Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-07 Thread STEVE 

The John Bryant article on "over the shoulder" can be found at:



He does not test BOGs in his article, though.

As a probably unrelated note, when I lived at the rural place in Oregon 
I had a 1600' E/W unterminated longwire that received "over the 
shoulder" in the west direction. That was the only implementation I 
could construct. My main interest was Pacific LF NDBs (from the west), 
thus everything was "over the shoulder". I routinely received faint 
Pacific NDBs with that setup and it was the very best Pacific LF antenna 
I've ever had the pleasure of using. Of course I had nothing I could 
compare with a regular west-pointed antenna of comparable length so I'll 
never know how much better such an antenna might have been.


73,

Steve AA7U

On 11/7/2018 5:29 PM, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Nick -


Hoping I remember all the details correctly as I don't have time right now to 
re-read things


Luis has put this data on the web before and claimed "resonance". Someone then 
educated him that current peaks and resonance are not synonyms,


My recollection is that the subject of current peaks was well covered and 
analyzed by Beverage in his 1923 AIEE paper.


I see no reference to Beverage's work so assume Luis did not explore that area. I saw no 
numbers to serve as a basis for "resonance" - some L and C values would be 
helpful.


But we stray from the original question : how much loss is there in a non-terminated BOG 
/ Beverage? Some have compared "over the shoulder" versus normal wires, 
including John Bryant. Assuming I recall correctly, he found that over the shoulder had 
some feasibility as the loss was some 5 to 10 dB.


Chuck


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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-07 Thread Nick Hall-Patch 




You and me both, concerning re-reading things, Chuck, as I too recall 
Beverage discussing current peaks, but thought I recalled that they 
smoothed out when the antenna was properly terminated.


At any rate, it's "angels dancing on the point of a pin" territory 
for me at the moment, at least until I went back and did some serious reading.


In the meantime, I think Russ said it best:

The name "BOG" came from "Beveridge -on-Ground", and indeed one of 
adequate length should behave similarly.




Nick



But, again, without looking it At 00:29 2018-11-08, Chuck Hutton wrote:

Nick -


Hoping I remember all the details correctly as I don't have time 
right now to re-read things



Luis has put this data on the web before and claimed "resonance". 
Someone then educated him that current peaks and resonance are not synonyms,



My recollection is that the subject of current peaks was well 
covered and analyzed by Beverage in his 1923 AIEE paper.



I see no reference to Beverage's work so assume Luis did not explore 
that area. I saw no numbers to serve as a basis for "resonance" - 
some L and C values would be helpful.



But we stray from the original question : how much loss is there in 
a non-terminated BOG / Beverage? Some have compared "over the 
shoulder" versus normal wires, including John Bryant. Assuming I 
recall correctly, he found that over the shoulder had some 
feasibility as the loss was some 5 to 10 dB.



Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick 
Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 5:33 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Thanks Chuck; I knew I could bring you out of the woodwork.

There's been a fair bit of hand-waving on the topband list about the
BOG over the years, partly because anecdotally, either they "don't
work", or that they have very good F/B.  K2AV has done a lot of
measurements, and seems to conclude that a proper BOG (not a wire
near dry ground) is actually a resonant
antenna,   http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm puts forth the same
IV3PRK Pierluigi "Luis" Mansutti (ex 
HC1PF)<http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm>

www.iv3prk.it
Quite simple to select another of the several options in the 
"Custom" sheet of AutoEZ to get the following graph, which indicates 
that's much better to go towards a shorter length.. So moved the 
sweep a bit down and this is the F/B of a BOG 63 meters long, 3 cm. 
high, with a 250 ohms load and two sets of radials.An impressive F/B 
of 45 dB is peaking at a radial length of 20 meters.




idea.  This is for the limited frequency range of 160m; the entire MW
band might prove interesting depending on length, ground conductivity etc.

I'd assume that a BOG at Grayland especially in the summer would act
more like a Beverage.   Did you ever compare a "BOG" with a raised wire there?

