minute or two, I could quickly decide whether I'm interested and whether I could add some value to a BoF. This discussion generally took place at the welcome reception. This is this minute or two discussion that posters at the welcome reception should facilitate, thanks to the person standing next to the poster. Sure, everything is on the web, or sent to a mailing list, but we have way too many emails already. Regards, Benoit Will they eventually be incorporated into the minutes? And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? thanks, john -- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amor...@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com http://www.amsl.com/
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Hi, Whatever the information is used for, or not used for, I think it would be useful to know the number of remote participants, and where they are located. Regards, Christer Sent from Windows using TouchDown (www.nitrodesk.com) -Original Message- From: SM [s...@resistor.net] To: Christer Holmberg [christer.holmb...@ericsson.com] CC: John C Klensin [john-i...@jck.com]; ietf@ietf.org [ietf@ietf.org] Subject: Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception Hi Christer, At 13:54 24-07-2013, Christer Holmberg wrote: Why couldn't remote participants register to the meeting like all other participants? Remote participation would of course still be free, but it would allow remote participants to subscribe to the attendee list in the same way as other participants. A quick scan of that list shows the following topics: - coffee, sims - mailing list for IETF women and the following comment: I'm not sure why I should be required to give my contact information to get a document prepared by the Brussels airport for Brussels passengers. In addition, it would provide better knowledge to IETF about the number of remote participants, where they are physically located (which might be useful input when planning future meeting locations) etc. I doubt that the IETF chooses its meeting location based on where the remote participants are located. I'll go off-topic first. Mr Reschke once asked I was just trying to understand *why* the archive can't be at http://www.ietf.org/tao/archive. Mr Housley replied that I was told that we cannot have http://www.ietf.org/tao directed to the document and also be the directory containing the archive directory. Mr Hansen provided some technical details about how that can be done. The point here is it might be better to have a good answer as some IETF participant might deconstruct the answer and find the flaw in it. Mr Klensin's message was about how to find out about the 87all mailing list. Participants within the inner circle know how to find it. The rest of the participants will not be able to find that information as it is not easily accessible through the www.ietf.orghttp://www.ietf.org web site. There is probably a lack of information about what information is provided through the ietf-announce@ mailing list. Regards, -sm
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 25/07/13 05:27, Moriarty, Kathleen wrote: I like Aaron's suggestion to update the web with important information about a meeting. There is a lot of mail on the list and that could be a useful way to communicate updates, etc. Thanks, in case the previous mail is down in the pile already... One thing that may also benefit both Remote and Meeting participants: An anchor point to distribute live update about IETF week, e.g., schedule change, latest bits-n-bytes info, WG/BoF agenda changes/slides uploaded(with embedded link), highlight/awards at plenary, emergent notice for facility issues/weather/traffic/hotel stealing... Most of those could be found if digging hard enough from hundreds of mails during IETF week, but a quick link definitely helps. It can be a live update bullet on the front page of IETF meeting http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/ Cheers, Aaron Best regards, Kathleen Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/07/2013 11:27, Scott Brim wrote: Brian: yes but non-registered thus non-ifentifiable subscribers, spammers etc don't. We're talking about a list with a useful lifetime of perhaps 3 weeks. I really don't think spam is a big issue. Trolls might be, but they would be *our* trolls ;-) Anyway - as John Klensin said, we should come up with a reasonably complete and welcoming set of info and facilities for the remotes. That may well include pro forma registration. Brian On Jul 24, 2013 3:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/07/2013 05:01, Scott Brim wrote: The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Ahem. Either remote participants are allowed to post, or they need a list of their own. I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? Brian
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
--On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 09:22 +0300 IETF Chair ch...@ietf.org wrote: I wanted to let you know about an experiment we are trying out in Berlin. ... But we want as many people as possible to become involved in these efforts, or at least provide their feedback during the week. So we have given an opportunity for the BOFs to display a poster in the Welcome Reception (Sunday 5pm to 7pm). If you are attending the reception, take a look at the posters and look for topics that interest you. Someone running the BOF is also likely standing by, so you can also get directly involved in discussions, sign up to help, etc. We hope that this helps you all network with others even more :-) In the interest of encouraging remote participation and involvement in those BOFs, could these posters be made available online before the reception? Will they eventually be incorporated into the minutes? And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? thanks, john
