Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
b) he's taking the most measured approach yet in recorded history, to bring principles of capitalism to charity. I have been thinking seriously about such issues, and feel that one could make a convincing case that Bill Gates, through the work of his foundation has done more tangible good than the free software movement. [snip] this is true. sometimes i feel the historians of the future may just label him the robin hood of the software industry, since history does tend to gloss and distort facts over time. in any case, the facts speak for themselves. the incredible wealth he amassed is being distributed by his own hands into, and i repeat, the most measured approached yet in recorded history, of capitalism for sustainable development. While I do not at all accept Microsoft's predatory policies, nor the attempts of institutions like Microsoft India to claim that somehow the charity of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation means that governments should buy more Windows desktops, ... oh! i'd love citations and references on this point. for a lot of other stuff i tend to study. do you have any? c) gautam buddha, mahavir, and a few saints who thought hard about the inequality of wealth always found an easy way to equality: donate wealth and become poor themselves. alas, all the wealth given away through thousands of years by hundreds of wealthy people has not eradicated poverty. yet. it has only made the wealthy poor by their own choice, and helped quite a few assuage their 'money guilt' perhaps because, as mario puzo once said 'behind every fortune there is a crime.' Double bah! Anybody who hides behind any kind of -ism, or resorts to invoking the names of great people, has already abdicated any personal responsibility. not true. i mention *only* buddha and mahavir, as these were very very rich and wealthy kings. buddha was like the billgates of his kingdom. not only did he donate his wealth, he actually walked his own kingdom as a beggar living in turn completely on the charity of his own former people. that *is* awe-inspiring. buddha did not donate what he could spare, he donated everything. the other reason why i mention these two, is because in my personal dignity and perspective of life, i find inspiration in the life and works of enlightened people, just like you may find with the works of richard stallman and gora. each to their own. we call it freedom, eh? finally, inspiration does not mean we necessarily abdicate personal responsibility, but i do understand that there could be cases where this happens. let me clarify, not in my case. i cite them for their approach to wealth and charity, to study and draw our conclusions. It does not matter whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism, capitalism, Marxism, or even Gora-ism. Not that there weren't great people that did great things. However, the world is a living, breathing, dynamic, thing, and at every moment poses unique challenges. If your response is driven by any kind of ideology, it is bound to be inadequate. Gautam Buddha never had to contend with the Internet, though I would have liked to see his response to the ubiquitous availability of pr0n. great question. the answer is simple. the approach of buddhism, especially zen, is 'yes to everything'. i presume buddha would have said if you find a problem with poPcORN on the internet, then obviously the problem is not with the internet, it is with you. use this as an opportunity to wake yourself up. or words to that effect. Find Nirvana in poPcorn over the web. so Zen! ok, we're so way off-topic, but gosh! this topic is fun. so those interested to discuss this further, we should meet offline over chai and coffee, and also touch on a topic that i find equally fascinating: what would have been the response of enlightened people to the world of free software, copyrights, and DRM? this especially because such individuals have almost always given birth to the publishing and dissemination of scriptures and techniques and even medicine. so, if buddha was alive today and contending with the internet, i'd ask him to point his Inner Browser to http://freed.in, and submit a talk. Regards, Gora regards niyam bhushan ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
Dear Niyam, I was going to ignore this, but feel compelled to reply as I strongly disagree with what you have to say. Please understand that this is by no means a personal attack on you. On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 02:54 +0530, Linux Lingam wrote: [snip] a) bill has no choice but to defecate his billions. he can't digest it all in this life. he can't take it with him to his grave. he can't give it to his children and devastate them. too much wealth can sometimes be a dreadful burden. b) he's taking the most measured approach yet in recorded history, to bring principles of capitalism to charity. I have a question for anybody I hear declaim about the so-called dangers of wealth. What are you personally doing about this? There are several hundred million Indians waiting for your spare wealth, several thousands in Delhi alone. For many of these people, spare wealth is anything beyond a few rotis, salt, and if they are lucky, chillies, to sort of fill their bellies for today. If these do not meet your criteria, I am willing to be the glad recipient of any wealth that *you* have to spare. In the meantime, please spare me your crocodile tears. I have been thinking seriously about such