Nick


At 00:18 2018-11-07, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>I don't see the self-terminating thing.
>
>
>It seems to me (unscientifically) that the losses are maybe 5 to 7
>dB. That's a far cry from the 30 or more dB loss in a properly
>terminated system.
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick
>Hall-Patch 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:54 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; h
>Walter Salmaniw
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
>
>Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200
>ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).
>
>I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as
>there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Nick
>
>
>At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
> >It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you
> >terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception
> >pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for
> >stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that
> >the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but
> >nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Russ Edmunds
> >
> >WB2BJH
> >
> >Blue Bell, PA
> >
> >Grid FN20id
> >
> >
> >From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin
> >Newell 
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America;
> Walter Salmaniw
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
> >
> >Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:
> >
> > > Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' lo

Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-07 Thread Chuck Hutton 
Nick -


Hoping I remember all the details correctly as I don't have time right now to 
re-read things


Luis has put this data on the web before and claimed "resonance". Someone then 
educated him that current peaks and resonance are not synonyms,


My recollection is that the subject of current peaks was well covered and 
analyzed by Beverage in his 1923 AIEE paper.


I see no reference to Beverage's work so assume Luis did not explore that area. 
I saw no numbers to serve as a basis for "resonance" - some L and C values 
would be helpful.


But we stray from the original question : how much loss is there in a 
non-terminated BOG / Beverage? Some have compared "over the shoulder" versus 
normal wires, including John Bryant. Assuming I recall correctly, he found that 
over the shoulder had some feasibility as the loss was some 5 to 10 dB.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 5:33 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Thanks Chuck; I knew I could bring you out of the woodwork.

There's been a fair bit of hand-waving on the topband list about the
BOG over the years, partly because anecdotally, either they "don't
work", or that they have very good F/B.  K2AV has done a lot of
measurements, and seems to conclude that a proper BOG (not a wire
near dry ground) is actually a resonant
antenna,   http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm puts forth the same
IV3PRK Pierluigi "Luis" Mansutti (ex 
HC1PF)<http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm>
www.iv3prk.it
Quite simple to select another of the several options in the “Custom” sheet of 
AutoEZ to get the following graph, which indicates that’s much better to go 
towards a shorter length.. So moved the sweep a bit down and this is the F/B of 
a BOG 63 meters long, 3 cm. high, with a 250 ohms load and two sets of 
radials.An impressive F/B of 45 dB is peaking at a radial length of 20 meters.



idea.  This is for the limited frequency range of 160m; the entire MW
band might prove interesting depending on length, ground conductivity etc.

I'd assume that a BOG at Grayland especially in the summer would act
more like a Beverage.   Did you ever compare a "BOG" with a raised wire there?

Nick


At 00:18 2018-11-07, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>I don't see the self-terminating thing.
>
>
>It seems to me (unscientifically) that the losses are maybe 5 to 7
>dB. That's a far cry from the 30 or more dB loss in a properly
>terminated system.
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick
>Hall-Patch 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:54 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; h
>Walter Salmaniw
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
>
>Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200
>ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).
>
>I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as
>there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Nick
>
>
>At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
> >It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you
> >terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception
> >pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for
> >stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that
> >the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but
> >nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Russ Edmunds
> >
> >WB2BJH
> >
> >Blue Bell, PA
> >
> >Grid FN20id
> >
> >
> >From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin
> >Newell 
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America;
> Walter Salmaniw
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
> >
> >Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:
> >
> > > Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very
> pleased.  Good
> > > for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
> ><http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
>CoffeeCrew 2018<http://www.coffeecrew.com/>
>www.coffeecrew.com<http://www.coffeecrew.com>
>Home of the Coffeecrew website - Alive and well since 1996! Canadian
>coffee expert.
>
>
>
> >VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
> >__

Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Mark Connelly via IRCA 
--- Begin Message ---
I find it interesting that a very similar BOG / receiving antenna discussion is 
also going on with the Topband reflector.