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
John, In the interest of encouraging remote participation and involvement in those BOFs, could these posters be made available online before the reception? Will they eventually be incorporated into the minutes? Good questions. We can work on that… And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? I sent the mail to ietf-announce, so I would guess many non-attendees got it as well. Jari
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
--On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:17 +0300 Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? I sent the mail to ietf-announce, so I would guess many non-attendees got it as well. Yes. I was thinking a bit more generally. For example, schedule changes during the meeting week, IIR, go to NNall, and not ietf-announce. As a remote participant, one might prefer to avoid the usual (and interminable) discussions about coffee shops, weather, and the diameter of the cookies, but it seems to me that there is a good deal of material that goes to the two meeting lists that would be of use. Since I'm on those lists in spite of being remote (registered and then cancelled), I can try to keep track of whether anything significant to remote participants appears on the meeting discuss list this time if it would help. best, john
Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
I am another remote participant who would like to be able to subscribe to the meeting-specific mailing list. I can skip (myself) the ones about coffee and cookies, but definitely want to read the ones about schedule changes, etc. And even the other messages give me a taste of what it would be like to be there. Janet ietf-boun...@ietf.org wrote on 07/24/2013 04:30:40 AM: From: John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com To: Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net Cc: ietf@ietf.org Date: 07/24/2013 04:31 AM Subject: Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception Sent by: ietf-boun...@ietf.org --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:17 +0300 Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? I sent the mail to ietf-announce, so I would guess many non-attendees got it as well. Yes. I was thinking a bit more generally. For example, schedule changes during the meeting week, IIR, go to NNall, and not ietf-announce. As a remote participant, one might prefer to avoid the usual (and interminable) discussions about coffee shops, weather, and the diameter of the cookies, but it seems to me that there is a good deal of material that goes to the two meeting lists that would be of use. Since I'm on those lists in spite of being remote (registered and then cancelled), I can try to keep track of whether anything significant to remote participants appears on the meeting discuss list this time if it would help. best, john
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 7/24/13 12:30 AM, John C Klensin wrote: Yes. I was thinking a bit more generally. For example, schedule changes during the meeting week, IIR, go to NNall, and not ietf-announce. As a remote participant, one might prefer to avoid the usual (and interminable) discussions about coffee shops, weather, and the diameter of the cookies, but it seems to me that there is a good deal of material that goes to the two meeting lists that would be of use. Since I'm on those lists in spite of being remote (registered and then cancelled), I can try to keep track of whether anything significant to remote participants appears on the meeting discuss list this time if it would help. Yes, the meeting mailing lists are here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/email-list.html Melinda
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Janet, I am another remote participant who would like to be able to subscribe to the meeting-specific mailing list. I can skip (myself) the ones about coffee and cookies, but definitely want to read the ones about schedule changes, etc. And even the other messages give me a taste of what it would be like to be there. Understood. I'm wondering if this points to a need to get on the meeting list easily. Either without registering, or having a registration flag of being interested in the meeting while not intending to be there. We could create another mailing list too, but I'm a little sensitive for creating many slightly different mailing lists (duplicate messages, posting accidentally on the wrong one, etc) Jari
Remote participation and meeting mailing lists (was: Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception)
--On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 06:43 -0800 Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote: On 7/24/13 12:30 AM, John C Klensin wrote: Yes. I was thinking a bit more generally. For example, schedule changes during the meeting week, IIR, go to NNall, and not ietf-announce. As a remote participant, one might prefer to avoid the usual (and interminable) discussions ... Yes, the meeting mailing lists are here: http://www.ietf.org/meeting/email-list.html Yes, but... (1) A hypothetical remote participating newcomer is expected to find that how? I note that the IETF home page links to mailing lists do not list either 87all or 87attendees in any of the obvious places. (2) That page provides a mechanism for subscribing to 87attendees (the cookies and coffee and, I assume, bumped-from-hotel-attendees very soon, discussion list) but not a link to the far more important for remote folks 87all. If there is a way to subscribe to that without registering, I haven't found it. Note to remote participants: The cookies and coffee list is also where a lot of comments about the meeting network and related facilities appears. While most remote participants don't need to know how poorly the network works in some alternate hotel, information about Meetecho and Webex status tends to appear there too. john