issues, and feel that one could make a convincing case that Bill Gates, through the work of his foundation has done more tangible good than the free software movement. Read up also on robber barons in the US; Nelson Rockefeller in particular. While I do not at all accept Microsoft's predatory policies, nor the attempts of institutions like Microsoft India to claim that somehow the charity of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation means that governments should buy more Windows desktops, this absolutely does not mean that anything Microsoft, or anyone associated with it, does is automatically bad. c) gautam buddha, mahavir, and a few saints who thought hard about the inequality of wealth always found an easy way to equality: donate wealth and become poor themselves. alas, all the wealth given away through thousands of years by hundreds of wealthy people has not eradicated poverty. yet. it has only made the wealthy poor by their own choice, and helped quite a few assuage their 'money guilt' perhaps because, as mario puzo once said 'behind every fortune there is a crime.' Double bah! Anybody who hides behind any kind of -ism, or resorts to invoking the names of great people, has already abdicated any personal responsibility. It does not matter whether it is Hinduism, Buddhism, capitalism, Marxism, or even Gora-ism. Not that there weren't great people that did great things. However, the world is a living, breathing, dynamic, thing, and at every moment poses unique challenges. If your response is driven by any kind of ideology, it is bound to be inadequate. Gautam Buddha never had to contend with the Internet, though I would have liked to see his response to the ubiquitous availability of pr0n. Regards, Gora ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
[snip] a) bill has no choice but to defecate his billions. he can't digest it all in this life. he can't take it with him to his grave. he can't give it to his children and devastate them. too much wealth can sometimes be a dreadful burden. b) he's taking the most measured approach yet in recorded history, to bring principles of capitalism to charity. c) gautam buddha, mahavir, and a few saints who thought hard about the inequality of wealth always found an easy way to equality: donate wealth and become poor themselves. alas, all the wealth given away through thousands of years by hundreds of wealthy people has not eradicated poverty. yet. it has only made the wealthy poor by their own choice, and helped quite a few assuage their 'money guilt' perhaps because, as mario puzo once said 'behind every fortune there is a crime.' d) bill is trying hard 'to do the right thing.' e) he has studied the problems with charity, the inefficiencies and even corruption that entwines charity, especially in poverty-stricken countries run by despots, and is trying to offer a working solution. f) the key difference in society today is that before the birth of the software industry, and the industrial revolution, the wealth an individual could generate was directly related to his or her efforts, through products and services. the industrial revolution changed this equation. the business models of intangible economies has created the huge imbalance of wealth evident with microsoft, and even warren buffet. could carry on with this topic, as it is quite fascinating and somehow we all always knew that a day will come when this wealth will have to be given away. as krishna explains in the bhagwad-gita: no person can own wealth and riches. at best, a person can only be its guard and caretaker (chowkidaar) maximum for a complete lifetime. then it has to be given away or will be snatched away, or bequeathed away. the ownership of wealth is an illusion. if you could really own it, you could take it with you beyond your grave. rather than just give it away, bill is trying to use it save a life, find solutions to real problems that cause, sustain, and even aggravate poverty. that's his new measure of wealth. a new proposed variable for measuring the wealth of the wealthy. from 'where do you want to go today?' to 'what problem of humanity do you want to try to solve today?' [stop!] regards niyam ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
On 07-Feb-08, at 2:54 AM, Linux Lingam wrote: [stop!] yes ;-) -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ Foss conference for the common man: http://registration.fossconf.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
Niyam, Very good thoughts. At present I want to just give my comments. I think Budhism needs to be studied more carefully than it is normally. I am not a Buddist but have some idea. The Kshanikwad and why there is misary in the world is very well explained in Buddism. Redistribution of wealth does not solve problem of poverty. It was done 4 times by a king of Tibet and wealth concentrated again due to system. It needs deep study of social, political and economic understanding and deeper understanding of the forces operating in a particular society and a solution thereof. thanks Regards: Prof. (Dr.)A.K. Pandey - Original Message From: Linux Lingam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Linux-Delhi mailing list ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 7 February, 2008 2:54:02 AM Subject: Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism [snip] a) bill has no choice but to defecate his billions. he can't digest it all in this life. he can't take it with him to his grave. he can't give it to his children