Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
incal embe8...@student.uu.se writes: To me C-M-i isn't more difficult to type (in a way, it is easier/better as the left index finger can remain at f) As many keys, that depends on your keyboard layout. I use a German variant of the Dvorak layout, and then `C-M-i' basically means pressing three keys with the left hand. Without the configuration, M-tab translates to C-M-i in the Linux VTs. Those keys are both very good, so why have them do the same thing? It is a waste. Because those keys are the same on older terminals. ,[ (info (emacs)Named ASCII Chars) ] | TAB, RET, BS, LFD, ESC and DEL started out as names for | certain ASCII control characters, used so often that they have special | keys of their own. For instance, TAB was another name for ‘C-i’. | Later, users found it convenient to distinguish in Emacs between these | keys and the “same” control characters typed with the Ctrl key. | Therefore, on most modern terminals, they are no longer the same: TAB | is different from ‘C-i’. | |Emacs can distinguish these two kinds of input if the keyboard does. | It treats the “special” keys as function keys named ‘tab’, ‘return’, | ‘backspace’, ‘linefeed’, ‘escape’, and ‘delete’. These function keys | translate automatically into the corresponding ASCII characters _if_ | they have no bindings of their own. As a result, neither users nor Lisp | programs need to pay attention to the distinction unless they care to. | |If you do not want to distinguish between (for example) TAB and | ‘C-i’, make just one binding, for the ASCII character TAB (octal code | 011). If you do want to distinguish, make one binding for this ASCII | character, and another for the “function key” ‘tab’. | |With an ordinary ASCII terminal, there is no way to distinguish | between TAB and ‘C-i’ (and likewise for other such pairs), because the | terminal sends the same character in both cases. ` So you may define different commands for `C-M-i' and M-tab but then on a Linux VT, the `C-M-i' binding will be executed for both pressing `C-M-i' and for Meta+TAB. Bye, Tassilo ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
more keys in a Linux VT (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)
Tassilo Horn t...@gnu.org writes: To me C-M-i isn't more difficult to type (in a way, it is easier/better as the left index finger can remain at f) As many keys, that depends on your keyboard layout. I use a German variant of the Dvorak layout, and then `C-M-i' basically means pressing three keys with the left hand. Yeah, that sucks. I used the Swedish layout many years ago but it really sucks with programming because not the least the Swedish chars å, ä and ö are obstructing the much needed programming delimiters, which must be inserted with combinations: for example, the semicolon doesn't have a designated key. I use the compose key for å, ä and ö, which I only need in the occasional mail. With computers, I'm Anglo-American body and soul by now... Without the configuration, M-tab translates to C-M-i in the Linux VTs. Those keys are both very good, so why have them do the same thing? It is a waste. Because those keys are the same on older terminals. With an ordinary ASCII terminal, there is no way to distinguish between TAB and ‘C-i’ OK, then the Linux VT is neither old nor ordinary ASCII, because that is possible with the method I just showed. ASCII is 7 or 8 bits. Though I can't provide a reference, my gut feeling is the Linux VT is *9 bits*. So technically, that reference might be correct, but in this day and age it is confusing nonetheless. I have, as we speak, in a Linux VT with no tmux/screen or anything on top, the following keys and commands available with no fuss to it: TAB as next-header C-i as new-message C-M-i as scroll-up-pane M-tab as switch-buffer [those are all custom functions] Here is how to do it: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/remap.inc http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/console-keys.el So you may define different commands for `C-M-i' and M-tab but then on a Linux VT, the `C-M-i' binding will be executed for both pressing `C-M-i' and for Meta+TAB. You may define different keys as well in a Linux VT, then the commands won't collide. -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
a...@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes: I don't even delete spam ... (If I miss a legitimate email that ended up in spam, and I need to find it later, I would hate to have deleted it... slight OCD/packrat, I suppose.) There's that, which doesn't have to be a bad thing, but also: if the mail doesn't show up anywhere, I perceive them as virtually deleted. If they are deleted they can still be retrieved, but that would be uncertain and require work. Better to know they are 100% retrievable and then still never do it, anyway. Many people form the Windows world want the Linux (etc.) systems to be clean, minimalist, and so on. This is a misconception, but I understand where it comes from. On a Windows computer there are one thousand things that runs in the so-called background that pops up all the time, and drains your computer of resources, and your mind of mindfulness. However, this isn't the same as having one thousand binaries in /usr/bin or ten thousand mails as textfiles in ~/Mail/mail/misc - and while removing those files will make your system less *powerful*, it won't get any more clean or minimalist. Just sayin' as an example, not applying to anyone in particular. -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Tassilo Horn t...@gnu.org writes: Well, in any programming mode, `M-tab' runs `completion-at-point' or `complete-symbol' which are the main completion functions in emacs. (Actually, that's bound to `C-M-i' but that translates to `M-tab' which is much easier to type.) To me C-M-i isn't more difficult to type (in a way, it is easier/better as the left index finger can remain at f), and it doesn't translate to M-tab, which by the way I had to configure. But now I got suspicious: I'll remove the configuration and see if it still works... -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
incal embe8...@student.uu.se writes:
Well, in any programming mode, `M-tab' runs
`completion-at-point' or `complete-symbol' which
are the main completion functions in emacs.