There's a fair amount of belief that terminated loops in a phased array or just 
a single double loop style (DHDL, DKAZ, Bowtie, Waller Flag) can deliver as 
good or better RDF (directivity figure of merit) as a single BOG / Beverage on 
an equivalent size piece of land.  Staggered phased Beverages are likely 
another matter.

Neil Kazaross in IL makes use of both terminated loops and BOG's and I believe 
Tim Tromp in MI does too.  Perhaps Mark Durenberger and Walter Salmaniw as well.

Comments from those guys and others could be valuable.

I believe both types of antennas are presently in use by the PEI DXpedition..

Mark Connelly, WA1ION
South Yarmouth, MA--- End Message ---
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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Russ Edmunds 
IN its basic sense, the name "BOG" came from "Beveridge -on-Ground", and indeed 
one of adequate length should behave similarly.


I don't know either of the two people you mentioned, but any of my interactions 
with 160 meter guys  have resulted in some very strange ideas



Russ Edmunds

WB2BJH

Blue Bell, PA

Grid FN20id


From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 8:33:49 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Thanks Chuck; I knew I could bring you out of the woodwork.

There's been a fair bit of hand-waving on the topband list about the
BOG over the years, partly because anecdotally, either they "don't
work", or that they have very good F/B.  K2AV has done a lot of
measurements, and seems to conclude that a proper BOG (not a wire
near dry ground) is actually a resonant
antenna,   http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm puts forth the same
idea.  This is for the limited frequency range of 160m; the entire MW
band might prove interesting depending on length, ground conductivity etc.

I'd assume that a BOG at Grayland especially in the summer would act
more like a Beverage.   Did you ever compare a "BOG" with a raised wire there?

Nick


At 00:18 2018-11-07, Chuck Hutton wrote:
>I don't see the self-terminating thing.
>
>
>It seems to me (unscientifically) that the losses are maybe 5 to 7
>dB. That's a far cry from the 30 or more dB loss in a properly
>terminated system.
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick
>Hall-Patch 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:54 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; h
>Walter Salmaniw
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
>
>Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200
>ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).
>
>I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as
>there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.
>
>best wishes,
>
>Nick
>
>
>At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
> >It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you
> >terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception
> >pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for
> >stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that
> >the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but
> >nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Russ Edmunds
> >
> >WB2BJH
> >
> >Blue Bell, PA
> >
> >Grid FN20id
> >
> >
> >From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin
> >Newell 
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
> >To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America;
> Walter Salmaniw
> >Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
> >
> >Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?
> >
> >On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:
> >
> > > Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very
> pleased.  Good
> > > for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
> ><http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
>CoffeeCrew 2018<http://www.coffeecrew.com/>
>www.coffeecrew.com<http://www.coffeecrew.com>
>Home of the Coffeecrew website - Alive and well since 1996! Canadian
>coffee expert.
>
>
>
> >VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
> >___
> >IRCA mailing list
> >IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
> >http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca
> >
> >Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> >original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
> >the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
> >
> >For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
> >
> >To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
> >
> >___
> >IRCA mailing list
> >IRCA@hard-core-dx.com
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> >Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the
> >original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of
> >the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
> >
> >For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org
> >
> >To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
>
>Nick Hall-Patch
>Victoria,

Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Nick Hall-Patch 

Thanks Chuck; I knew I could bring you out of the woodwork.

There's been a fair bit of hand-waving on the topband list about the 
BOG over the years, partly because anecdotally, either they "don't 
work", or that they have very good F/B.  K2AV has done a lot of 
measurements, and seems to conclude that a proper BOG (not a wire 
near dry ground) is actually a resonant 
antenna,   http://www.iv3prk.it/bog-modeling.htm puts forth the same 
idea.  This is for the limited frequency range of 160m; the entire MW 
band might prove interesting depending on length, ground conductivity etc.


I'd assume that a BOG at Grayland especially in the summer would act 
more like a Beverage.   Did you ever compare a "BOG" with a raised wire there?