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 24 Jul 2013, at 16:18, Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: Janet, I am another remote participant who would like to be able to subscribe to the meeting-specific mailing list. I can skip (myself) the ones about coffee and cookies, but definitely want to read the ones about schedule changes, etc. And even the other messages give me a taste of what it would be like to be there. Understood. I'm wondering if this points to a need to get on the meeting list easily. Either without registering, or having a registration flag of being interested in the meeting while not intending to be there. We could create another mailing list too, but I'm a little sensitive for creating many slightly different mailing lists (duplicate messages, posting accidentally on the wrong one, etc) I see no reason why the 87attend...@ietf.org list shouldn't be open to remote participants. Is that not the case already? We should be doing all we can to encourage participation. I would share the concerns of duplication if an 87rem...@ietf.org list were set up, but it might be useful for those who aren't there to be able to discuss issues, tips, etc with remote participation. A lot of meeting topics do come up on the main ietf list too, of course. Tim
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
I see no reason why the 87attend...@ietf.org list shouldn't be open to remote participants. Is that not the case already? We should be doing all we can to encourage participation. Several people pointed out already (in private e-mail) that the list might be all that is needed, and it probably is already open. Maybe it just needs better advertising. sign up here if you want to follow discussions about the meeting, even if you are a remote attendee Jari
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Scott
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
--On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 17:46 +0100 Tim Chown t...@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: I see no reason why the 87attend...@ietf.org list shouldn't be open to remote participants. Is that not the case already? We should be doing all we can to encourage participation. It is already. It is a bit hard to find, but it is there and open. ... Unfortunately 87...@ietf.org --the announce version of the list-- is where the really important things, like schedule changes, show up. And, at least as far as I can tell, there is no way for a non-registrant to get on that list. ... best, john
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Unfortunately 87...@ietf.org --the announce version of the list-- is where the really important things, like schedule changes, show up. And, at least as far as I can tell, there is no way for a non-registrant to get on that list. Has anyone tried to subscribe on the listinfo page?: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87all I just did, using another email address, and that email address got the normal click here to confirm response. Barry
RE: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
John, As I understand it, the meeting-specific mailing lists are used either mostly or exclusively for chatting about stuff at the meeting that is most relevant to folks at the meeting. Stuff like network/power/room issues, potential social activities, etc. If folks that are not at the meeting want to read stuff like that, and it's possible for them to do so, great. But why jump through hoops on either side to make that possible? These lists are not - AFAIK - intended for meeting participation anywhere near as much as they are for meeting logisitics. -- Eric -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John C Klensin Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 2:26 PM To: Tim Chown; Jari Arkko Cc: ietf@ietf.org list Subject: Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 17:46 +0100 Tim Chown t...@ecs.soton.ac.uk wrote: I see no reason why the 87attend...@ietf.org list shouldn't be open to remote participants. Is that not the case already? We should be doing all we can to encourage participation. It is already. It is a bit hard to find, but it is there and open. ... Unfortunately 87...@ietf.org --the announce version of the list-- is where the really important things, like schedule changes, show up. And, at least as far as I can tell, there is no way for a non-registrant to get on that list. ... best, john
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 02:26:21PM -0400, John C Klensin wrote: Unfortunately 87...@ietf.org --the announce version of the list-- is where the really important things, like schedule changes, show up. And, at least as far as I can tell, there is no way for a non-registrant to get on that list. This could be solved by the simple expedient of creating an additional class of attendee, remote. We already have classes. This would also get remoters on the registration list, which would be an additional benefit. It'd probably need an additional field in display [Remote Y/N] of participants, though. A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 25/07/2013 05:01, Scott Brim wrote: The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Ahem. Either remote participants are allowed to post, or they need a list of their own. I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? Brian
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On Jul 24, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? We get that on the attendees list anyway sometimes, and I think it's probably not a bad thing, although I'm pretty sure there's an email address for getting support of this type.