(Actually, that's bound to `C-M-i' but that
translates to `M-tab' which is much easier to
type.)
To me C-M-i isn't more difficult to type (in a
way, it is easier/better as the left index finger
can remain at f), and it doesn't translate to
M-tab, which by the way I had to configure. But
now I got suspicious: I'll remove the configuration
and see if it still works...
Without the configuration, M-tab translates to
C-M-i in the Linux VTs.
Those keys are both very good, so why have them do the
same thing? It is a waste.
For example, I use C-M-i to scroll a pane (and
M-i to scroll a line), and M-tab to switch between
buffers.
Here is how to get both keys, again in a Linux VT:
In /etc/console-setup/remap.inc
alt keycode 15 = U+1003 # M-TAB
Then execute this function:
lkeys () {
sudo loadkeys --clearcompose --clearstrings \
/etc/console-setup/remap.inc /dev/null
}
Last, in an Emacs init file:
(define-key input-decode-map [?\u1003] [M-tab])
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spam (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: I only keep the really good spam emails. There have been some classics: If your warrior of love is too small, you may lose this war! ... You seem to get a lot of spam. While it is mostly the job of the server software not to propagate it, last line of defense client-side anti-spam is something I would like to have better. I have the KILL file which may look like this: (gnus-kill From \Dealsbycm.se\ '(gnus-summary-mark-as-read nil X) t) ;; etc. (gnus-expunge X) I do like the idea of basing anti-spam on header-value pairs (and regexps), so you can just block them off one by one. (On the server probably something more advanced/powerful and algorithmic is called for, depending on volume.) What I don't like with the KILL file solution is that it is in code (Elisp) contrary to just have a textfile of data. I did some work to automatize it: it works, without giving the impression of being rock-steady. Something like that should definitely be added to Gnus if it isn't already. http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/gnus/lamer.el http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/special/gnus_kill But I do get spam very rarely so someone must be doing something right. -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Tassilo writes: a...@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes: I don't even delete spam. At some future point in time, you might want to come back to these cheap VIAGRA offers? ;-) I'm growing old, you know... ;-) (If I miss a legitimate email that ended up in spam, and I need to find it later, I would hate to have deleted it... slight OCD/packrat, I suppose.) Best regards, Adam -- Unfortunately I do not watch enough television. - Adam Sjøgren Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark toa...@koldfront.dk Danish childrens radio. ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: M-TAB is used for completion in dozens other places in emacs. Really? I don't doubt you, but I'd never run into that before. I've seen lots of ordinary tab completion, but never M-TAB. Well, in any programming mode, `M-tab' runs `completion-at-point' or `complete-symbol' which are the main completion functions in emacs. (Actually, that's bound to `C-M-i' but that translates to `M-tab' which is much easier to type.) You have 3 options: a) Use `ESC TAB' instead of `M-TAB'. That would work. A little awkward, but it would work. b) Use some other key as Meta, e.g., the windows key commonly found on keyboards. X11 on my system is already mapping that as Super, and I'm already using it that way in numerous personal key bindings. (It's convenient that almost nothing in Emacs seems to pre-define it for anything, so it's been a great place to put user defined stuff.) That's true, but OTOH I favor a strict separation of keys, e.g., Control and Meta are reserved for emacs, Super is reserved for the X11 window manager. Bye, Tassilo ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: Winston w...@ubeblock.psr.com.invalid writes: Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp asked: Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away? (After all, they don't even exist anymore...) 'x' ? The reason that (gnus-summary-limit-to-unread) wouldn't work for me is because I'm setup to display old emails in all mail groups. I only limit to unread in newsgroups. So, I'd like a way to get rid of cancelled articles even while read ones are still visible. It's possible there may not be a way to do it, since Gnus seems strongly biased toward treating everything as a newsgroup, and thus may assume that you never see old articles by default, but I thought I'd ask anyway. The 'display' group parameter may help? h atb Glyn ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: Winston w...@ubeblock.psr.com.invalid writes: Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp asked: Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away? (After all, they don't even exist anymore...) 'x' ? The reason that (gnus-summary-limit-to-unread) wouldn't work for me is because I'm setup to display old emails in all mail groups. I only limit to unread in newsgroups. So, I'd like a way to get rid of cancelled articles even while read ones are still visible. It's possible there may not be a way to do it, since Gnus seems strongly biased toward treating everything as a newsgroup, and thus may assume that you never see old articles by default, but I thought I'd ask anyway. Sorry - hit return too soon - here's the link for gnus-parameters http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html atb Glyn ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