Nick


At 00:18 2018-11-07, Chuck Hutton wrote:

I don't see the self-terminating thing.


It seems to me (unscientifically) that the losses are maybe 5 to 7 
dB. That's a far cry from the 30 or more dB loss in a properly 
terminated system.



Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick 
Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:54 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; h 
Walter Salmaniw

Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200
ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).

I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as
there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.

best wishes,

Nick


At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
>It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you
>terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception
>pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for
>stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that
>the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but
>nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.
>
>
>
>Russ Edmunds
>
>WB2BJH
>
>Blue Bell, PA
>
>Grid FN20id
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin
>Newell 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; 
Walter Salmaniw

>Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
>
>Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?
>
>On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:
>
> > Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very 
pleased.  Good

> > for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
> >
> >
>--
>Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
><http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
CoffeeCrew 2018<http://www.coffeecrew.com/>
www.coffeecrew.com
Home of the Coffeecrew website - Alive and well since 1996! Canadian 
coffee expert.




>VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
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>the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers
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>
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>
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Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada

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Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 


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Opinion

Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Russ Edmunds 
My experience is exclusively on a sand beach. We found early on that a normal 
ground wouldn't work. We ultimately ended up with a fan of 4 radials through, 
IIRC about 220 ohms.  We haven't been able to use BOG's since Hurricane Sandy 
several years back. We had one running up the coast ( 37 degrees) and the other 
down coast ( 217 ) and they were indeed directional at 800-1000 feet.

We even had success at 500' but the pattern was broader.



Russ Edmunds

WB2BJH

Blue Bell, PA

Grid FN20id


From: IRCA  on behalf of Chuck Hutton 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 7:18:49 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

I don't see the self-terminating thing.


It seems to me (unscientifically) that the losses are maybe 5 to 7 dB. That's a 
far cry from the 30 or more dB loss in a properly terminated system.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:54 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; h Walter Salmaniw
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200
ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).

I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as
there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.

best wishes,

Nick


At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
>It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you
>terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception
>pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for
>stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that
>the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but
>nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.
>
>
>
>Russ Edmunds
>
>WB2BJH
>
>Blue Bell, PA
>
>Grid FN20id
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin
>Newell 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; Walter Salmaniw
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
>
>Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?
>
>On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:
>
> > Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very pleased.  Good
> > for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
> >
> >
>--
>Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
><http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
CoffeeCrew 2018<http://www.coffeecrew.com/>
www.coffeecrew.com<http://www.coffeecrew.com>
Home of the Coffeecrew website - Alive and well since 1996! Canadian coffee 
expert.



>VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
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>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
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>
>To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com

Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada

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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Chuck Hutton 
I don't see the self-terminating thing.


It seems to me (unscientifically) that the losses are maybe 5 to 7 dB. That's a 
far cry from the 30 or more dB loss in a properly terminated system.


Chuck



From: IRCA  on behalf of Nick Hall-Patch 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:54 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; h Walter Salmaniw
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200
ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).

I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as
there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.

best wishes,

Nick


At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
>It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you
>terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception
>pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for
>stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that
>the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but
>nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.
>
>
>
>Russ Edmunds
>
>WB2BJH
>
>Blue Bell, PA
>
>Grid FN20id
>
>
>From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin
>Newell 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
>To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; Walter Salmaniw
>Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
>
>Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?
>
>On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:
>
> > Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very pleased.  Good
> > for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
> >
> >
>--
>Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
><http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
CoffeeCrew 2018<http://www.coffeecrew.com/>
www.coffeecrew.com
Home of the Coffeecrew website - Alive and well since 1996! Canadian coffee 
expert.



>VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
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Victoria, BC
Canada

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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Nick Hall-Patch 
Have you had success terminating a BOG Russ?   (supposedly it is ~200 
ohms, rather than the raised Beverage's ~450 ohms).