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Hi, Why couldn't remote participants register to the meeting like all other participants? Remote participation would of course still be free, but it would allow remote participants to subscribe to the attendee list in the same way as other participants. In addition, it would provide better knowledge to IETF about the number of remote participants, where they are physically located (which might be useful input when planning future meeting locations) etc. Regards, Christer Sent from Windows using TouchDown (www.nitrodesk.com) -Original Message- From: Brian E Carpenter [brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com] To: Scott Brim [scott.b...@gmail.com] CC: John C Klensin [john-i...@jck.com]; Tim Chown [t...@ecs.soton.ac.uk]; ietf@ietf.org list [ietf@ietf.org] Subject: Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception On 25/07/2013 05:01, Scott Brim wrote: The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Ahem. Either remote participants are allowed to post, or they need a list of their own. I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? Brian
Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 24/07/13 09:30, John C Klensin wrote: --On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 11:17 +0300 Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: And, incidentally, is there a way for remote participants to sign up for one or both meeting-related mailing lists without registering (or using a remote participation registration mechanism, which would be my preference for other reasons)? I sent the mail to ietf-announce, so I would guess many non-attendees got it as well. Yes. I was thinking a bit more generally. For example, schedule changes during the meeting week, IIR, go to NNall, and not ietf-announce. As a remote participant, one might prefer to avoid the usual (and interminable) discussions about coffee shops, weather, and the diameter of the cookies, but it seems to me that there is a good deal of material that goes to the two meeting lists that would be of use. Since I'm on those lists in spite of being remote (registered and then cancelled), I can try to keep track of whether anything significant to remote participants appears on the meeting discuss list this time if it would help. One thing that may also benefit both Remote and Meeting participants: An anchor point to distribute live update about IETF week, e.g., schedule change, latest bits-n-bytes info, WG/BoF agenda changes/slides uploaded(with embedded link), highlight/awards at plenary, emergent notice for facility issues/weather/traffic/hotel stealing... Most of those could be found if digging hard enough from hundreds of mails during IETF week, but a quick link definitely helps. It can be a live update bullet on the front page of IETF meeting http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/ Cheers, Aaron best, john
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Hi Christer, At 13:54 24-07-2013, Christer Holmberg wrote: Why couldn't remote participants register to the meeting like all other participants? Remote participation would of course still be free, but it would allow remote participants to subscribe to the attendee list in the same way as other participants. A quick scan of that list shows the following topics: - coffee, sims - mailing list for IETF women and the following comment: I'm not sure why I should be required to give my contact information to get a document prepared by the Brussels airport for Brussels passengers. In addition, it would provide better knowledge to IETF about the number of remote participants, where they are physically located (which might be useful input when planning future meeting locations) etc. I doubt that the IETF chooses its meeting location based on where the remote participants are located. I'll go off-topic first. Mr Reschke once asked I was just trying to understand *why* the archive can't be at http://www.ietf.org/tao/archive. Mr Housley replied that I was told that we cannot have http://www.ietf.org/tao directed to the document and also be the directory containing the archive directory. Mr Hansen provided some technical details about how that can be done. The point here is it might be better to have a good answer as some IETF participant might deconstruct the answer and find the flaw in it. Mr Klensin's message was about how to find out about the 87all mailing list. Participants within the inner circle know how to find it. The rest of the participants will not be able to find that information as it is not easily accessible through the www.ietf.org web site. There is probably a lack of information about what information is provided through the ietf-announce@ mailing list. Regards, -sm
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
--On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 14:36 -0400 Barry Leiba barryle...@computer.org wrote: Unfortunately 87...@ietf.org --the announce version of the list-- is where the really important things, like schedule changes, show up. And, at least as far as I can tell, there is no way for a non-registrant to get on that list. Has anyone tried to subscribe on the listinfo page?: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87all I just did, using another email address, and that email address got the normal click here to confirm response. Barry, I'm sorry to be difficult about this, but the point I was trying to make was about access by relatively remote relative newcomers. For them, at least, the question is not does the listinfo page work if one can find it or guess at its URL. Instead, suppose such a person goes looking with reasonable knowledge of the information on the IETF home page, the meeting main page, and perhaps even the Tao and previous Newcomer's Introduction slides. So, first she goes to the Meetings page for this meeting (http://www.ietf.org/meeting/87/index.html). Seems like Meeting Communication would be a reasonable place to look, and, lo, there is a Mailing Lists entry there. It points to 87attendees (plus runners, companions, and food links). Dead end. So, back to the mail IETF page and the Mailing Lists entry and its links. 