a...@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes: Adam, who had to configure alt-tab in his window manager to do as everywhere else, because his colleagues got all confused when borrowing his keyboard/computer. *Laughter* I don't think it would have mattered if I borrowed my computer to Steve Wozniak himself, he'd still have to pick it apart piece by piece before he could make any sense of it! No, not really. It is just Emacs and zsh. A modified Emacs and a modified zsh... -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
new subject (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)
On Sun, Jan 25 2015, incal wrote: Or if it gradually evolved out of the old one but still has some connection, keep the old subject like this Subject: new subject (was: old subject) Yeah, C-c C-f s ! ;) -- Peter ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: Now, I do have another question of course (us Gnus newbies like me have those without end, I'd imagine...) What I can tell there aren't that many Gnus newbies around - I wish there were! - so don't be afraid you'll flood this roup with questions or anything. But if you want to be something more than a newbie, the fool-proof method is acting like a professional right away: start to write more elaborate subjects, that are descriptive of the problem or, well subject in short! - and not ironic in style. And when you have a new question, start a new thread. Or if it gradually evolved out of the old one but still has some connection, keep the old subject like this Subject: new subject (was: old subject) That is typically done when the new subject needs a quotation from the old subject. If not, just create a new subject. Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from the Summary buffer really disappear from view? To me, it is easier not to bother with the expire stuff at all. Just read the the material, or implicitly use use `gnus-summary-mark-as-read-forward' for what you don't want to read, and you are done. Use `gnus-summary-tick-article-forward' for what you want to read, only later, and for what you've read but you want to keep, still (like a mail that contains instructions what/how to do something). When you are done, use `gnus-summary-mark-as-read-forward' to be done with those, too. Here, I mention the command names but that should be close, one-letter keystrokes, of course... -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: new subject (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)
incal embe8...@student.uu.se writes: Indeed, however sometimes you reply to a post the old way, and in mid-edit you realize you are talking about something else. Or do you have a keystroke for that as well? No, it is the other way around, it works the way I thought it didn't, but it doesn't work the way I thought it did. Yes, that makes more sense. -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: new subject (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)
Peter Münster pmli...@free.fr writes: Or if it gradually evolved out of the old one but still has some connection, keep the old subject like this Subject: new subject (was: old subject) Yeah, C-c C-f s ! ;) Indeed, however sometimes you reply to a post the old way, and in mid-edit you realize you are talking about something else. Or do you have a keystroke for that as well? Actually, I do - sort of: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/gnus/moggle.el :) -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp asked: Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away? (After all, they don't even exist anymore...) 'x' ? -WBE ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru writes: a...@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes: Where in BBDB was this M-TAB business annoying you? Well, it's not anymore! I understand that, but TAB works for me with v2, as I explained, so I was wondering exactly where it did not work for you. Maybe we are using bbdb in different ways. As I've said, I'm on v3 now. I'm not going back to v2 to look more at its behavior, because it's moot to me now. Problem solved! That's fine, I was just curious to where it didn't work for you, as it works for me - I wasn't asking you to go back to v2, just to tell me where it didn't work from memory. Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from the Summary buffer really disappear from view? I have no idea, I have never used expiration - harddisks/SSDs have been big enough for such a long time that I have never felt the need to delete email. I don't even delete spam. Best regards, Adam -- I har jo brug for en mand til at samle det hele - Adam Sjøgren inden I går endnu mere i opløsning! a...