I think some have found that it is self terminating, to a degree, as 
there is quite a bit of loss on reflected signals.


best wishes,

Nick


At 20:07 2018-11-06, Russ Edmunds wrote:
It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you 
terminate a BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception 
pattern in favor of the terminated end. If you're looking for 
stations from the N, then terminate at the N end. In the event that 
the desired result is an antenna which receives both N and S but 
nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.




Russ Edmunds

WB2BJH

Blue Bell, PA

Grid FN20id


From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin 
Newell 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; Walter Salmaniw
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:

> Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very pleased.  Good
> for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
>
>
--
Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
<http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
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Victoria, BC
Canada 


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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Russ Edmunds 
It isn't a dumb question because the answer is yes and no. If you terminate a 
BOG at one end, that should more focus the reception pattern in favor of the 
terminated end. If you're looking for stations from the N, then terminate at 
the N end. In the event that the desired result is an antenna which receives 
both N and S but nulls E and W, then you lay it out N-S and do not terminate it.



Russ Edmunds

WB2BJH

Blue Bell, PA

Grid FN20id


From: IRCA  on behalf of R. Colin Newell 

Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:53:57 PM
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America; Walter Salmaniw
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question

Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:

> Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very pleased.  Good
> for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
>
>
--
Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
<http://www.Coffeecrew.com> and DXer.ca <http://www.DXer.ca> -
VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread R. Colin Newell 
Dumb question --- Do BOG's get a termination?

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:52 AM Volodya S  wrote:

> Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very pleased.  Good
> for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt
>
>
-- 
Colin Newell - Editor and creator *of *Coffeecrew.com
 and DXer.ca  -
VA7WWV | Twitter @CoffeeCrew | Victoria - Canada
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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Volodya S 
Stephen, my BOGs in Masset are about 750' long and I'm very pleased.  Good
for all Asia as well as Australia/New Zealand.73, Walt

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 12:38 PM Stephen Hawkins  wrote:

> IRCA,
>
> BOG users, how long do you make yours?  I keep hearing from other Hams
> that for 160m between 150 to 200 feet.  I seem to remember hearing on
> here about some that were much longer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
> --
> Stephen Hawkins NG0G
> n...@arrl.net
> 73 49 111 01001001
>
>
>
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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Russ Edmunds 
160 meters, being above the AM/MW band could be effective at somewhat
shorter distances than for AM/MW, but 150-200' isn't really a BOG (
Beveridge on Ground ) it's a longwire. A BOG needs to be upwards of 500' I
would think. I've used BOG's on MW/AM ranging anywhere from 500' to 1200'.
The main difference as the length goes up is that the antenna's pattern
becomes tighter.

Russ Edmunds






On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:49 AM Brett Saylor  wrote:

> I've used BOGs that were 800 - 1000 feet on MW, and they worked very well.
>
> Brett Saylor W3SWL
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:38 AM Stephen Hawkins  wrote:
>
> > IRCA,
> >
> > BOG users, how long do you make yours?  I keep hearing from other Hams
> > that for 160m between 150 to 200 feet.  I seem to remember hearing on
> > here about some that were much longer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --
> > Stephen Hawkins NG0G
> > n...@arrl.net
> > 73 49 111 01001001
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Brett Saylor 
I've used BOGs that were 800 - 1000 feet on MW, and they worked very well.

Brett Saylor W3SWL

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:38 AM Stephen Hawkins  wrote:

> IRCA,
>
> BOG users, how long do you make yours?  I keep hearing from other Hams
> that for 160m between 150 to 200 feet.  I seem to remember hearing on
> here about some that were much longer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
> --
> Stephen Hawkins NG0G
> n...@arrl.net
> 73 49 111 01001001
>
>
>
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[IRCA] BOG question

2018-11-06 Thread Stephen Hawkins 

IRCA,

BOG users, how long do you make yours?  I keep hearing from other Hams 
that for 160m between 150 to 200 feet.  I seem to remember hearing on 
here about some that were much longer.