and devastate them. too much wealth can sometimes be a dreadful burden. b) he's taking the most measured approach yet in recorded history, to bring principles of capitalism to charity. c) gautam buddha, mahavir, and a few saints who thought hard about the inequality of wealth always found an easy way to equality: donate wealth and become poor themselves. alas, all the wealth given away through thousands of years by hundreds of wealthy people has not eradicated poverty. yet. it has only made the wealthy poor by their own choice, and helped quite a few assuage their 'money guilt' perhaps because, as mario puzo once said 'behind every fortune there is a crime.' d) bill is trying hard 'to do the right thing.' e) he has studied the problems with charity, the inefficiencies and even corruption that entwines charity, especially in poverty-stricken countries run by despots, and is trying to offer a working solution. f) the key difference in society today is that before the birth of the software industry, and the industrial revolution, the wealth an individual could generate was directly related to his or her efforts, through products and services. the industrial revolution changed this equation. the business models of intangible economies has created the huge imbalance of wealth evident with microsoft, and even warren buffet. could carry on with this topic, as it is quite fascinating and somehow we all always knew that a day will come when this wealth will have to be given away. as krishna explains in the bhagwad-gita: no person can own wealth and riches. at best, a person can only be its guard and caretaker (chowkidaar) maximum for a complete lifetime. then it has to be given away or will be snatched away, or bequeathed away. the ownership of wealth is an illusion. if you could really own it, you could take it with you beyond your grave. rather than just give it away, bill is trying to use it save a life, find solutions to real problems that cause, sustain, and even aggravate poverty. that's his new measure of wealth. a new proposed variable for measuring the wealth of the wealthy. from 'where do you want to go today?' to 'what problem of humanity do you want to try to solve today?' [stop!] regards niyam ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive..com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
[ilugd] Creative Capitalism
Is Billu Badshah turning socialist, or do you think he means it? Comments on his address at Davos welcome: http://gw.vtrenz.net/?GR8AGJXES2:GR8AGJXES2=ssID:197738009,email:[EMAIL PROTECTED],mode:live Regards, -- Raju -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ Freedom in Technology Software || February 2008 || http://freed.in/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F PsyTrance Chill: http://schizoid.in/ || It is the mind that moves ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
On 06-Feb-08, at 8:18 AM, Raj Mathur wrote: Is Billu Badshah turning socialist, or do you think he means it? Comments on his address at Davos welcome: http://gw.vtrenz.net/?GR8AGJXES2:GR8AGJXES2=ssID: 197738009,email:[EMAIL PROTECTED],mode:live i dont get the point -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ Foss conference for the common man: http://registration.fossconf.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
On 2/6/08, Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is Billu Badshah turning socialist, or do you think he means it? Comments on his address at Davos welcome: http://gw.vtrenz.net/?GR8AGJXES2:GR8AGJXES2=ssID:197738009,email:[EMAIL PROTECTED],mode:live May be you posted the wrong link. This link invites you to study at Maharishi institute of management. i dont know about billu badshah but MUM seems to be turning socialist. is this offer valid only for you or can any one go. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
On Wednesday 06 Feb 2008, Raj Mathur wrote: Is Billu Badshah turning socialist, or do you think he means it? Comments on his address at Davos welcome: http://gw.vtrenz.net/?GR8AGJXES2:GR8AGJXES2=ssID:197738009,email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -delhi.org,mode:live Regards, -- Raju Oops, sorry, posted the wrong url. The correct one is: http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/exec/billg/speeches/2008/01-24WEFDavos.mspx -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ Freedom in Technology Software || February 2008 || http://freed.in/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F PsyTrance Chill: http://schizoid.in/ || It is the mind that moves ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] Creative Capitalism
On 2/6/08, Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is Billu Badshah turning socialist, or do you think he means it? Comments on his address at Davos welcome: I am quite sure he means it. lots of companies are into compassionate capitalism where they put a part of thier huge earnings into helping the developing nations. HP is one such company which gave digital cameras to villagers in andhra pradesh . quite a few people in america are using this as proof that windows and office are over priced as if they were not he would not have the billions with which to help the developing countries. one person even suggested that since charity begins at home he should reduce the price of his products so that americans can benefit. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Next Event: http://freed.in - February 22-24, 2008 Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