@koldfront.dk ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Winston w...@ubeblock.psr.com.invalid writes: Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp asked: Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away? (After all, they don't even exist anymore...) 'x' ? The reason that (gnus-summary-limit-to-unread) wouldn't work for me is because I'm setup to display old emails in all mail groups. I only limit to unread in newsgroups. So, I'd like a way to get rid of cancelled articles even while read ones are still visible. It's possible there may not be a way to do it, since Gnus seems strongly biased toward treating everything as a newsgroup, and thus may assume that you never see old articles by default, but I thought I'd ask anyway. -- He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
a...@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes: Hikaru writes: The suggested workarounds are to rebind the ispell key (the BBDB binding is not configurable at this time). I don't know what configurable means here - when I type the beginning of an email address in, say, the To: line and press TAB, I get completion. This is with BBDB version 2.36. Where in BBDB was this M-TAB business annoying you? Well, it's not anymore! As I've said, I'm on v3 now. I'm not going back to v2 to look more at its behavior, because it's moot to me now. Problem solved! The configurable comment above is quoted from the BBDB v2 manual. Now, I do have another question of course (us Gnus newbies like me have those without end, I'd imagine...): Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from the Summary buffer really disappear from view? If I run expiry on them, the E expiry marks are replaced with G cancelled marks. If I run any of the various really delete commands on them (such as gnus-summary-delete-article), same thing, G cancelled, but still there, even though it points to nothing. Most surprisingly, if I run gnus-summary-reselect-current-group, a command that's described in the manual as being just like leaving the group and re-entering it without having to actually do that, it does exactly the same thing -- all expired articles are still visible with cancelled marks on them, even though if I had truly left and re-entered, they'd be gone from my display. Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away? (After all, they don't even exist anymore...) -- He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru writes: The suggested workarounds are to rebind the ispell key (the BBDB binding is not configurable at this time). I don't know what configurable means here - when I type the beginning of an email address in, say, the To: line and press TAB, I get completion. This is with BBDB version 2.36. Where in BBDB was this M-TAB business annoying you? Best regards, Adam, who had to configure alt-tab in his window manager to do as everywhere else, because his colleagues got all confused when borrowing his keyboard/computer. -- Archbishop of anarchy Adam Sjøgren a...@koldfront.dk ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: In bug #1, M-TAB conflicts with ispell That's good news, a bug can be fixed and this one already is you just said (?). (and they could have also mentioned, the window-switching keys of half the desktop managers in existence, but they didn't mention that), they say: Window manager I think if you mean openbox, metacity, and those. But those designations are too similar, too much intersection and that doesn't say much, yeah. But that is nothing to think about, I think, the important thing is everything is configurable the way YOU want it. I have come across many, many variables and settings that I don't understand why my value isn't the default, but I don't care as long as I can change it. Only for PR reasons with newcomers who are perhaps not inclined to put hours on their systems, which I don't mind (on the contrary), that's the only thing, otherwise what does it matter what key it is or function name or background color or whatever as long as you can change it? Isn't that the only way, and the easiest way as well, to potentially everyone can be happy with their software? -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