Thanks,

Steve

--
Stephen Hawkins NG0G
n...@arrl.net
73 49 111 01001001



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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2009-12-05 Thread Rick Kunath 
On Friday 04 December 2009 01:01:39 pm Nick Hall-Patch wrote:
 Both radios have two terminals, which one would I
 put the end of the BOG into (not using coax)?  An old Hallicrafters that
 I had as a kid had a similar A1 / A2 setup and a little metal blade
 that would short out A2, if desired.  Would plugging the BOG wire
 directly into one would work and would I need to do a small jumper from
 that one to the other one (A2)?  Thanks.


This was a common setup on receivers that were designed to use either a 
balanced or an unbalanced antenna.

The A1 and A2 terminals go (via the band switch) to the antenna winding on the 
receiver RF amplifier circuit's input coil. These receivers brought both sides 
of the antenna input winding of this coil to the rear panel, so that the user 
could select the appropriate configuration.

For a balanced antenna, the ground strap is omitted and the antenna connected 
to A1 and A2. 

If the antenna is unbalanced, the antenna (usually, but it generally does not 
matter) goes to the A1 terminal. The A2 terminal, the other side of the 
antenna coupling winding, is shorted to ground by the A2-Ground jumper. If an 
external ground was used for the antenna, then the ground connection was 
generally made to the A2 terminal and the chassis ground jumper omitted.

But again, test it for the best signal on any given antenna.

What the A2-Ground jumper is doing is providing a return connection for the 
(unused on a single wire antenna) other connection of the input coupling coil. 
Most of the time, if you omit the jumper, the coupling decreases and the input 
signal levels drop. But again try it. You always get some capacitive coupling 
even with one end of the input coil disconnected.

And with a balanced antenna, the other half of the antenna is providing a 
complimentary current flow into the second terminal of the input coil.

Hope that made sense.

Rick Kunath

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[IRCA] BOG question

2009-12-04 Thread HASCALL, DAVID CIV DFAS 
Let me ask this again:

I've been toying with the idea of getting 5-600' of wire and hooking it
to either my old DX-400 or newer S-350 and heading to the soccer fields,
near work.  I do understand that both radios have built in antennas and
that it would interject some signals too but at least I could orient the
radio to compliment the BOG.  I used the DX-400 with a Sanserino loop in
much the same way.  Both radios have two terminals, which one would I
put the end of the BOG into (not using coax)?  An old Hallicrafters that
I had as a kid had a similar A1 / A2 setup and a little metal blade
that would short out A2, if desired.  Would plugging the BOG wire
directly into one would work and would I need to do a small jumper from
that one to the other one (A2)?  Thanks.

73,
Dave in Indy

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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2009-12-04 Thread Nick Hall-Patch 
At 17:15 12/4/2009, you wrote:
Let me ask this again:

I've been toying with the idea of getting 5-600' of wire and hooking it
to either my old DX-400 or newer S-350 and heading to the soccer fields,
near work.  I do understand that both radios have built in antennas and
that it would interject some signals too but at least I could orient the
radio to compliment the BOG.  I used the DX-400 with a Sanserino loop in
much the same way.  Both radios have two terminals, which one would I
put the end of the BOG into (not using coax)?  An old Hallicrafters that
I had as a kid had a similar A1 / A2 setup and a little metal blade
that would short out A2, if desired.  Would plugging the BOG wire
directly into one would work and would I need to do a small jumper from
that one to the other one (A2)?  Thanks.


Not having a DX400 in front of me Dave may make this an inaccurate answer, but 
isn't A1 the one you want for an unbalanced antenna, with A2 either being to 
a ground rod or left floating if all it does is connect to the radio's internal 
ground?   

The A1/A2 combo that I know is usually matched with another contact that goes 
to the receiver's ground, and the jumper would be between A2 and the ground 
connector (not between A1 and A2 as I read you suggesting).A1/A2 were 
otherwise used with a dipole or other balanced antenna, and there would be no 
jumper to the ground in that case.

