Re: [ipv6-wg] Clear Guidance for Enterprises
Hi, On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 07:53:48PM +, Ole Troan (otroan) wrote: > Thought experiment. > IPv6 wasn?t invented. > Would we be able to make IPv4 continue to roll down the hill for another 25 > years? Whether there's 3 or 4 layers of NAT won't matter much... everything that is not TCP or UDP won't survive, but since The Browser Oligopol seems to be set to move everything into QUIC anyway, we should be fine... It will nicely kill everything that is not Cloud or Rendezvous-Server- based, but there's quite a few parties outside that would consider this a feature. So yes. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ipv6-wg
Re: [ipv6-wg] Clear Guidance for Enterprises
Hi, On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 07:00:48PM +0100, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Gert Doering wrote on 03/06/2023 13:33: > > So how do we get there? > > We got where we are now because there are compelling reasons to deploy > ipv4, but not compelling reasons to deploy ipv6. On "the wild Internet", I agree with you - we're not at the point yet where you can do fully without IPv4 (even if CGN'ed). Going back to the Subject: of this thread, inside sufficiently large Enterprise networks, the hidden costs of IPv4 (multiple layers of inside NAT44, lack of proper network visibility, much more complex debugging) are sufficiently high that at least *some* networks already felt compelled to go IPv6-only, in their internal networks. (Dual-stack is not very interesting on the inside) So - how do we send out this message, so it can be heard and understood? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ipv6-wg
Re: [ipv6-wg] Clear Guidance for Enterprises
Gert Doering wrote on 03/06/2023 13:33: So how do we get there? We got where we are now because there are compelling reasons to deploy ipv4, but not compelling reasons to deploy ipv6. IPv4 is the stone that rolled down the hill; ipv6 is the stone that, 25 years later, people are still trying to roll up the hill. What's surprising is that some people are still surprised that ipv6 won't roll itself up the hill after 25 years of resolutely not doing this by itself. > So, what else can we do? Supportive / constructive mandates level out the upwards slope on the ipv6 hill, a little. Destructive mandates - e.g. "governments should withdraw ipv4 services" - are more like suggestions to get out a digger and change the slope of the hill so that the boulder will roll up it. The only outcome from this sort of approach will be expense, a mixture of bemusement and rage from bystanders, and ultimate failure. Nick -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ipv6-wg
Re: [ipv6-wg] Clear Guidance for Enterprises
Hi, On Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 11:15:51PM +, Jordan A. Borgner wrote: > Companies just need to _feel_ that IPv4 isn't going to get them very far > anymore and that it's better to prepare for the future now because its > better to have options rather than to need them when the time has come. So how do we get there? I think we tried "preaching" for a very long time (did not work), "help with procurement policies so at least equipment vendors get the message" (did work to some extent), "mandating" (US Govt, but enterprises will only take note for those bits that they want to sell to the US Govt)... The market has tried "make IPv4 insanely expensive", and corporate mergers/acquisitions have tried "make IPv4 operationally very hard, with packets going through 3 NAT44 devices *inside* the corp network", and even that has failed to send the message "IPv4 has no future". So, what else can we do? Gert Doering -- IPv6 preacher man -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ipv6-wg