87all is an Announcement List, but that page http://www.ietf.org/list/announcement.html) discusses only IETF-Announce, I-D-Announce, and IPR-Announce plus the IESG Agenda Distribution. No joy. If this lucky newcomer figures out that it is not a discussion list, she skips the Discussion List link (http://www.ietf.org/list/discussion.html) but all that is there is another link to http://www.ietf.org/meeting/email-list.html and hence information about 87attendees, etc. Not a hint so far that 87all even exists. So her (most IETF-type men would have run out of patience by now) adventure then takes her to the Non-WG Lists page (http://www.ietf.org/list/nonwg.html). It starts out by assuring the reader that, if the list exists, it will be listed (or at least that is how I would interpret attempts to list all the active, publicly visible lists that are considered to be related to the IETF, but are not the main list of any working group, in alphabetical order by list name. as a rather strong indicate that 87all and 87announce ought to be listed there: they are certainly active and publicly visible and it would be hard to claim that they are not relate to the IETF. No joy... neither list appears there. If we are serious about remote participants, that list should be known, advertised, and accessible unless it really isn't used for anything but local logistical information (as Joel suggests). But it didn't take me long to find examples of announcements there (and apparently nowhere else) that would be of interest to remote participants. Examples: * At IETF 86, the Thursday Lunchtime Panel was announced there and apparently nowhere else (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/86all/current/msg00033.html). I don't know if it was made available to remove participants or not but, if it wasn't and I were a remote participant with significant interest in the subject matter, I'd want to know about the presentation and have ample time to ask that appropriate arrangements be made. * I also found an agenda change announcement (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/86all/current/msg00031.html) that was apparently posted only there. This one might not count if the change was made before the meeting started. * However, if I go back a few more meetings, I find http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/84all/current/msg00010.html, which is a meeting room change. And meeting room changes affect audiocasts. Wanda's note about the web agenda is relevant, but our hypothetical newcomer isn't given that warning on the meeting page or, since she has been unable to subscribe to NNall, the announcements there. Recommendations, with some comment about things that aren't rocket science included by reference: (1) Put 87all and 87attendees on the Non-WG mailing list page. Or, perhaps better yet, mention there (as well as on the main discussion list page) that there are meeting-specific lists and include a link to the Meeting Email Lists page. It couldn't hurt and might help. (2) Modify the meeting email lists page to discuss NNall as well as NNattendees and explain what it is for and that, while there will be some local logistics (maybe mostly local logistics), remote participants should probably keep an eye on it as well as ietf-announce. (3) While it is almost certainly too late to populate it before Berlin, I think the meeting page template could use a Remote Participants main section with pointers to hints and other relevant materials, including which mailing lists one should watch and that the web version of the meeting agenda should be refreshed at least daily. Wouldn't hurt
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Has anyone tried to subscribe on the listinfo page?: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/87all I'm sorry to be difficult about this, but the point I was trying to make was about access by relatively remote relative newcomers. For them, at least, the question is not does the listinfo page work if one can find it or guess at its URL. Of course I know that, and better advertising of the lists would be great. I was simply confirming for those who are reading that one CAN subscribe without registering for the meeting. That's all. Barry
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
Brian: yes but non-registered thus non-ifentifiable subscribers, spammers etc don't. On Jul 24, 2013 3:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/07/2013 05:01, Scott Brim wrote: The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Ahem. Either remote participants are allowed to post, or they need a list of their own. I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? Brian
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 7/24/13 10:35 AM, Eric Gray wrote: These lists are not - AFAIK - intended for meeting participation anywhere near as much as they are for meeting logisitics. My experience has been that they're for both, and while I'll be a remote participant this time I've already subscribed to the 87attendees list. I don't think it's accurate to describe putting up a mailing list to which people may or may not choose to subscribe as jumping through hoops, although I will say that I think we should be jumping through hoops to enable broader participation and to improve remote participation. Melinda
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
On 25/07/2013 11:27, Scott Brim wrote: Brian: yes but non-registered thus non-ifentifiable subscribers, spammers etc don't. We're talking about a list with a useful lifetime of perhaps 3 weeks. I really don't think spam is a big issue. Trolls might be, but they would be *our* trolls ;-) Anyway - as John Klensin said, we should come up with a reasonably complete and welcoming set of info and facilities for the remotes. That may well include pro forma registration. Brian On Jul 24, 2013 3:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/07/2013 05:01, Scott Brim wrote: The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Ahem. Either remote participants are allowed to post, or they need a list of their own. I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? Brian
Re: Remote participants access to Meeting Mailing Lists was Re: BOF posters in the welcome reception
I like Aaron's suggestion to update the web with important information about a meeting. There is a lot of mail on the list and that could be a useful way to communicate updates, etc. Best regards, Kathleen Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/07/2013 11:27, Scott Brim wrote: Brian: yes but non-registered thus non-ifentifiable subscribers, spammers etc don't. We're talking about a list with a useful lifetime of perhaps 3 weeks. I really don't think spam is a big issue. Trolls might be, but they would be *our* trolls ;-) Anyway - as John Klensin said, we should come up with a reasonably complete and welcoming set of info and facilities for the remotes. That may well include pro forma registration. Brian On Jul 24, 2013 3:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/07/2013 05:01, Scott Brim wrote: The point of having a separate list for participants was to avoid spamming the ietf list. It can be open to everyone to subscribe to, since anyone can see the archives, HOWEVER I recommend that only registered participants be allowed to post. Ahem. Either remote participants are allowed to post, or they need a list of their own. I would envisage a fair amount of chatter about specific remote-participation issues, like this new codec isn't working for me, is it OK for anyone else using browser version on operating system version? Brian