Hope that helps.

Nick




*
Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 

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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2009-12-04 Thread neilkaz 
Forgive me as I am not familiar with either one of those rx's. However, you can 
just try and see what works better in the field, or wrap a few turns of the BOG 
around the rx to inductively couple into its internal loopstick.

73 KAZ 

-Original Message-
From: HASCALL, DAVID CIV DFAS david.hasc...@dfas.mil
Sent: Dec 4, 2009 12:15 PM
To: a...@lists.wtfda.info, irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: [IRCA] BOG question

Let me ask this again:

I've been toying with the idea of getting 5-600' of wire and hooking it
to either my old DX-400 or newer S-350 and heading to the soccer fields,
near work.  I do understand that both radios have built in antennas and
that it would interject some signals too but at least I could orient the
radio to compliment the BOG.  I used the DX-400 with a Sanserino loop in
much the same way.  Both radios have two terminals, which one would I
put the end of the BOG into (not using coax)?  An old Hallicrafters that
I had as a kid had a similar A1 / A2 setup and a little metal blade
that would short out A2, if desired.  Would plugging the BOG wire
directly into one would work and would I need to do a small jumper from
that one to the other one (A2)?  Thanks.

73,
Dave in Indy

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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2009-12-04 Thread HASCALL, DAVID CIV DFAS 
Thanks to Neil and Nick for the responses.  Neil - Yes, experimentation
is always an option.  KAZ, thanks - forgot about inductively coupling
it.  That would be the easiest, most fool proof way!

Nick - on the 400 I think just one would be used for an unbalanced
antenna and both would be used for a balanced input, like my old
Sanserino.  Just not sure what to do with the unused terminal, if I was
just using one, as an unbalanced BOG.

73,
Dave 

--

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 13:16:29 -0500 (EST)
From: neilkaz neil...@earthlink.net
To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
irca@hard-core-dx.com, a...@lists.wtfda.info,
irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: Re: [IRCA] BOG question
Message-ID:

29880907.1259950589916.javamail.r...@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.n
et

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Forgive me as I am not familiar with either one of those rx's. However,
you can just try and see what works better in the field, or wrap a few
turns of the BOG around the rx to inductively couple into its internal
loopstick.

73 KAZ 

-Original Message-
From: HASCALL, DAVID CIV DFAS david.hasc...@dfas.mil
Sent: Dec 4, 2009 12:15 PM
To: a...@lists.wtfda.info, irca@hard-core-dx.com
Subject: [IRCA] BOG question

Let me ask this again:

I've been toying with the idea of getting 5-600' of wire and hooking it
to either my old DX-400 or newer S-350 and heading to the soccer
fields,
near work.  I do understand that both radios have built in antennas and
that it would interject some signals too but at least I could orient
the
radio to compliment the BOG.  I used the DX-400 with a Sanserino loop
in
much the same way.  Both radios have two terminals, which one would I
put the end of the BOG into (not using coax)?  An old Hallicrafters
that
I had as a kid had a similar A1 / A2 setup and a little metal blade
that would short out A2, if desired.  Would plugging the BOG wire
directly into one would work and would I need to do a small jumper from
that one to the other one (A2)?  Thanks.

73,
Dave in Indy

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Re: [IRCA] BOG question

2009-12-04 Thread Nick Hall-Patch 
At 19:51 12/4/2009, you wrote:


Nick - on the 400 I think just one would be used for an unbalanced
antenna and both would be used for a balanced input, like my old
Sanserino.  Just not sure what to do with the unused terminal, if I was
just using one, as an unbalanced BOG.


Again, if A2 is connected to internal receiver ground, then there would be no 
need of attaching it to anything, though a small ground rod wouldn't hurt I 
guess.Maybe try it first with a random wire just connected to A1  at home.  
If that brings up signal levels, then use A1 for the BOG, on other connections.

Good luck.

Nick



*
Nick Hall-Patch
Victoria, BC
Canada 

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