On 23 Jan 2015, ichi...@macross.sdf.jp wrote: The real gist of my question was that one's window manager (kwin, WindowMaker, etc.) will almost certainly just think of Alt as Alt, and won't care for what historical reason Emacs wants Alt-Tab (um, Meta-Tab). I use ALt as Meta. My solution is to bind all of my window management keys to use WIN as the modifier. So there is no possible conflict with Emacs. Charles -- If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot of different places, just write a Unix operating system. (By Linus Torvalds) signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB. Completion sucks anyway. Setup aliases and type the aliases instead: style, precision, speed. Like this: ;; For example, for mail addresses, .mailrc can look ;; like this: ;; ;; alias johnJohn DiFool dif...@incal.com ;; alias kateKatherine Moss mo...@km.com ;; alias friends john kate ;; ;; For Usenet groups, setup ordinary abbrevs: ;; ;; (let*((write '( ... )) ; other abbrevs ;; (groups '((geh gnu.emacs.help) ;; (geg gnu.emacs.gnus) ;; ; ... ;; (ges gnu.emacs.sources))) ;; (both (append write groups))) ;; (define-abbrev-table 'global-abbrev-table both) ) That's just...amazing. Really. The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is not the only platform where that's used for windows switching. It's also true in WindowMaker (which I use), KDE, Gnome, and if I remember correctly, CDE (which kills any idea that maybe they were only thinking of commercial UNIX). This rant is a waste of energy - just set the keys to whatever you want. And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it. Really? Can you quote that? -- underground experts united ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
incal embe8...@student.uu.se writes: Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB. Completion sucks anyway. Setup aliases and type the aliases instead: style, precision, speed. All my problems went away today when I upgraded to v3. I had been trying to use v2, since officially the newer one is unstable. And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it. Really? Can you quote that? http://bbdb.sourceforge.net/bbdb.html#SEC83 In bug #1, M-TAB conflicts with ispell (and they could have also mentioned, the window-switching keys of half the desktop managers in existence, but they didn't mention that), they say: The suggested workarounds are to rebind the ispell key (the BBDB binding is not configurable at this time). It doesn't matter because I think all of this refers to v2. BBDB v3 doesn't have a proper Info manual yet, and it tab completes with just TAB, no M-TAB needed. Looking forward to the v3 manual! -- He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB. That's just...amazing. Really. The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is not the only platform where that's used for windows switching. M-TAB is used for completion in dozens other places in emacs. What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days? You have 3 options: a) Use `ESC TAB' instead of `M-TAB'. b) Use some other key as Meta, e.g., the windows key commonly found on keyboards. c) Use another key for window manager window handling. I go with option c) and use the windows key for that. The reason is that Alt is better to type and I use emacs keys much more often than window manager shortcuts. Really...even in the 1990's, in the days of HPUX/CDE workstations and Motif X11 toolkits...Alt-Tab? Really? When was that ever a good idea for an application key binding? Not sure, but I guess emacs used M-TAB for completion purposes even before that. Bye, Tassilo ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Pascal J. Bourguignon p...@informatimago.com writes: You seem to be very confused. Probably... The key binding for name completion is Meta Tab, M-TAB, not Alt Tab A-TAB. Perhaps your keyboard is ill-configured too. You should ask advice on how to map a meta- modifier key disctinct from the alt- modifier key (if you needed the later at all) I do know about the history of Emacs and Lisp...and space cadet keyboards, and the Meta, Super, Hyper keys... But really... On a modern x86 Intel-based PC (which is what probably over 90% of users running Emacs today are using), Meta is your Alt key. We can all swear an oath to always call it Meta out of deference to Richard Stallman and very expensive rackmount machines in the 70's that were purpose-built to run Lisp, but...oh come on, it's your Alt key, right? The real gist of my question was that one's window manager (kwin, WindowMaker, etc.) will almost certainly just think of Alt as Alt, and won't care for what historical reason Emacs wants Alt-Tab (um, Meta-Tab). -- He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: Pascal J. Bourguignon p...@informatimago.com writes: You seem to be very confused. Probably... The key binding for name completion is Meta Tab, M-TAB, not Alt Tab A-TAB. Perhaps your keyboard is ill-configured too. You should ask advice on how to map a meta- modifier key disctinct from the alt- modifier key (if you needed the later at all) I do know about the history of Emacs and Lisp...and space cadet keyboards, and the Meta, Super, Hyper keys... But really... On a modern x86 Intel-based PC (which is what probably over 90% of users running Emacs today are using), Meta is your Alt key. We can all swear an oath to always call it Meta out of deference to Richard Stallman and very expensive rackmount machines in the 70's that were purpose-built to run Lisp, but...oh come on, it's your Alt key, right? The real gist of my question was that one's window manager (kwin, WindowMaker, etc.) will almost certainly just think of Alt as Alt, and won't care for what historical reason Emacs wants Alt-Tab (um, Meta-Tab). On modern keyboards, you have 10 modifier keys. You can map, for example: ! Control ! ShiftShift ! Multi_key Alt MetaMeta AltGr Hyper Control Another option would be closer to Space Cadet: ! Control ! ShiftShift ! Hyper super Meta Control Meta super Hyper -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ “The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Tassilo Horn t...@gnu.org writes: M-TAB is used for completion in dozens other places in emacs. Really? I don't doubt you, but I'd never run into that before. I've seen lots of ordinary tab completion, but never M-TAB. You have 3 options: a) Use `ESC TAB' instead of `M-TAB'. That would work. A little awkward, but it would work. b) Use some other key as Meta, e.g., the windows key commonly found on keyboards. X11 on my system is already mapping that as Super, and I'm already using it that way in numerous personal key bindings. (It's convenient that almost nothing in Emacs seems to pre-define it for anything, so it's been a great place to put user defined stuff.) c) Use another key for window manager window handling. Most of them will let you move their window switching key to something else...but why should I have to? Most Emacs apps let you change your key bindings almost infinitely. Not sure, but I guess emacs used M-TAB for completion purposes even before that. Yes, I'm sure that's it. Emacs has *old* roots. Anyway, I think my problem was that I was trying to run BBDB v2. It looks like the new rewritten version does completion with tab alone. -- He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
alt-tab? really? you're joking...
I've pretty much settled into Gnus now, to the point where everything else feels silly, so I thought I'd start adding BBDB integration. It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB. That's just...amazing. Really. The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is not the only platform where that's used for windows switching. It's also true in WindowMaker (which I use), KDE, Gnome, and if I remember correctly, CDE (which kills any idea that maybe they were only thinking of commercial UNIX). And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it. I did find an example online of how you might rebind the key for Wanderlust, but the example seemed fairly specific to Wanderlust. What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days? Also, I should note that I'm running BBDB 2.35 and not the new 3.x rewrite, since the web site warns loudly that it's alpha alpha alpha! (Should I be running 3.x anyway?) Really...even in the 1990's, in the days of HPUX/CDE workstations and Motif X11 toolkits...Alt-Tab? Really? When was that ever a good idea for an application key binding? -- He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. --Thomas Paine ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
On 22 Jan 2015, ichi...@macross.sdf.jp wrote: I've pretty much settled into Gnus now, to the point where everything else feels silly, so I thought I'd start adding BBDB integration. It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB. That's just...amazing. Really. I have always just use TAB and it works for completing bbdb addresses. What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days? Also, I should note that I'm running BBDB 2.35 and not the new 3.x rewrite, since the web site warns loudly that it's alpha alpha alpha! (Should I be running 3.x anyway?) bbdb3 is very stable. Charles -- Linux is obsolete (Andrew Tanenbaum) signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...
Hikaru Ichijyo ichi...@macross.sdf.jp writes: I've pretty much settled into Gnus now, to the point where everything else feels silly, so I thought I'd start adding BBDB integration. It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB. That's just...amazing. Really. The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is not the only platform where that's used for windows switching. It's also true in WindowMaker (which I use), KDE, Gnome, and if I remember correctly, CDE (which kills any idea that maybe they were only thinking of commercial UNIX). And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it. I did find an example online of how you might rebind the key for Wanderlust, but the example seemed fairly specific to Wanderlust. What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days? Also, I should note that I'm running BBDB 2.35 and not the new 3.x rewrite, since the web site warns loudly that it's alpha alpha alpha! (Should I be running 3.x anyway?) Really...even in the 1990's, in the days of HPUX/CDE workstations and Motif X11 toolkits...Alt-Tab? Really? When was that ever a good idea for an application key binding? You seem to be very confused. The key binding for name completion is Meta Tab, M-TAB, not Alt Tab A-TAB. Perhaps your keyboard is ill-configured too. You should ask advice on how to map a meta- modifier key disctinct from the alt- modifier key (if you needed the later at all) -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ “The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk ___ info-gnus-english mailing list info-gnus-english@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-gnus-english
